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I do see where you guys are coming from, but I also think that this is just another case of 'x' is too good, so let's get rid of it and then choose another 'x' to be too good.

I only have one Falcon, and I don't use it to transport, so I suppose that my list/army is not the subject of your ire. The Falcon also rarely survives games all the same, even though I win the majority of my games using Eldar. My Vypers and Dire Avengers consistantly outperform my Prism and Falcon.

Truthfully, I do believe that the Land Raider is simply overpriced and that the Monolith's abilities place it right up there with the Falcon, and with the Hammerhead, Prism and Land Raider following a bit behind.

Falcons could certainly use a toning down. This could be done in a lot of ways from increasing their point cost, increasing the cost of the holo filed, or possibly by removing spirit stones. All are valid approaches.

The resilience of the rest of the eldar army isn't so much in its ability to resist incoming damage so much as it is avoiding incoming damage in the first place. Banshees and Qunis tend to do huge amounts of damage to their targets before the targets can attack back. This is what limits the damage they take, not their armor or invuln saves. Dark reapers and war walkers are both capable of wiping out entire squads in a single turn from long range fire power. This means that, if placed properly, they rarely have much in the way of enemies shooting back at them. Its irrelevent how frail you are if there isn't anything around to try and kill you.

Eldar speed also increases their resilience because it allows units to cross wide gaps in terrain quickly, thus ensuring that they will have cover saves more often then not. It also helps non-hand to hand units run away from potential assaulters. While neither will keep them alive for ever, both seriously increase the survivability of eldar troops when employed properly.

If you are obliterating the rest of an eldar army, leaving them only with "unkillable" falcons at the end of the game while taking very little damage yourself, you are obviously playing against an opponent who is significantly less skilled than yourself. One who is closer to your level of play will prove to be a much more difficult fight.

I have also seen Falcons thrown up in front for target priority tests and survive everything drawing fire off the rest of thier vulnerable units (bikes) to great effect. Then tank shocking/escorting units off the board from being within 6 of broken units ect. Nice to have in the back of your mind that regardless of the mission 2 of your 3 (even all 3 most times) Falcons will still be thier to claim/contest objectives. Nice to also know that the cargo inside only needs to deploy in the bottom of the last turn to blow things off the objective or to edge just enough points to go from a major victory to a massacre.

Well the rest of my personal Eldar army doesn't get saves from cover...

And I'd love to get my ass handed to me by a player of equal skill. Been a very long time, would do me a world of good!

Perhaps I was a little hasty when i said the people who you play suck, but i was offended by the thought of an eldar army being wiped out by third turn. I can tell you...the first time it happens to me I will have some serious thoughts about the eldar codex...

Anyways, I am becoming more and more intrigued about your eldar list...perhaps you wouldn't mind PM'ing it to me. I don't want to use it to try and take a shot at your credibility (if i did i would just ask a stupid question like "how did you do at the 'ard boyz lolz?"), I am genuinely interested in it.

Hespithe wrote:I do see where you guys are coming from, but I also think that this is just another case of 'x' is too good, so let's get rid of it and then choose another 'x' to be too good.

I only have one Falcon, and I don't use it to transport, so I suppose that my list/army is not the subject of your ire. The Falcon also rarely survives games all the same, even though I win the majority of my games using Eldar. My Vypers and Dire Avengers consistantly outperform my Prism and Falcon.

Truthfully, I do believe that the Land Raider is simply overpriced and that the Monolith's abilities place it right up there with the Falcon, and with the Hammerhead, Prism and Land Raider following a bit behind.

I don't mind something in an army being good or even reallly good. Obviously every army needs some of those things.

The problem is, there should be some soft of counter for those units in every enemy army, or nearly every enemy army. The Holo-field has no achillies heel. There is no weapon or wargear that ignore the Holo-fields effects for which the Eldar player needs concern himself about.

I'm sorry that your opponent continually get lucky and down your one Falcon but the fact remains that it is by far the most durable unit in the (standard, non-IA rules) game. By far. Period.

Thankfully it looks like you'll be able to build an adequate list to specifically spite on tri-falcon with the new orks.

Moz wrote:Thankfully it looks like you'll be able to build an adequate list to specifically spite on tri-falcon with the new orks.

How's that?

The only things that I see that falcons won't like are tankbustas, which I doubt you'll see many of, and lootas.

Lootas will be pretty good against them when they have the chance to shoot, but they're so incredibly vulnerable to every gun in the eldar army I can't see them getting make shots before they're dropped to below 10 and repeatedly tank shocked until they're gone.

yakface wrote:
I'm sorry that your opponent continually get lucky and down your one Falcon but the fact remains that it is by far the most durable unit in the (standard, non-IA rules) game. By far. Period.

Actually I would go beyond that. Mass points are real good, but still not as survivable as a an Eldar grav tank.

I would fix things by making Hologhfields and spirit stones incompatible technologies. You could have a tank witrgh both, but only one could be used at a time. This makes sense fluffwise too, spirit stones have a veiled perspective of the universe anyway, throwing two visual hazes together may make it difficult at least to pilot and aim.

Lootas are good, tankbustas are decent, and grabba claws on vehicles are a potential nightmare for skimmers. You can't get them on Trukks, but both the battlewagon and the cheap looted wagon can get them.

Mannahnin wrote:Lootas are good, tankbustas are decent, and grabba claws on vehicles are a potential nightmare for skimmers. You can't get them on Trukks, but both the battlewagon and the cheap looted wagon can get them.

...neither of which are fast - so your Eldar opponent will get caught by it once, and then never again.

Doesn't have to be Fast to provide area denial. Especially if the Eldar player wants to bring the Harlies or Dragons close to work over an expensive squad in the backfield (like Lootas).

I'm not saying it's guaranteed or anything, but it's pretty good, and the POTENTIAL damage may be enough to force the Eldar player to play more conservatively/avoid that area.

I'd say a battlewagon would be alot more reliable platform for the grabber claw then a looted wagon.

Closed top wagon, rolla, klaw, maybe a shoota or two to fend off weapon destroyed results. They hang out with the lootas or objectives and say "bring on the cheddar!". Hell, throw in some dirt cheap Koptas to turboboost behind the falcon so they can't unload. Now if they get clamped down they are going to explode with all hands lost. You've successfully done what no other army can do, and that's setup a spot on the board where a falcon will have to think twice before moving 36" into.

D6 S10 hits from the rolla is just gravy.

Additionally a 30 strong shoota squad is practically impervious to the falcon itself or anything that could be carried in it.

Lootas are far and away the best anti-falcon shooting in the game per point. We're talking 1.25x better than the runner up which is 3x Warwalkers with scatterlasers and guide. Lootas over 6 turns can expect to make double their points back in kills if all they do is shoot falcons. Nobody comes close to that claim. Seriously, nothing in the game.

I can only hope that this kind of list is strong enough to make it to the top tables with the tri-falcons to kick them in the junk.