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Posted By syr8766 on 05/01/2007 8:59 AM

I forgot to mention the other thing GW is good at: making me unhappy (and unhappiness means I still care!).

Nah, thats the jewish guilt surfacing is all. I know the feeling as I was raised catholic.

I love it when people ask me why I am no longer catholic "Its because i was raised catholic".

Us guilt ridden idealisms love things to Kvetch over.


About the fluff, My GF reads my codicies and rogue trader books and she asks me "Is this the story for that game you play? it really is a good read, I can see why youre so into it because I really like many of these stories myself. A bit gruesome, but interesting all the same. The implied mysteries make me want to explore what it all means further."

Then she picked up a C.S.Goto book and said" :This cant seriously be the standard that game refers to, how the hell did they hire this guy to write for this alternate shared universe?

Doesnt take a brain surgeon or even someone who plays to know that the established fluff is good and that C.S. Goto is killing it.

Advisory on Goto eh? Thanks for the tip.

N

1) Fluff

Simple. The universe it is set in has such a singular vision. As stated before, the scope of it allows almost any narrative or thematic interpretation you like. It's such a large playground for the adventure/fantasy/horror/sci-fi/historical imagination. The ornate background regarding the heresy absolutely plays on mythic levels:

Arthurian Legend
Post-Apocalypse
Lord of the Rings
Wagner's Ring of the Nibelung
Numerous historical elements/cultures
Christianity
Greek mythology
Norse mythology

I could go on and on. I agree the fluff has sort of been eating itself of late, ourobouros-style. They miss Bill King, I guess. But, as Jester said, it can be all things to all people while still retaining a very critical unique flavor. I think that is one of the keys to it's long-term success. It's almost whatever you want it to be, without being bland. That can be seen in how it creative some of the hobbyists are.

2) Models

Hot and cold. One key is how convertable they are, even the metals. Another is the variety. more choice, more chance of striking someone's fancy. And when GW nails a model, they NAIL it. That doesn't mean there isn't some crap in the pile. there is, and there will continue to be.

3) Tying into the fluff a bit are the VISUALS. I have been very impressed with the black and white art produced since 2000 (Dainton, Boyd, the Kopinski's). I will agree it has run it's course a bit, but some of that art is truly fantastic (the Grey Knight from the IA article). Strong, distinct visual concepts.

4) Customer Service - agreed.

5) Hobby support - fluctuates from mediocre to excellent, I admit. But it is a constant drumbeat.

What keeps pulling me back is the ability to make the hobby and universe serve a variety of interests I have.

Posted By Hellfury on 05/01/2007 11:29 AM
About the fluff, My GF reads my codicies and rogue trader books and she asks me "Is this the story for that game you play? it really is a good read, I can see why youre so into it because I really like many of these stories myself. A bit gruesome, but interesting all the same. The implied mysteries make me want to explore what it all means further."

Then she picked up a C.S.Goto book and said" :This cant seriously be the standard that game refers to, how the hell did they hire this guy to write for this alternate shared universe?

Doesnt take a brain surgeon or even someone who plays to know that the established fluff is good and that C.S. Goto is killing it.

That is hilarious HF and oh so true.

As to what I think GW does well, as I've mentioned elsewhere I do think they did a great job at creating an expansive universe for 40k and WHFB that is both broad and flexible enough to encompass just about any theme one can come up with while still fitting in. I even think they still do a decent job managing said background so long as one ignores the turds from Black Library and sticks to the stuff in the codices, army books, main rules and the high quality art/fluff books like the Liber Chaotica and such. And while this might not be popular here, GW is also doing a knock out job with their LotR line and have put out the best Middle Earth figures ever produced bar none.

Excepting the layout of the last two codices, I also think that they have done and are continuing to do the right thing with their art direction, which has everything to do with John Blanche. He might not be the best technical artist, but it is his works and direction which inspires the rest of the creative team. His works along with Ian Miller, Carl Critchlow, Jes Goodwin, Paul Bonner and others are also what sucked me into this hobby in the first place and I'm glad to see that Blanche and Jes still have a home with GW.

GW/Citadel also pushed the envelope of miniature painting, due in no small part to the annual GWHQ Games Day and the mad works of the old studio staff.  Aside from the awful "Red Period" (and even then plenty of people were doing good work), GW was at the cutting edge of miniature modeling & painting up until a few years ago. While the Eldar harlies have been the best stuff I've seen out of the 'Eavy Metal studio in years (and the previews of the new metal Marine vets look promising), more often than not it seems to be some poorly painted and photoshopped travesty.

Unfortunately, that's all that I see GW doing right at the moment. They have huge potential, but their management seems hell bent on doing everything to piss off their customer base and turn away sales. While I quite often bang on Games Workshop, I really do *not* want to see them fail, but if they don't get their act together, start changing things and chipping away at the bad blood they've developed with their fan base, they aren't going to be around much longer.

3 pages so far and with with posts from some of the haters to boot! I'm impressed and take back all the terrible things I said about the posters here at Dakka...

Seriously though, GW does do a lot of things really well, otherwise they wouldn't have lasted for as long as they have. I am constantly amazed by the background and miniatures (especially the new Harlies and all of the terrain so far) and spend more time thinking about Warhammer than is healthy for an adult male.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Posted By Hellfury on 05/01/2007 11:29 AM

Posted By syr8766 on 05/01/2007 8:59 AM

I forgot to mention the other thing GW is good at: making me unhappy (and unhappiness means I still care!).

Nah, thats the jewish guilt surfacing is all. I know the feeling as I was raised catholic.

I love it when people ask me why I am no longer catholic "Its because i was raised catholic".

Us guilt ridden idealisms love things to Kvetch over.


About the fluff, My GF reads my codicies and rogue trader books and she asks me "Is this the story for that game you play? it really is a good read, I can see why youre so into it because I really like many of these stories myself. A bit gruesome, but interesting all the same. The implied mysteries make me want to explore what it all means further."

Then she picked up a C.S.Goto book and said" :This cant seriously be the standard that game refers to, how the hell did they hire this guy to write for this alternate shared universe?

Doesnt take a brain surgeon or even someone who plays to know that the established fluff is good and that C.S. Goto is killing it.

C. S. Goto is the Sci Fi fiction what  William McGonagall is to prose and Coleman Francis is to film and Gary Morely is to miniature sculpting.  How dare you not recognize his wonderful gift!

 Games Workshop makes better Dragons and can mass produce manhands like no one ever has.  I was thinking of doing a Rachel Ray themed High Elf army, Yummo!

fixed your typo.

Posted By Not_Hellfury on 05/01/2007 4:15 PM

Posted By Hellfury on 05/01/2007 11:29 AM

Then she picked up a C.S.Goto book and said" :This cant seriously be the standard that game refers to, how the hell did they hire this guy to write for this alternate shared universe?

Doesnt take a brain surgeon or even someone who plays to know that the established fluff is good and that C.S. Goto is killing it.

C. S. Goto is the Sci Fi fiction what  William McGonagall is to prose and Coleman Francis is to film and Gary Morely is to miniature sculpting.  How dare you not recognize his wonderful gift!

 Games Workshop makes better Dragons and can mass produce manhands like no one ever has.  I was thinking of doing a Rachel Ray themed High Elf army, Yummo!

Oooh, an EVOO Elf Army! Squee!

Things I like, in no particular order...

They're a big company, but they continue to try and be the innovators too. They don't always hit, but they try. Moreso with models than rules. Some recent things that I've really really liked all fit in this category:

New production standards - this is what's allowed them to really pack the sprues lately, with tons of 'extras'. Tyranid hive-things, extra modelling parts with the plastic fantasy war machines, teleport homers with terminators, eldar goodies with the new plastic eldar, etc etc.

New technology for computer-aided sculpting, model design, new paint formulas (I just used the foundation paints for the first time tonight and I'm already wondering how did I manage before them).

They've made an effort to keep pushing the technological edge with what they do, utilizing new technologies. That impresses me.

----

I can always find a game. I hear of these other games, like warmachine, hordes, starship troopers, etc. I've seen them played, at Gen Con. But I don't know anyone else who plays, nor would I be likely to find critical mass to get a group going. I can always find GW gamers. They've figured out that the highest barrier to entry to a high-priced game like this is having people to play with, and they've fostered communities of players. Having an opponent is more important than having the most concise rules.

----

Others have mentioned the customer service. I second that. I've never had a problem returning defective miniatures (defective rules is another matter...) or getting them replaced.

----

Fluff. And models. I've bought armies based on both.

----

Neat hobby stuff. Cities of Death buildings are a load of fun. The little extras - hero basing kits, objective markers, new fantasy buildings coming out. They're making an effort to make the table you play on as much a part of the universe as the models. I like that too.

Posted By Da Boss on 05/01/2007 2:45 AM
I like the way they weren't afraid to make multiple scales of game in the one setting

Hell, they aren't even afraid to make multiple scales of game in one game!

Hey, what's all this "red period" and "orange period" stuff? I have a collection going back to around '87 and I want to know how to categorize everything!

It's like Picasso with his blue period and so on.

Posted By Pariah Press on 05/01/2007 11:48 PM
Hey, what's all this "red period" and "orange period" stuff? I have a collection going back to around '87 and I want to know how to categorize everything!

Think early to mid 90's, remember how damn near everything the Heavy Metal team put out had some cartoonishly over the top paint job with bright, bright, colors, one of which was always some form of red? That Red Period. In otherwords, most of 2nd Ed 40k. Great googly moogly did those paint schemes give me a headache (and partially led me to abandon the hobby for a few years).

Yeah, and lots of block colours in the packaging and in WD. Of which bright "Blood Angels" red was the most prominent. Certainly lacked any sort of taste, and felt kind of childish to me. As with nyarly it was one of the reasons I didn't really "get on" with GW between the mid '90's and the around '02. The whole design aesthetic got totally out of control and gross IMHO.

The new "darker gothic" look which came into play sort of coincided with 4th ed (although probably predated it by a year or so) and has contiued. Personally I prefer this kind of look - more subtle "grown up" painting styles and more toned down colours, even black, in WD and the stores.

Definitely a lot easier on the eyes!

Right, when it looked like everything was fresh from the factory. The Lego factory. I suppose the pre-40K mid-eighties would be the "Brown Period," then? Even the orcs were brown back then!

Posted By Pariah Press on 05/02/2007 4:13 PM
Right, when it looked like everything was fresh from the factory. The Lego factory. I suppose the pre-40K mid-eighties would be the "Brown Period," then? Even the orcs were brown back then!

There were some attempts at darker, moodier and more sophisticated (Owen Reeve's Imperial Guard and the Sisters of Battle come to mind), but a lot of it was pretty cartoonish. Actually, that's a quality I miss sometimes; there was a humor value to 40k once upon a time, and I fear that humor is gone for good now...  

A lot of Ork players get all huffy if you dare to suggest that Orks provide a much needed bit of comic relief.

I don't.
It's one of the reasons I love the little green blighters.
I get really, really bored of the endless, mindless drudgery of "Gothic" fluff and art.
They obviously don't really realise that gothic generally also implies a bright light to contrast with the darkness, and not just butresses and skulls everywhere. The cities of DAETH book was the worst for this.

I dunno.  I find the whole concept of Inquisitors and Exterminatus frikkin' hilarious.  But then that's because I'm a Bad Person.

I play Tau and Brets because they contrast with the crappy OMG DOOM AND GLOOM background. So GW at least offers an alternative. It's odd and funny that people would talk about 40k being a different, non-generic sci-fi fantasy because of the doom and gloom. But then the gloom is so ubiquitous that it gets stale and repetitive. It's no wonder the generic sci-fi includes the bright/hopeful/scientific race and that's why I enjoy the Tau. Brets offer something similar for Fantasy, 'cuz nobility and honor and kicking ass is certainly non-gloom.

So GW manages to create a gothic atmosphere so well that anything that's different from it is more striking simply because it's different. Even if the armies that are different are the typical, generic hopeful race.

I really don't see it as a gothic background. They don't have deep enough characters or especially proper villains for it to be gothic in my mind. It's certainly doom and gloom though. I'd love for the imperium to just *fudge*ing win a solid victory every now and then, but every codex and piece of background paints the whole thing as a massive losing battle, with defeat only ever put off by ridiculous deus ex machina solutions like "viruses" to kill the 'nids etc.
There's a perfectly valid way to kill 'nids- fight them every step of the way for the planet and then evacuate as they feed and nuke it from orbit. Or take the fight to them using the navy (the nid fleet is hardly massively powerful)
With orks, just send in assassins/kill teams to kill leaders before waaghs and keep them in a perpetual state of war.
Eldar, *fudge* it, they're hardly a real threat anyway.
Tau, blockade them in and ignore.
Chaos really shouldn't be a threat except for lost and the damned anyway.

But we never see this side of the background if Gw are writing it- look at the ending for Medusa V. Imperials won, but you wouldn't think it from the background. Eldar did okay, but their hero died. Chaos got paddled, but still the dark gods were pleased. It really bugged me. Same with fantasy- in SOC the chaos got beat back good o, but we still have this doom and gloom idea...

Yep. It would be nice given the campaigns' results to see the shoe on the other foot.

Following the massive Empire victory at Middenheim, Valten sacrificed himself to close the gates to Chaos at the north pole.

Now the haggered surviving Chaos worshipers struggle to reopen it before their source of power is gone forever.

Oh well.

I have always thought that the GW background was heavily influenced by Michael Moorcock's Melnibonaen stories, which are heavily existential, i.e., the struggle against Chaos is ultimately futile (and the Gods of Law are no better) and man is doomed to failure and disappointment, but we must struggle even though we despair, because not to do so would mean we are just wussies. Or something.


Back on topic, Things GW Does Well: They make great plastic Black Orcs!

Fellblade has it. The whole central idea is taken from Moorcock?s eternal struggle between Law and Chaos, with entropy (chaos) eventually pulling everything down. The struggle is more noble and tragic when you know you?re doomed in the long run but you do the right thing anyway. Rage against the dying of the light, buddy.

No, this is not particularly original. Yes, it has a tendency to be rendered less than meaningful by superficial or caricatured treatments, rendering an interesting philosophical and artistic vision occasionally trivial and self-parodying.

But I still think the main idea is cool.

I think Gw does have some great fluff for 40k and the background is great too.  I like the idea that the Imperium is fighting a losing war.  They are the last bastion of humanity and their enemies out number them (look at all the non-human armies out there).  The only way that they could keep an empire like that together is with the repressive nature of the Imperium, its like Stalin's Soviet Union, purge anyone you think might be a threat.

I just like the idea of even the good guys are bad guys.

Some of the novels are pretty crummy though, but when you find the right books, they are awesome.  Anything by Graham McNeil is great.  And the Eisenhorn stuff i've heard is really good.

So, i guess their fluff and cool models keep me interested.  I just do more converting and scratch building now then i used too, i cant afford to buy much from them anymore.

Look how many non-human armies there are?
What?
There are hojillions more human armies than Xenos ones.

I don't think he meant in game terms but in fluff terms. Humanity is attacked by countless orks, Tyranids, Necrons, and even from within by Chaos. Everyone is out to get the Imperium.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

They make Space Marines more then every other race. When they don't make space marines, they do things to make space marines win!

As for doing anything well, they give someone who thinks they are a game developer a job, they make stockholders good cash, and they give me someone to laugh at when they make wacky sales ploys that blow up in thier face.

To me its like watching Bug Bunny getting hit in the face with an ACME hammer.

 

On the same vein, I also forgot they're real good at making surprise jumps for the stock. Thanks a lot, jerks! If only the stock jump last summer and again a few days ago when it fell and jumped back up was somehow predictable, I'd have some extra cash.