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Laserbait wrote:""Young upstart""??????
"Possible troll"

Oh the joy of a warm welcome.....

Just to let y'all know:
I am a 45 yo married man with children.
I started in gaming back in 1981, first with AD&D, before moving on to SFB. The players I game with range in age from 16 to 49, and have jobs ranging from Game store boy, architect, EPA worker, a State Trooper, and an ex NYPD officer ( me ) and a retired Federal agent. We have tried the dead-hard-can't-be-touched combos, but to us as a group, there is no joy in a bloodbath. That is NOT a slur against anyone who enjoys that kind of game. We have one of that type in our group as well. The "must win at all costs" player who spends hours finetuning his army.
I currently have an eldar army, Chaos force, half a company of SM's, and a nucleus of Imperial guard. and have been playing the game since 1989.
I enjoy 40K, FOW, classic Battletech, Warmachine, BFG and A Call to Arms.

I know this isn't the right place for a bio, but I felt it was necessary.

Again, my apologies to everyone for starting a topic that was "beaten to death", but I was trying to understand the mindset.

The mind set is fairly simple to understand.

Think chess. Ancient game. Simple rules. People have argue which pieces on the board are most effective for ages. I have no doubt there have been duels over strategies and games in the past. To this day people are debating which is the most least effective opening. These are serious people as well.

Like all hobbies there are multiple rungs of players. Dakka is a competitve site. Players here think in hard terms about unit effectiveness and what combos well. I'm a little shocked you've been playing that long without having found dakka online. For less competitive play and a les competition friendly environment on the internet you have many choices. If you want to know the hard reality of competition this is one of the best sites in English. Yakface the owner has written a comprhensive FAQ of the rules useable for competitive play, based largely on RAW (a concept championed by this site). The level of civility here is kept pretty high much of the time, but bullheaded stupidity is not looked kindly upon.
For example if you try to tell people there are 4 results which will kill a holofielded falcon you can expect correcting. There should be 1 chance in 36 if you have vectored or 1 in 12 if you do not.
The falcon has seen much discussion over the past year and a synopsis of the numbers required may as well be stickied at the top of the general discussions page to save time.

I was on the old dakka site. The one that crashed in.... 2004?


Ya know, I'm getting tired of the subtle barbs you all keep slinging.

How the feck is someone to learn about WHY people dislike a unit if the questions are met with terms like "bullheaded stupidity", "utter nonsense" etc etc etc?

I have stated that I did NOT start this thread to debate falcons.

Y'all want to keep beating this horse, go right ahead.

Laserbait wrote:I was on the old dakka site. The one that crashed in.... 2004?


Ya know, I'm getting tired of the subtle barbs you all keep slinging.

How the feck is someone to learn about WHY people dislike a unit if the questions are met with terms like "bullheaded stupidity", "utter nonsense" etc etc etc?

I have stated that I did NOT start this thread to debate falcons.

Y'all want to keep beating this horse, go right ahead.

Tell you what I tried here to explain. You felt the need to reopen the never ending discussion. The math has been done to death. the bull headed stupidity really wasn't aimed at you, but at the simple fact this is, at the least, the 5th time in the past 4 months someone has started topics which focused on this topic. The same things are said. The same math errors are made.

There was no subtle barb in my comment. If you found one you were looking for something to be offended by. I really don't care to start an internet pee contest. However I noticed you did not comment on my post where I broke down cost per dollars and effectiveness which was more to the point of your question. People want to know about unit effeciency because this is not a cheap hobby. That Eldar army I designed in there is the best mix of effiecncy I could do in US dollars and reach 1500 points.

What more do you want? It's a stupid arguement to say it is not mathematically the best vehicle unit. It is the most durable transport, and at a reasonable cost. This makes it the automatic focus of any discussion of best units, and a comparison unit against which all other units in the game are measured. It's that good.

Laserbait wrote:I was on the old dakka site. The one that crashed in.... 2004?


Ya know, I'm getting tired of the subtle barbs you all keep slinging.

How the feck is someone to learn about WHY people dislike a unit if the questions are met with terms like "bullheaded stupidity", "utter nonsense" etc etc etc?

I have stated that I did NOT start this thread to debate falcons.

Y'all want to keep beating this horse, go right ahead.

And how, barring fixed dice, are you supposed to be "good" at rolling 5's and 6's? There are exactly 4 results out of 36 possible which will kill a holofielded Falcon on a glancing hit. You've got a considerably better shot killing a Land Raider on a glance, and that's before you even consider penetrating hits

Sorry if you found insult in my response; none was intended. You offerend an observation on a supposed weakness in Holofields which does not mesh well with the probabilities that accompany the dice-based portion of this game, and I felt it necessary to continue discussion on that point. While you may have encountered "lucky" people, it's not an especially helpful bit of advice to someone facing down an unpleasant situation: "Be lucky!"

Centurian99 uses a quote from Starship Troopers (the novel) as his signature, which really sums up Dakka:
"I was not making fun of you personally - I was heaping scorn on an inexcusably silly idea - a practice I shall always follow." - Lt. Colonel Dubois, Starship Troopers

We are always happy to discuss something. But, admittedly, if you take and hold a position with which people disagree, expect debate. For what it's worth, most Dakkaites I've actually met in person are very mellow people, and excellent company for both gaming and simply hanging out and/or drinking. Many of us are working professionals. Many of us, however, have been here long enough and are comfortable enough in the environment to kick back and engage in a fairly free-spirited discussion, without taking it personally. I've had spirited debates here with members of my own Adepticon team.

As to the original topic:
Challenge: good. Units/tactics that can only be defeated through statistically-improbably luck: bad. Not sure what else there is for me to say on the issue; we've gone over some of the examples in a bit of depth.

You didn't start this thread asking WHY people dislike units, you just told everyone to man up and find a solution to an unsolvable problem. Then you kept beating a dead horse.

I'm not so subtle. edit: directly insulting other posters is absolutely not allowed --yakface

Hey laserbait, let me say 'hello!'. I was not shooting any barbs at you, mate.

Hurra I am a troll!
No serious the term "young upstart" was only related to your post count. As mentioned before this topic comes up a lot.

Laserbait, if you've been around since ezb Dakka, you should be savvy enough to know that your opening post was far from the neutral "I want to understand this" post you're claiming it to be. Let's see:

I've read a lot of posts on here stating that one type of unit or another is "too tough", 'too powerful', "too hard to take out". I have seen suggestions on how to take these units down to a more manageable level by basically hamstringing them to the other players advantage.

Whatever happened to overcoming challenge? I know I would much rather face a insert your hard-to-kill-monster-here and beat it fairly, than have the unit made so worthless that it was a mockery.
.
.
.
In TTG's, or any game for that matter, you need a challenge. Else it wouldn't be fun, to my point of view anyway.

Take for instance Carnifexes. I see much grumbling and sputtering about them. Not having the codex, or even playing against them in 4th, I cannot comment on how "uber-broke" they are or aren't.
But, I know that the win would be more satisfying, to me, to take it (them) down by the book, than having to re-write rules to nerf them into non-existence.

You didn't come in trying to understand why people hate Falcons and dakkfexes so much. You came in with a very clear opinion on the matter: these things aren't all that, and everyone else should be like you and just take it as a challenge. There's nothing wrong with that, but to turn around now and say you were just looking for an explanation, and don't get why everyone jumped on you, is simply disingenuous.

Almost afraid to ask this but,

Reading over the rules for ordnance it seems like you have 2 rules in direct opposition. If Ord hits, you roll 2d6 and take the higher.
Holofields say roll 2d6 and take the lowest.
Which takes precidence?

And, in the same vein, Ord is either a hit or a miss, there are no glancing hits. I state this because the entry for ord states "if it beats the armor, use Ordnance penetrating table". So is ordnance the way to go to beat an all decked out flacon?

The ordnance 2d6 applies to the armor penetration roll, while the holofield 2d6 applies to the damage result roll.

got it. I misread the para. thanks

Hey Laserbait. Cool you used to work for the Feds. I'm an Aussie, so only TV shows/Movies are where I get most info on you guys. Are you like DeNiro in "Meet the Parents"?


Anyway, On your original question, yes, Uber Units can Fudge a game IMO.

Post Count does not equate to quality of posts, IMO.

People can/do get a little Narky(myself included)!

The more people on this site the better.

I thought your question a good one, as I am fairly new to Dakka as well, and have not read all of the older threads, and some of my questions have been doubled up.

Considering the way you were replied to by a few, I thought you were very diplomatic.

Keep posting mate. I like a good read, and welcome.

@ Laserbait: Welcome to Dakka!

Falcons are Dooooom!

I think a large part of the issue is that this isn't a video game. In video games, it is you vs. the computer (usually) and things are relatively quick. If it took you 3-4 hours to fight that hunter each time, I assure you, you wouldn't have done it over and over and over again trying to kill it. You would have done it twice...three times maybe, and then given up. Part of the point of 40k is that the fights are supposed to be relatively even. Its the same way when you play multi player verses in video games. You don't give one player a huge advantage; you start both players off on an even footing. Sometimes there is some balancing you can do voluntarily so that you can handicap someone who is more skilled than the other but for the most part, the point is to have an even fight.

Now, when people suggest "fixes" to the things that are kicking their butts on a regular basis, they usually go overboard on the nerf. Carnifixes are really not so much the problem as the fact that you can take 6 of them in one force organization chart. Falcons are not really broken, its just the holofield that’s really an issue. Things of that nature. The fact of the matter is simply that in 40k things are not perfectly balanced. There are (and always will be) top tier armies that are just simply better than others. The problem really comes in when you find that your army that you've spent lots of time and money building is either too good or too bad when compared to the opponents you are playing. 40k isn't like a video game where you can just pick a worse or better character to balance out skill levels between you and your opponent. Even if you have enough models to do something of the sort by taking a sub-standard army list, it still takes 3-4 (or sometimes more) hours to get though a game and its rarely fun to spend that much time getting stomped.

Laserbait lets restart the discussion:

You have to separate two issues:

1) items or combos that are more powerful than the points they cost.
****Assault cannons fall into this category. They are statistically better than both heavy bolters and lascannons vs. their pricing.

2) super powerful items or items that are just head and shoulder above other items in a list.
****The Godzilla list falls in this category. The sum of 6+ 4 or more wound monstrous creatures has a cumulative effect. Yes it can be defeated, but the benefit of 6+ MC’s outweighs their cost and are substantially better than many other nid choices.

Having said all that, I too often find these statements get tiresome.

In general I believe most of the posters on this board are very nice in person but we all like to bust each other's chops and I also believe many of us are very passionate about the game and with those passions some of us do say alot of things in the heat of the moment that doesn't come out as nice or we elaborate incorrectly. I have done that frequently as o well and often misunderstood for my ballbusting (can I say that?). Please don't take anything on this board too seriously.

With that, 40K will always come down to luck nomatter how good of a general you are, no matter how many GTs you have won, the game will simply come to a point of rolling dice, and we create our armies to maximize the odds of rolling in our favor if its by a superior unit or through numbers.

You can say ball busting, but technically it's two words.

i don't really get the problem with assault canons. can any of you explain why there so good

I can explain why assault cannons are a great choice from the tyranid player perspective, but I'm sure it'll ring true for most armies at least to an extent:

The assault cannon can kill anything in the game (aside from 1 model I can think of, the monolith), and can mince up most light to medium armor save models in no time with its 4 S6 shots and the random chance for not needing to-wound rolls because of rending. Since traditionally the tyranid army is composed almost exclusively of light to medium armor save models its the hot knife to our butter. It slays genestealers wholesale while being either impervious to being caught in cc through being on a landspeeder or being rock solid in close combat by being 2 in a terminator squad. Now I'm not saying genestealers can't win close combat with terminators, but if a squad of them at equal points tries to run across the table to meet the terminators they'll be gunned down in 2 turns max by the cannons. Same with gaunts and the medium beasties like warriors and raveners, and even the MCs can be gunned down by enough 6's to hit. The same really applies to most armies like eldar, tau, necrons. With so many shots and the ability to rend they really are worth every point. That being said I still think space marines have the best time against tyranid armies up to and including nidzilla, with mech eldar and tau coming in a close second.

Sound about right, correct me if I'm off on anything?

It's as Thanatos said. Basically, it's better than a lascannon against any vehicle that isn't a Monolith, better than a heavy bolter against light infantry, and better than a starcannon against MEqs.

Laserbait wrote:
HF - the dread game breaking upgrade. causes the opponent to roll two dice for damage on pen, taking the lowest. Not too shabby actually if you are good at rolling 5 & 6's.

ROFL - thats worth sig'ing, Can you enlighten me as to how you get good at rolling 5 and 6 without actually cheating, presumably its all in the wrist action.

[edit - ps sorry if others took the mickey out of that statement before me, I just couldn't help responding immediately before reading subsequent posts - it was just that 'good' ]

tegeus-Cromis wrote:It's as Thanatos said. Basically, it's better than a lascannon against any vehicle that isn't a Monolith, better than a heavy bolter against light infantry, and better than a starcannon against MEqs.

Especially now that the starcannon is a 2 shot weapon and it only has one mount that gives it BS 4 shooting:the wraithlord. Guess what dies really really easily to assault cannons in the eldar army? The wraithlord!? I think if you gave assault cannons to bs 3 guard they'd be alot more balanced out than if you give them to an army who's entire BS is 4 or greater. Its also the combo of multiple shots and being relatively assured that most shots will land as hits that makes the assault cannon especially good as an all-comers weapon.

Nope, asscannons on Guard would still be too good (relatively speaking) unless they were made more expensive than las. This is particularly so when firing at non-vehicle units, since it's the 6s to hit that matter most.

thanatos67 wrote:It slays genestealers wholesale while being either impervious to being caught in cc through being on a landspeeder or being rock solid in close combat by being 2 in a terminator squad.

Not to take us too far off topic, but you cannot lock vehicles in close combat. Thus the Assault Cannon is still quite good at killing Genestealers on a Landspeeder.

Reread what you've just quoted. Thanatos is quite aware that non-WS vehicles can't be locked in CC.

Yeah like I said, impervious to close combat. Can't be much more impervious than being a skimmer moving fast almost the whole time.

Anyway I'll also say that some of the other things addressed in this thread like nidzilla and mech eldar are both assuredly horrifying for most people to deal with. I myself run nidzilla, and have learned first hand through intense playtest that the army is one to be reckoned with, along with mech eldar due to sheer mobiliity and resilience. Nidzilla isn't the fastest thing ever, but if you build it right you're going to get enough speedy stuff to threaten your opposition the whole game.