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engine, take a chill pill. Who was "hating on American painters"? Quotations, please? As far as I can see, everyone's just loving on the French. What comparisons there are are pretty matter of fact, and don't seem to me to be at all insulting to the American scene.

Could it be that you are looking for a reason to be offended? When all you have is a warhammer, everyone starts to look like a troll etc.

tegeus-Cromis wrote:engine, take a chill pill. Who was "hating on American painters"? Quotations, please? As far as I can see, everyone's just loving on the French. What comparisons there are are pretty matter of fact, and don't seem to me to be at all insulting to the American scene.

Could it be that you are looking for a reason to be offended? When all you have is a warhammer, everyone starts to look like a troll etc.

The very first line of the very first post. It wasn't so much that the French GD entries were fantastic, but that the US/UK are bush league in comparison. Actually, the UK comment surprises me, as the same names seem to show up in both the French and UK winner's circles.

The best painters on the European continent show up in France. I'm sure national pride plays a part in this, but English, Russian, and Spanish painters have consistently placed well at the French GD.

From the get go, GW decided not to judge the GDs like historicals, where if certain benchmarks are met, they could hand out a number of golds, silvers and bronzes in any given event. Of course, the flip side is that there is a chance that no awards will be given out. GW went with the best three that show up. At smaller GD events, three awards need to be handed out, so you get what you get. At the time of the US GD explosion, you didn't have an even distribution of US painters. Many were concentrated around Chicago, so it was just easier to go to that venue then travel to Baltimore. There were very few in the southeast, and Atlanta suffered greatly.

When there was only GD Baltimore, I felt the US was tracking pretty well against the European counterparts. Once four (Atlanta, LA, Chicago, Toronto) more NA Game Days were added, there just wasn't enough painters to fill in the gaps. Sure, you could have headed to GD Atlanta and tried to Demon snipe with a dip job, and because it was a small venue, and there are no minimum requirements for a Demon, you may well have won. Again, if you are the best that shows up, you get hardware. It is as simple as that. But if the next year, you come with a dip job and win again, then well, the local community is letting down their local competition. I believe the American hobby community should be able to maintain at least a certain level of painting (and dignity) at all of our GDs.

Back on topic, I love the wizard duel as well. I would not have wanted to carry that in to the crowded exhibition hall. The French GD is a world-class event, where flawless realism and full sculpts are the rule rather than the exception. Congrats to all the winners there. I hope some day to go to that even and see some of this work in person. Truly, truly inspirational stuff.

engine wrote: [When there was only GD Baltimore, I felt the US was tracking pretty well against the European counterparts.

By that logic you only had one contest for a population of 300 million as opposed to 4 or 5 in Europe with roughly the same population to draw upon....oh, wait.

Personally I don't see why you are getting bent out of shape, Europeans have more time to paint than their fellow geeks in the New World and put on a better show. All this pissing and moaning while Lee Greenwood is playing in the background does not change the fact.

engine wrote:The US really needs to have one "Varsity GD", and it appears that GD Chicago has been the strongest for the last few years. It is going to take some time, and more dedicated hobbyists to raise the level of competition. And really, those hobbyists could be anyone reading this thread.

Nah, the U.S. "dream team" would still lose. Either they'd get beat by a team of white guys that do nothing but pass and shoot treys, or they'd drop the baton and get DQed.

There is nothing wrong with saying the French paint better. Its like saying the Japanese make better robot suit comics. After all no one out robot suit magas the Japanese.

Am I the only one who has picked up on the amount of non-green orks?

What always gets me, when I look at similar minis on CMON, is the amount of time they list in their miniatures.

First thing that comes to mind is a Daemon Prince on CMON with a great deal of freehand on the wings and an outstanding banner with a Catholic motif. It looked incredible no doubt...but IIRC the guy listed somewhere around 250 hrs painting. Who the hell has 250 hrs of painting time to devote to ONE miniature ?

More goodies from French Games Day.

http://www.vortexzone.fr/VZ-Pages/Reportages/Games-Days/GD-2008/GD-2008.html

AgeOfEgos wrote:What always gets me, when I look at similar minis on CMON, is the amount of time they list in their miniatures.

First thing that comes to mind is a Daemon Prince on CMON with a great deal of freehand on the wings and an outstanding banner with a Catholic motif. It looked incredible no doubt...but IIRC the guy listed somewhere around 250 hrs painting. Who the hell has 250 hrs of painting time to devote to ONE miniature ?

Ironically, that was Victor Hardy, an American, and I believe the time was more in the 500-600 hour range over two years. There are Americans that could compete, and that are considered "world class". I still point to Chris's win over Jeremie just last year. It can happen. Unfortunately some of the very best the US has to offer IMO (Victor, Marike, Haley to name a few) have either stopped competing, or stopped painting GW. A shame, really.

I was fired up about this yesterday, now, not so much. It does seem though, that every time some French GD coverage is posted, the community takes a moment to dig on the US GD scene. Nothing I can do about that.

I feel my point remains though. If your local GD isn't meeting your expectations, then do something about it. Complaining that "other hobbyists" are winning when they shouldn't, or that the top painters aren't prolific enough to place fantastic models for the 160 or so GDs awarded in North America each year is pointless. If the US GDs are not up to snuff, it is all of our faults. We either improve the situation, or accept the sub-par results.

Man, the French contestants are good though. That Slayer is just phenominal.

No it is not my fault whether the US GD is "up to snuff or not." Nothing I do, short of kidnapping some of these guys and forcing them to paint for GD's at banana point, will mean anything, anything at all.

engine, is there any one American painter reading this thread who will stand up and say hey, this complaining is an insult to me? Is there one talented person reading this who feels like we're accusing him or her personally of being lazy or outright sucking and is grievously hurt as a result? Because really, I get the feeling you are voicing all this outrage on behalf of people who really aren't outraged at it. I doubt anyone would take anything that's been said on this thread as a personal affront (not even you have done this--instead, you are oh-so-altruistically defending "American painters" in general). Why not give it a rest?

engine wrote: Ironically, that was Victor Hardy, an American, and I believe the time was more in the 500-600 hour range over two years. There are Americans that could compete, and that are considered "world class". I still point to Chris's win over Jeremie just last year. It can happen. Unfortunately some of the very best the US has to offer IMO (Victor, Marike, Haley to name a few) have either stopped competing, or stopped painting GW. A shame, really.

I was fired up about this yesterday, now, not so much. It does seem though, that every time some French GD coverage is posted, the community takes a moment to dig on the US GD scene. Nothing I can do about that.

I feel my point remains though. If your local GD isn't meeting your expectations, then do something about it. Complaining that "other hobbyists" are winning when they shouldn't, or that the top painters aren't prolific enough to place fantastic models for the 160 or so GDs awarded in North America each year is pointless. If the US GDs are not up to snuff, it is all of our faults. We either improve the situation, or accept the sub-par results.

Victor Hardy's Daemon Prince was savaged on Dakka when I posted it. They found it too busy and disjointed and said a few other worse things we won't delve into.

jfrazell wrote:No it is not my fault whether the US GD is "up to snuff or not."

Yes it is, you did not buy enough 2 wound Thousand Suns and paint pots that dry out 5 seconds after opening them! It is your fault, even more than it's Malfred's fault!

tegeus-Cromis wrote:engine, is there any one American painter reading this thread who will stand up and say hey, this complaining is an insult to me? Is there one talented person reading this who feels like we're accusing him or her personally of being lazy or outright sucking and is grievously hurt as a result? Because really, I get the feeling you are voicing all this outrage on behalf of people who really aren't outraged at it. I doubt anyone would take anything that's been said on this thread as a personal affront (not even you have done this--instead, you are oh-so-altruistically defending "American painters" in general). Why not give it a rest?

You are not going to find one, Atlanta already has the reputation as an easy way to get a Slayer Sword most of the painters know the foibles of the US Golden Daemons.

Mekboy wrote:Am I the only one who has picked up on the amount of non-green orks?

I noticed that too. I liked 'em though. So many nice models...

That's cuz non-green orks are the best.

Dice Monkey wrote:

jfrazell wrote:No it is not my fault whether the US GD is "up to snuff or not."

Yes it is, you did not buy enough 2 wound Thousand Suns and paint pots that dry out 5 seconds after opening them! It is your fault, even more than it's Malfred's fault!

Well any army that has two wounds each, has a lot going for it.

Don;t want to insult anyone..but after going to the UK, French, and Canadian GDs and having friends who went to the US GDs and seeing some US GD winning models up close before, I wanted to share some thoughts.

First, the comment on people competing with French or spanish, etc....

I think the biggest difference between the US and French GDs is the judging. The french main judge IS the previous years sword winner. So thus, this year, Allan Carrasco was the main judge. This makes a HUGE difference. I will give 2 examples based on friends that went to GD LA a few years ago and Chicago last year.

In Chicago, we all know, Chris won with a great Primarch statue sculpt... a friend mentioned something. Some will argue, some will agree..either way, from photos I have seen, from the same camera, what my friends there noticed was:

both models, Jeremies and Chris' were awesome however, when looking up close, Jeremies was MUCH smoother. In my friends opinions, the judges chose Chris' model cause they preferred it but in a pure technical painting stand point, it wasn;t as good as Jeremies...not even close.

The same thing happened in LA. A few years ago, the winner was some black templar squad..however, it did not display super freehand, or perfect blends, etc. It was painted more like a higher standard of what you see in WD for standard GW paintscheme. Flawless black coats, with edge hilites, etc. There was a shaggoth there that had great blending and perfect smooth coats of paints, etc...but it didn't win the sword. what several people noticed, the judge who choose the sword was Dave something of GW USA..he was NOT at the paint table that day..he appeared just to choose the sword winner. He looked at the final 3 models that were going to get the sword from..and after about 30 seconds, choose the templars. That same year, the templars had been released. Remember, GW uses GD as a marketting trick as well. It looks good if a model that wins, is also on that is new and on sale at that time and in people's heads. Now, note, my friends told me this..I was NOT there, but they are much better painters than me, and I trust their judgement and don'tthink they would lie to me about that...espec since again, I got to see all the clsoe up pics they could take...I personally was not a fan of that shaggoth but the paintjob was very nice from a technical standpt. I think the modle was a shaggoth..it was converted as well so it could have been a demon prince..but anywyas.

Now france...when i was there, what you notice, well, what i noticed was the previous sword winner (theyear I went, Jeremie was the judge) was looking closely at everything, some had magnifying glasses (if a model is perfectly smooth blends via a magnifying glass..it's truly awesome).

The difference here.... from seeing all those french and spanish and uk models up close and holding them, you can see that regardless of whether they like the colour choice, etc they are looking for the pure technical skills.


If any blend has a watermark...done..you won;t win. if any freehand is rough, done...also out, etc.

My entry was a joke and I knew i would get rocked. But fiancee at the time (now wife) wanted me to go there since we would be in paris anyways....

BUT, someone here put out a great point..not about the sculpting, whcih i love and wish we'd see that here in Toronto more (Vincent's works rock!!!!), but the level of painters. Remember everyone, many of the french and spanish are professional artists by their job or trained classical artists via school.

Jeremie for example painted for a spanish company. Allan worked for Ilyad. JAG sculpted some stuff for JMD, etc. People like Allan and JMD IMHO are just asgoodas the Forgeworld sculptors ( i have several of their models..and they have done smaller resin models that are just as detailed as FW works!!!!)...

Due to tehir backgrounds, the art is also taken more seriously. Here, if I am in local GW, I hear people walk by and laugh at people in the store, or snide remarks about why are adults in a toy store, etc (I'm 30)....when I was there....when people showed ofsomething really impressive in a store that week, even people walking by came in to see, even if they didnt care for the games at all. It is an art in it's own right (alot of the techniques are the same as painting on other surfaces anyways) and it is treated as such.

here, most of us are just people who love D&D, Warhammer, Warmachine, Reaper, etc and collect/paint/play whenver we can.

Also, another problem i think is, when people go to a GW here, the techniques taught at the stores just don't cut it for competitions such as GDs (certainlyy not in europe or even australia), and not even close to stuff at Ravage, Euromillitaire and the big boy of them all, World Expo.... people had to learn on their own, etc.

when i show my models at a store here, i get people asking me what i did, etc..althoguh i am quite disappointed in my work since i'm not progressin as well/fast as i would like but i keep trying. I arranged a class with Vincent Hudon in Sept 2007. some friends from the states came up for it and we had 12 people I believe. vincent taught techniques he learned from similar classes that Team Montreal held with Jeremie, and Allan in the years prior. It;s shocking. he went into basically just the painting techniques and a bit of theory, but not being an artist by education, he didn;t touch much of the colour theory, etc stuff that Jeremie would. The concept of how the frenchand spanish paint is SOOOOO basic but applying it properly takes forever...so it's just practice to get it right. (i can't but my works are getting better slowly).

On top of that, they do other concepts for how to pose models, natural basing, sculptingg for impact (ie. make the model you WANT , instead of using the cookie cutter stuff that anyone can buy off the shelf), etc.

These type of classes are what we all need to raise our level ...

In fact, there are some going on in may, july in the USA I believe

sigh..that was too long..sorry everyone for the long post.

Regards,

Sanjay

Taking a magnifying glass to see blending at a US or Canadian GD for 99% of the entries would just be funny. Hell, I thought I was doing well until I finally used a magnifying headset to do some eyes. Time to revisit that technique.

There's a Giant in there that has skin that looks like real skin. Unfortunately, it's proven to me that even with a A+++ perfect, utterly flawless and totally realistic paintjob, GW's plastic Giant still looks stupid.

BYE

Using a magnifying headset with a daylight lamp really humbles you to how bad some of your own paint jobs are and how good some of these pro's are.

I paint a little (not too much at a high level as I just want a finished army!!) but when I do these techniques are always much more exposing undering a magnifing glass.

As for giants,
the ultraforge one all the way!!

I really don't think painting contests for toy soldiers are worth breaking out my national pride over, sorry.

But I love seeing French GDs. I don't always agree with every painting decision there or even like all the models (even as I marvel over their technical quality), but almost every time they show me something that I did not know was possible with model painting.

The OZGD judges have used magnifying glasses for the last couple of years for the top ranked finalists.

Not sure why this had to turn into a US painters are no good thread.
Lets just accept that as far as technical painting goes these are beautiful.

Thanks for the links.

Waaagh_Gonads wrote:these are beautiful

Agreed.

On a more serious note I think the daemonette and the harlequin should fight to the death. In jello.

While Lisa Ekhdal sings "My Heart Belongs To Daddy".

French people paint good.

I really like that demonette.. hubba hubba.

When the 28 mm. miniature of simple plastic or tin becomes a piece of Art, all "judging" is very relative, or is it not?

Oh God, i'm the "flower picking".. what? An Eldar hippie or something ^^

Some really cool looking stuff in there. Its events like this that make me want to get back out the brush. I know I'll never be on that level (I just don't have the time), but it does make me want to go out and give it my best.

Why are the french orks not green? Presumably to stop them being eaten by jusdges after mistaking them for frogs. Arf.