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the best way to stop skimmers is simple get you a brick and then when the skimmer moves throw the brick at it if you miss then you lose

Mughi3 i you are right i have faced your list and i think we had some blood baths lol it is a beatable list its hard but if IG can beat it anyone can lol

I think the record was 1-2-2?

You had 6 Oblits, in fact you said you killed most of his Skimmers.

For the life of me, as someone who doesn't play Tau, I can't see anyone complaining about their tanks.

A roll on the damage table is pretty harsh for Tau:

1, 2 - The two safe results for Tau, they can run away from fire and then come back and shoot you again
3 - Can't move, which means it can be penned next turn - BAD result
4 - Weapon Destroyed; a Hammerhead without a functioning Railgun is about as useful as a poopy flavored lollypop.
5 - They make you re-roll the imobilized, so spin the wheel again, but if you get another 5, down they go.
6 - Destroyed

So out of 6 possibilities, fully half are very bad for the Tau player (3, 4, 6). One result is dangerous (5), and two are "safe".

Seriously, it's not that hard to take them down and everyone here is correct the way to beating Tau skimmers is:

Shoot the Hammerheads, glance once, and move on till all Hammerheads are glanced.
Move to Devil Fish, repeat.

Seriously, it's not that hard to do and you've got 6 bloody Oblits. While I would almost feel bad for you having to face Mech Tau, a powerful army, I don't think your Chaos list sounds like it was short on powerful units.

Adjust your target priority next game and you'll do better. Tau skimmers are fine and fair, it's the Eldar who deserve to fall through the Nerf Tree and hit every branch on the way down.

Adjust your target priority next game and you'll do better. Tau skimmers are fine and fair, it's the Eldar who deserve to fall through the Nerf Tree and hit every branch on the way down.

The thing with eldar is it has alwaysbeen that way with them. they are an ancient high-tech race that is very fragile yet very powerful.....and people have been complaning about them since 2nd ed.
Notice not everybody plays eldar(in fact its rather rare) so they obviously aren't the only army or the most badarse army on the table even for the power gamers.

skullspliter888
Indeed brother!
i don't remember the score, but at least we made each other work for it.......unlike DJs necrons smacking us around.

mughi3 wrote:

Adjust your target priority next game and you'll do better. Tau skimmers are fine and fair, it's the Eldar who deserve to fall through the Nerf Tree and hit every branch on the way down.

The thing with eldar is it has alwaysbeen that way with them. they are an ancient high-tech race that is very fragile yet very powerful.....and people have been complaning about them since 2nd ed.
Notice not everybody plays eldar(in fact its rather rare) so they obviously aren't the only army or the most badarse army on the table even for the power gamers.

Please don't ever call the Eldar "fragile", because it's just not the truth (being a 3rd Ed Codex Ork player for so long makes you bitter about "Tough Orks" vs. "Fragile Eldar"). Oh sure, you can take Guardians and Dire Avengers and call them Fragile, but that's not how its played on any table top I've seen.

They're an MEQ army with 3+ saves running around. Jetbikes, Spears, Spiders, Pathfinders are about the usual "Eldar" models I see. Anything "fragile" gets to hide in the most Durable unit in the entire game.

No the list is not unbeatable, but calling them "fragile" is just dumb. They could be, but in reality they're built as one of the most resilient armies in the game.

Eldar

Voodoo Boyz wrote:(being a 3rd Ed Codex Ork player for so long makes you bitter about "Tough Orks" vs. "Fragile Eldar")

lol, that one really made me laugh. Thanks.

btw, Eldar in the top 3 for resiliece. Right behind Necrons and Nidzilla. (Only ranked competetive armies.)

3+ save (some even with T4), 5+ invul with emo powers, 4+ invul and if you feel this isn't enough, just toss in two Fortune Farseers for a bargain. Add some Falcons and/or Wraithlords.
The only fragile thing about Eldar is the T3 majority. The rest of the pointe eared lot is at least rated average on resilience.

mughi3 wrote:People loose to them and think it shoud be easier to beat them, while they fail to understand how to deal with them through tactics or army composition.
no army is unbeatable, no army is broken. there is always a counter out there that will be the antithesis of anything you build.

While I don't disagree with the content of this statement, isn't it a bit of a broad truism? Specific examples of such counters might be more useful.

theblklotus, how about swapping the Obliterators for a small squads of infiltrating Havocs to get some shots on the side armour?

Havocs can't infiltrate any more.

Why would he want anything other than Oblits? They're by far and away the best thing he's got for Anti-Tank while still being mobile with Deepstrike and Move+Fire Lascannons. With 48" range, he can glance Hammerheads while staying out of Plasma Rifle range on his Crisis suits, and the can enjoy the benefits of being T4, W2, 2+/5+ Save.

And he's still got plenty of Lascannon shots with 6 Oblits.

Basically he's got the tools to get the job done, he just needs help in learning how to use the tools he's got properly.

Kilkrazy wrote:All the complaints about how overpowered Tau skimmers are have come since the revised Eldar Codex release. There were no complaints before then for a period of nearly three years.

So what is it about the Eldar Codex that suddenly made Tau Skimmers overpowered?

Critical mass and momentum.

I prefer to look at it as the Tau learning from the Eldar, which is more Fluffish. The Eldar players demonstrated that massed Skimmers work, and the Tau realized they could apply the same concept to their list.

Or you can believe that the Tau Empire figured out that, for 4th Ed's focus on mobility and objectives, their Skimmers would be a good match.

Or you can think that it's because static shooty Marine players who hadn't changed their lists in 3 years finally started getting destroyed by multiple players with Skimmer-based armies at tournaments. Kinda like the OP.

skyth wrote:Havocs can't infiltrate any more.

That'll teach me to be a Guard player!
(on another note, thank goodness!)

Uh... how about melta-armed havocs in a Rhino?

I played the same tourney against the all Tau skimmer list and lost with lance heavy webway Dark Eldar. Now here's the thing, I killed everything but the skimmers and didn't manage to kill a single skimmer. The old adage of shake em and move on works great, until you can't shake as many vehicles as he's fielding in a turn. Then you're losing ground as the functional tanks will grind your forces down while you're still just shaking and stunning. Now granted, I got some bad luck there as in turn 2 for instance I shook 3 tanks, stunned 1, and weapon destroyed one, and by the end of the game every tank was still functional. The guy running this list is one of the best generals in our area, so we could've had a really great game that didn't come down to "Well you just didn't kill any of my skimmers, so there you have it."

I'd also gripe that the possibility of such lists really destroys any chance for all-assault armies competing at anything, but then there's Bill and his 100 battle point stealershock in Chicago...

Bottom line regardless : I want competitive games that come down to positioning, distance, and taking chances that pay off. Not broken mechanics steamrolling over anything but a list custom tailored to counter it.
What a scrub sentence... If only I could stomach playing a SAFH army, but they are just so boring.

I agree with the fact that i had the tools... My tactics were not perfect, but I generaly take lists that allow for some buffer on my part. My list has CSM with mostly 3+/4+ inv AP3 slinging marines... 6 oblits and 2DP w/their slowed brother Beelo, the greater deamon.

I nod to you all that say it was my tactics mostly... sure... It was me. I agree... however, as stated, some things in the game, infact HALF the game mechanics cannot do a single thing to a tank/skimmer... there is a problem with that as there is so much more to the game in CC and small arms fire. ... Doh... sorry... I guess I am getting at one word... fun.

I am with most people that play this game of battling dolls... I enjoy winning... sorry, its just human nature, however, it must be stated that even in battles that I have lost, interesting elements of the game make me grin, laugh even an occational heal click... This really does not happen against all skimmer/tank lists... for EITHER side.

(a random note: once a space wolf, after melta guns, bolt pistols and all the other misc crap, lept into the air and with his last attack rammed a cc blade into to rear of my falcon and rolled a six, then rolled 2 sixes on the table... that did happen... only once though... I laughed.)

Skimmer lists that have enough tanks to build the "Skimmer Wall" to prevent assaults (and that they can shoot through) are so annoying to play against, especially with the Combat Lists, or against JSJ units where they only way you really can damage them is in CC.

Maybe that's why Phil Kelly put Snikrot in the new Ork Codex.

i know its not a cure all but with my IG i would deep strike a vet squad with 3 meltas or plasma near skimmers some times it work and in the same list i ran fire teams with AC'S . and this is a little more rounded list. the AC squad takes out medium transports and troops the vet you don't have to drop them all the time you hold them back or infiltrate them .

theblklotus wrote:Wouldn't it be nice to field a landraider again... I guess that is another bone of contempt. The landraider is nearly useless against any sort of competent player, while a Falcon can tankshock across an entire enemy line with very little to worry about.

I like the idea of concealment giving auto glance... That would open the door to all vehicles having some sort of use again with thought to placement and movement.

The problem with having vehicles always glanced when they have cover is that tanks will never move. This is how things were in 3rd edition. Tanks deployed in cover somewhere and then sat there for the entire game. I suppose it also didn't help that if you moved at all, you could only fire one weapon but still. Its just like skimmers now. When was the last time you saw a skimmer move less than 6" on a turn? I don't think I've ever seen it happen. The defensive power they get for doing it is so great that you would never want to give it up. The same thing will go for tanks in cover. So if you are ok with tanks going back to essentially being immobile turrets, then by all means being back the always glancing cover, but be aware the consequences for doing that.

Kilkrazy wrote:All the complaints about how overpowered Tau skimmers are have come since the revised Eldar Codex release. There were no complaints before then for a period of nearly three years.

So what is it about the Eldar Codex that suddenly made Tau Skimmers overpowered?

You know what's funny is that eldar tanks are less survivable than they were in the old codex.

I'd much rather have the old sprit stones and crystalline targetting matrix over the new spirit stones and vectored engines.

[quote=frenrik
You know what's funny is that eldar tanks are less survivable than they were in the old codex.

I'd much rather have the old sprit stones and crystalline targetting matrix over the new spirit stones and vectored engines.

In fairness, I dont take falcons, for the simple reason that I dont have the models, but I have to disagree that eldar are in any way resilient. I am completely dependent on 1. Getting my wraithlords stuck in combat, which usually means I have sacrificed a lot of infantry, or 2. The ideal situation, my opponent focuses on the wraithlords and gives my infantry time to fleet over the board and bring short range weaponry to bear or even time for the wraithguard to crawl over. I've found that, at least the way I play, I put on a great show the first turn I get engaged in assault or close range shooting, but if the combat drags out, then I just dont have the staying power. If someone is smart enough to throw a relatively inexpensive fearless or high Ld unit on the wraithlords, then they're essentially taken out of the game.

Start your own Eldar are weeny thread. We're griping about skimmers here.

Maybe you don't field them in resilient ways, but a T8 3+ Save unit is pretty resilient. Not when you fight nothing but Las/Plas squads, but in general that's a good unit.

Likewise, if you're taking other things, then yeah they're fragile (gurdians, dire avengers, etc). But when you look at the "competitive" armies that are fielded, they're nothing but 3+ Save units, or something with a silly Cover save (3+, 2+), and the most durable tank in the game.

Playing against Mech Eldar is playing against one of the most resilient lists in the game. Heck to look at the thread where people are talking about Turbo Boosting Shining Spears with Fortune on them and how well they do.

You may be T3, but T3 with a 3+ Save is a hell of a lot more resilient than T4 with a 4+ Save. Heck many times you're running around with T4 anyway, so I just can't sit here and listen to how "Eldar are Fragile" when I play an army with base T4 but no good armor saves and watch guys fall off the table by the bucketload.

The only reason the Orks got "good" is because now you can field so damn many of them and they're faster than before. They're still no where near as resilient as the Eldar can be.

Voodoo Boyz wrote:Maybe you don't field them in resilient ways, but a T8 3+ Save unit is pretty resilient. Not when you fight nothing but Las/Plas squads, but in general that's a good unit.

Likewise, if you're taking other things, then yeah they're fragile (gurdians, dire avengers, etc). But when you look at the "competitive" armies that are fielded, they're nothing but 3+ Save units, or something with a silly Cover save (3+, 2+), and the most durable tank in the game.

Playing against Mech Eldar is playing against one of the most resilient lists in the game. Heck to look at the thread where people are talking about Turbo Boosting Shining Spears with Fortune on them and how well they do.

You may be T3, but T3 with a 3+ Save is a hell of a lot more resilient than T4 with a 4+ Save. Heck many times you're running around with T4 anyway, so I just can't sit here and listen to how "Eldar are Fragile" when I play an army with base T4 but no good armor saves and watch guys fall off the table by the bucketload.

The only reason the Orks got "good" is because now you can field so damn many of them and they're faster than before. They're still no where near as resilient as the Eldar can be.

I just dont play that army..my wraithguard and wraithlords are the only 3+ saves in my army. The wraithlord is resilient, I'll give you that. I like my 20 man guardian squad though, its acutally a pretty durable little unit with the rerolls.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:All the complaints about how overpowered Tau skimmers are have come since the revised Eldar Codex release. There were no complaints before then for a period of nearly three years.

So what is it about the Eldar Codex that suddenly made Tau Skimmers overpowered?

Critical mass and momentum.

I prefer to look at it as the Tau learning from the Eldar, which is more Fluffish. The Eldar players demonstrated that massed Skimmers work, and the Tau realized they could apply the same concept to their list.

Or you can believe that the Tau Empire figured out that, for 4th Ed's focus on mobility and objectives, their Skimmers would be a good match.

Or you can think that it's because static shooty Marine players who hadn't changed their lists in 3 years finally started getting destroyed by multiple players with Skimmer-based armies at tournaments. Kinda like the OP.

I'd also posit because V4 slammed the vehicles in non-skimmer lists. In V3 my basilisks and Lemans had a good chance of putting the hurt on Tau skimmers. Now to have a similar effect I have to play A company with ace gunners.

Well the rules for Skimmers counter or override many of the tactical difficulties of taking a vehicle. In particular Skimmer Tanks, I don't think non-Tank Skimmers are complained about that much.

Terrain: A ground tank must manouever around it, must risk being stuck for the entire game usually out of LOS whilst giving the enemy half it's VP's and any chance of claiming an objective if going through it.
A skimmer tank simply moves over it. So who needs to be more skillful in this situation?

Close Combat: A Skimmer tank has the protection of needing 6's to hit it all the time, most ground tanks only get that if they move too fast to shoot. So a ground vehicle is far more wary of enemy close combat units getting close, a Skimmer tank can afford slightly more risk, indeed some of the more resilient Skimmers Tanks can use it to get enemy close combat units into smacking range. Various other nuances like a Skimmer Tank being able to fly over an encircling enemy close combat unit whilst Ground Tanks must risk a Tank Shock. Who requires more skill in this circumstance to protect against assaulters?

LOS: In a few circumstances a ground tank's ability to block LOS to your units is beneficial. Most of the time however the ground tanks must play an intricate ballet to try to get LOS to the enemy, whilst not blocking LOS for other units in your army, whilst not exposing itself unneccessarily. Take an enemy unit with a forest blocking LOS to your 3 Predators- you'll need to move those Pred's in a rank so that they are next to each other- the Predator nearest the forest side is likely protected from other enemy units fire, but the other 2 Pred's are often forced to become exposed in order to have any LOS.
Skimmer Tanks in the same situation can move into a column, one behind the other, so that all three are to the side of the forest, are protected from LOS to other enemy units, etc.
Who requires more skill in this situation to ensure all their units have LOS whilst being protected?

Speed: Most Skimmer Tanks are faster or at least can shoot whilst moving faster than ground vehicles- this doesn't help the ground vehicles case.

Resilience: The illusion that Skimmer Tanks like the Hammerhead and Falcon are more fragile than ground tanks has gotten so old it's just not funny any more. Ground tanks have to forgoe shooting and only once per game to get the same benefit (smoke) a Skimmer Tank gains by doing something that it would do anyway- move and shoot.
Something about a tank floating on intricate and precarious anti-grav or hover technology being more able to withstand enemy fire when hit, than a tank sitting on armoured tracks strikes me as stupid- which tank is more likely to be able to carry more heavy armour?

Tank Shock: Ground tanks that Tank Shock into terrain risk serious consequences not only in the terrain, but in that they are inherently weaker than Skimmer Tanks due to Penetrating Hits, etc. A Skimmer Tank can apparently move into a forest to flush out entrenched infantry whilst simultaneously hovering above the treetops safe from colliding with tree's- same example with men in a ruined building is even more hilarious. I've seen this used to massive effect in Take and Hold or Secure and Control to the point where the previous 5 turns might as well not have been played.


It's just not much fun playing against Skimmer spam, especially when on the internet Taudar is oftened rambled on about how skillful and needing of tactics such armies are compared to Ground Tank armies- just not true. The Eldar players I know personally are not, but the general stereotype on the internet and from Eldar players outside of my group (such as tournaments) are notorious for the self back patting and being inherently blind to how powerful Holotanks are with incredible arrogance.

so what, if any, changes would make skimmers easier for their opponents? Someone mentioned 'nerfing' the skimmers. What would you like to see done to them? How would any of you modify the rules, yet still keep them viable?

The only thing wrong with skimmers is that you need 6s to hit them in CC.

If holofields didn't exist we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Skimmers don't need a nerf, regular tanks need a buff.

Smoke every turn would fix my land raiders... gives options.

Smoke every turn means you would never shoot.

Possible solutions- it's tricky, the rot of ground vehicle nerf runs deep.

A friend came up with a Penetrating Hits table where every result is 1 higher (e.g. 5-6 are destroyed, 4 is immobile and stunned, 3 is weapon, etc) with 1 being roll of Glancing Hit table.
I've yet to try it out, and have criticised it because Holotanks would still be uber, but in 40k world without Holotanks it makes vehicles tougher overall. Skimmers become tougher too...but since 99% of the time they're Glancing Only it isn't as noticeable for them.

Other options are to make Skimmer Moving Fast equal to Obscured as it was in 3rd, either both are automatic, or on a 4+. More logical and interesting would be if it was a To Hit modifier on enemy shooting at the vehicle...but that would require primary school maths like 3 +1 = ? so is too complicated for 40k.

Skimmer Tanks not being able to Tank Shock 'over' terrain would be nice.

Vehicles with all their weapons destroyed being no longer scoring? True, it weakens ground vehicles somewhat, but Skimmer Tanks are far more likely to have all weapons stripped off before destruction due to Glancing Only.

Fixing Holofields so that it requires skill to use Eldar?

As an Eldar player, I think changing the Auto Glance to Obscured would go a long way. The Eldar player can't count on just using the Glancing chart which would, in turn, get the Eldar player to use more caution with the Falcon. This is as opposed to 24" move ahead, Star Engine in the shooting phase, weather all kinds of shooting, then unload payload with only some missing weapons and/or shaken in his next turn.

I'm with IntoTheRain
Skimmers are fine, ground vehicle need to be less fragile.

Laserbait wrote:so what, if any, changes would make skimmers easier for their opponents? Someone mentioned 'nerfing' the skimmers. What would you like to see done to them? How would any of you modify the rules, yet still keep them viable?

To claim the victory points for an objective you can't just zoom up to it on the last turn, you had to hold it for a turn.

As well as making a little more sense than 'holding' an objective by having a skimmer do a fly-by in the last turn, it would make heavy, hard to shift units the best objective takes, and make skimmers a little less useful. And that'd be about enough, the only other skimmer problem is with 3 falcon eldar, as one or two falcons can be countered, it's only when you see three of them that it gets really hard to stop. The only solution at this point is to not play those kinds of people (or in a tournament, take just as cheesy a list of your own).