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I think the rule of not being able to shoot into CC is lame.

"Oi Sarge," says Gork the Ork" 3 of our Grots on that Zappa gun are being assaulted by those Termies!! Lets shoot them with our biggest gunz!!"

"Now hear this my good man," intones Warboss Glork" We might nick a few of our chaps, and that's just not on Old Bean!! Now Tally-Ho, and have at the blighters, pip pip!"

More like..
"KILL 'EM ALL~More where they came from...."

Let alone Khornate Psychopaths-they just love to kill, don't they? Anyone?

Shooting into combat would bring up a lot of complicated rules. Yeah, it would help to balance 40k a pit. What? Yeah...balance...maybe 40k and the 'b' word in a single sentance without any negative in it is a paradoxon...but they're on the right way.

With two exceptions:
Codex: Eldar and Codex: Dark Angels.

stonefox wrote:

Agree with this and most of your points, especially because I see 40k people whining about why so-and-so doesn't work a certain way yet I've never seen a chess player whine that his towers and cranky old men can move faster than his footsoldiers. However, why did you also include "not intuitive" for #3 because it sounds like another "this isn't real!" complaint.

Actually, I'd say the opposite is true from a "real" piont of view if a vehicle suffers a hit that penetrates it's armor you better damn well believe the guys on board are going to get the hell out of there.

But in game terms it slows everything down because it takes extra time to get out all your guys onto the table and then if the vehicle was just shaken they just have to get back in the next turn and drive away (also stunned as well if the vehicle has extra armor).

It isn't intuitive for a couple of reasons: First that rule wasn't in the previous edition so a lot of people forget it and it isn't written into the damage result tables so if you look to see what happens to the vehicle you aren't reminded that your guys have to get out, and so consequently it again gets forgotten.


Overall the rule obviously has some effect on the game but I don't think it is a worthwhile effect considering the extra time it adds to the game (especially if you have several transports in your army).

I hate that open topped vehicles aren't open top if you are wearing power armour. Paticularly land speeders. It just feels so tacked on. Does the pilot block the shot with his head, to prevent the heavy bolter round from going into the engine? "Brother Santos, their firing at the engines! stand on the hood and catch that shot will you!"

I agree with all the other points mentioned so far, except I like escalation. It would be nice to have a reverse escalation as well sometimes, to balance things. Anything that makes you diversify your army so that you are tactically covered is a good thing.

greenskinned git wrote:I hate that open topped vehicles aren't open top if you are wearing power armour. Paticularly land speeders. It just feels so tacked on.

I agree with all the other points mentioned so far, except I like escalation. It would be nice to have a reverse escalation as well sometimes, to balance things. Anything that makes you diversify your army so that you are tactically covered is a good thing.

Oh yeah, I agree that open-topped rule is idiotic.


The problem with Reverse Escalation (it has been used at Adepticon BTW) is that the units that start off the table are then all really slow moving (and generally can't move and fire at long ranges.

At least with regular Escalation all the choices either move fast or are able to fire heavy weapons on the move, so for the most part the units can start to effect the game immediately when they arrive. With Reverse escalation your infantry moves slow and can't start firing at long ranges until it stops moving (for the most part).

So unless you make Reverse Escalation games 8+ turns long you really get some piss poor games out of it.

Ah, but knowing reverse escalation was a possibility, wouldn't you then change your army a bit to be prepared for such a possibility. If you don't, then it would be your own fault to a degree. It's like the SAFH walking forces, that hope not to get cleanse or recon. Like I said, anything that diversifies the army choices, is a good thing to me.

Escalation really hampers close combat MC's (Avatar, CC Carnifex, non-winged DP) that don't have a fast movement rate.

yakface wrote:
The problem with Reverse Escalation (it has been used at Adepticon BTW) is that the units that start off the table are then all really slow moving (and generally can't move and fire at long ranges.

At least with regular Escalation all the choices either move fast or are able to fire heavy weapons on the move, so for the most part the units can start to effect the game immediately when they arrive. With Reverse escalation your infantry moves slow and can't start firing at long ranges until it stops moving (for the most part).

So unless you make Reverse Escalation games 8+ turns long you really get some piss poor games out of it.

Which brings up another point - this wouldn't be much of an issue if GW didn't introduce the "dedicated transport" rule. IMO, that was a terrible idea. It makes sense that only the unit assigned to said transport may START the game in it, but once the damn thing is empty, why shouldn't someone else be able to ride it? Can you imagine the huge glut of empty transports at the front lines...?

Brother Sgt Apollo: Captain Mercurius! Half our troops are way out of position, and moving them 6" a turn means they're effectively out of the battle! What should I do?
Captain Mercurius: Well, the fighting is pretty thick here, but there seem to be plenty of Rhinos around... send some of them over to the other side of the table to fetch some reinforcements!
Rhino Machine Spirit 1: ++ID SCAN FAILED++ PERMISSION TO EMBARK TROOPS DENIED + THIS RHINO IS ASSIGNED TO THRID COMPANY SQUAD 10.
Rhino Machine Spirit 2: ++ID SCAN FAILED++ PERMISSION TO EMBARK TROOPS DENIED + THIS RHINO IS ASSIGNED TO THRID COMPANY SQUAD 2.
Rhino Machine Spirit 3: ++ID SCAN FAILED++ PERMISSION TO EMBARK TROOPS DENIED + THIS RHINO IS ASSIGNED TO THRID COMPANY SQUAD 5.
Captain Mercurius: Well, where the hell are those squads?
Sgt Apollo: Squad 2 is down to two men over there with the heavy bolter... Squad 10 was wiped out by a battlecannon round, and Squad 5 is over there fighting the blood let... uh, I mean... generic daemons.
Captain Mercurius (to Rhinos): Well... those squads are engaged or otherwise. Therefore, I'm going to reassign you to Squads 6, 7 and 8. Haul your asses over there and bring those men here.
Rhino Machine Spirit: ++NEGATIVE++ SQUAD ASSIGNMENT MAY ONLY BE RESET BY HOLY RITES OF ROSTER ADJUSTMENT BETWEEN BATTLES.
Captain Mercurius: For crying out loud... I CAN RIDE IN ANY RHINO I WANT... space permitting of course... why the hell can't I reassign you to another squad.
Rhino Machine Spirit: ++PERCEPTION NEGATIVE++ YOU MAY RIDE IN A RHINO IF YOU ARE ACCOMPANYING ASSIGNED SQUAD. PERMISSION TO EMBARK DENIED.
Captain Mercuirus: AUGH!

I'm not a fan of the notion that when punching a skimmer you get penalized twice.

Once, fine, sure, make the Pfist roll a 6. Its fair that its really hard to hit a skimmer zipping along. Once you hit it though, you ought to be able to penetrate it. It can't be too hard to place your shots when you are clinging to the bleeping thing. I say, Skimmers Moving Fast should apply only to range attacks.

1) One man moves all count as moving for heavy weapons.

2) Can't split fire.

3) Units can't rally under 50% (requiring lots of special rules to keep big units on the table).

4) Instant death (also has many special rules to avoid it).

5) The movement rules, any movenent rules that require a dice roll, split movement i.e. movement is the shooting phase for no reason.

6) Vehicles vs. monstrous creatures damage resolution.

7) The screening non-rule.

8) Psycannons vs. Bikes and Assassins.

I could go on...

The fact that a lascannon at 48" has the same chance to hit a grot as it does to hit a monolith.

Most of the freakshow elements of the Witchhunter codex:
Arco-Flagilents kill more of themselves than the enemy.
Penitent Engines must move forward, but the squadron rules make them destroyed if you stun one.

Trooper1: Hay, see that guy over there next to the tank?

Trooper2: No.

Trooper1: He's right there standing about 5" to the left of that enemy tank...I think he's their commander, we should shoot him.

Trooper2: I still don't see him.

Trooper1: Are you blind? He's standing in the middle of no where next to that tank.

Trooper2: I don't see anyone over there.

Trooper1: Wait, it looks like he took 3 steps forward.

Trooper2: Oh, now I see him. He wasn't the closest model before. Yah, lets blast him.

yakface wrote:Intuition

Gotcha. It's just when people usually talk about "intuition" they equate it to "unrealistic" because intuition apparently means realistic even though the guy spouting whatever is talking about realism in 40k.

Oh, forgot to add my own: The 1" from enemy models rule. It does nothing since players should be smart enough to know when a close combat is underway and it prevents all the clunky effects that happen when two friendly squads are near each other. I don't care much about "realism" even though you could coerce enemy attackers into narrow or wide attacks using units the enemy doesn't want to attack. You can still do the same, 1" rule or not. I think most players avoid this rule when it would cause two friendly units to make each other untouchable anyway so the rule serves no real effect.

How about the lack of serious hidden deployment rules?So, I deploy my scouts/infiltrators, who are excellent at sneaking around, and after one turn my opponent has opened up on them with everything they've got? Heh?

Removing Hull Down was also a bad, bad idea, imho.

The inability of a tanks' multiple weapons to split fire, also not a great rule.

The complete lack of ability to react to anything on the battlefield. Yes, Overwatch was too easily abused, but there should be some equivalent (perhaps requiring a LD check before going on? Oh, wait, everyone's LD 10 now. I forgot).

H.B.M.C. wrote:The penetrate = disembark rule is IDIOTIC.

Actually that rule makes sense, its how its handled that doesnt work. Tank crews do get out of vehicles that have been hit but not destroyed, if only temporarily. "Is it going to catch fire or isnt it" is a question best asked while on the outside. Tank fires are nasty hard to put out and get lethal too quickly, dither too long and you get cooked alive.

syr8766 wrote:The complete lack of ability to react to anything on the battlefield.

That's really more of a result of IGOUGO.

Vehicle combat sucks. The rules need to be developed for combat, not just jerking around with.

Assault rules suck. These are still some of the worst.

The Power Cosmic wrote:

syr8766 wrote:The complete lack of ability to react to anything on the battlefield.

That's really more of a result of IGOUGO.

Not really. Other games have dealt with it. Fantasy includes a charge reaction system where you can stand, shoot or flee when you get charged. Previous editions of 40K had overwatch mechanics to represent suppressive fire and the role of snipers on the battlefield.

Abstracting out any opponent reactions is a unique thing to recent editions of 40K.

I have no problems with holo-fields.

You do, thus, it's your problem, not mine.

If it was really so bad, why have I been beating Eldar armies reliably since the Codex was released?

I know, I know--it's broken to you.

I don't think it is.

It's broken to a lot of armies Stelek.

Asmodai wrote:Not really. Other games have dealt with it. Fantasy includes a charge reaction system where you can stand, shoot or flee when you get charged. Previous editions of 40K had overwatch mechanics to represent suppressive fire and the role of snipers on the battlefield.

Abstracting out any opponent reactions is a unique thing to recent editions of 40K.

IGOUGO would work just fine if they had kept overwatch. Some of you might find this astonishing, but I think the complete lack of some sort of reactive action is the number one problem in the game, and the only thing I prefer about 2nd ed.

I really dont have a problem with a pen knocking people out of the transports. It is realistic, and it is good game balance.

I definitely think more flavor needs to be added to vehicle combat. Some things that would be good would be limited turn radius at high speeds, splitting fire, ramming ( Ramming with hellhounds in 2nd ed was an important tactic for me, asside from the entertainment value).

vogelfrei wrote:It's broken to a lot of armies Stelek.

Don't worry too much about it. Stelek is obviously the ultimate authority on 40k. He's not like the rest of us common folk, contrained by the laws of probability...

Holofields should just confer a reroll IMO.

Another thing that's always bothered me is that there's no way to disengage from HTH (short of being Necrons, winning it, or dying). Nothing more ridiculous than having a wraithlord sitting there, swatting ineffectively at a huge horde of gaunts unable to disengage, while he looks over across the battlefield at the space marine dreadnought who just walked out of combat and is roasting those gaunts with a heavy flamer, having started in the same situation... I mean, maybe that huge squad of Guardians doesn't want to fight a carnifex in HTH... but now they're stuck until one side is dead.

keezus wrote:

vogelfrei wrote:It's broken to a lot of armies Stelek.

Don't worry too much about it. Stelek is obviously the ultimate authority on 40k. He's not like the rest of us common folk, contrained by the laws of probability...

Holofields should just confer a reroll IMO.

Another thing that's always bothered me is that there's no way to disengage from HTH (short of being Necrons, winning it, or dying). Nothing more ridiculous than having a wraithlord sitting there, swatting ineffectively at a huge horde of gaunts unable to disengage, while he looks over across the battlefield at the space marine dreadnought who just walked out of combat and is roasting those gaunts with a heavy flamer, having started in the same situation... I mean, maybe that huge squad of Guardians doesn't want to fight a carnifex in HTH... but now they're stuck until one side is dead.

Not just Necrons. My warp spiders can disengage at the end of a combat turn, and I think I may have one or two other Eldar things that can, but I dont use them, so I dont know for sure without my codex here with me.

Yeah it always seemed to me, especially with Tau or guard, that if you passed your Ld you should have the option to choose to stick around or try to escape.

And yes stelek, I'm sure you've cut down an entire scuttling genestealer swarm with firewarriors in assault.

Not sure if anyone has mentioned it or not, but the fact that you can roll low enough on the move through difficult terrain test to not get into cover strikes me as slowed. How hard would it be to say that you always make it to what's slowing you down at least? It also leads to nonsense like:

Enemy 4" away, in cover which begins 1" from you. You roll 6" on your difficult terrain move. So you are up on them and can charge, right? Nope, you are 1.00000001 inches away, and must now hope not to roll snake eyes. Grrr.

Grignard wrote:Not just Necrons. My warp spiders can disengage at the end of a combat turn, and I think I may have one or two other Eldar things that can, but I dont use them, so I dont know for sure without my codex here with me.

Mmm. Yes, I fogot about hit-and-run. Realized too late that walkers can't leave HTH either... so that analogy about the Dreadnought is incorrect as well...

This is probably not the right forum, but I wonder if 40k would function better with a "priority passing" system. "The player who goes first changes every game round"... This would give Mr. 2nd turn, two back to back turns, plus, first reserve roll!

>>I wonder if 40k would function better with a "priority passing" system.

No reason that can't be discussed here, it is perfectly reasonable topic.

My gut tells me it could create wild swings in the battle and actually make it better to go second to allow you to get the back-to-back turn with maximum possible strength by a clever or lucky setup at the start.

A more evenly phased approach would work better. For example, I move 1 unit, U move 1 unit, etc..., I shoot 1 unit, U shoot 1 unit, etc and so on and so forth.

Fire Warriors? You think I use them?

I have the 6 I have to.

don't think they've ever accomplished a damn thing.

About as useful as Kroot.

don't tell anyone but Scott Simpson ran a lot of them in the '07 GT season. It'll be our little secret.

Wait, so you don't use Firewarriors to cut down Genestealers?

Well, Moz, I think you owe somebody an apology!