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I am sure it's possible to help him balance the thing without crying cheese/abuse/cheating every other paragraph.

"Common sense" kills the idea of any ICE-driven tank firing deadly laser beams. Hell, "common sense" kills the idea of Titans, period (well, I guess they could fight in zero-G). What, the OP wants a tank with a Huge (x10!!!) laser cannon instead of merely a Huge (x5!!) laser cannon? Oh noes, my willing suspension of disbelief has suddenly been destroyed. It was all so plausible before!

As for balance, consider that he could get an actual Shadowsword for 125 more points, or a dual TLD Warhound for twice those points.

Corpsman_of_Krieg wrote:DeathGod:
Well if he changed the Turbolaser with coax Autocannon to just a Volcano Cannon, would you be okay with it?

Jeez, chill out. It's Apocalypse - it's supposed to be for fun.

I mean, I plan on playing a "Battle of the Broken" with Extrenm(54) this summer, where each of us bring about 3000 points of HQ choices. That's ridiculous, but we'll still have fun (Despite the fact that he has a Nightbringer) without getting all bent outta shape because of something being too powerful for an ad hoc play style.

CK

I enjoy playing apocalypse, we have a guy at our store who fields 5 space marine character each from a different chapter. He fields the deceiver and nightbringer when he plays necrons. The difference between him and this guy is they aren't armed with Vulcan Megabolters and Deathstrike missles. "Broken" or not they have valid rules.

I don't care what he does with his model. He asked for opinions and mine is I wouldn't play this model with those rules and I wouldn't play against it if I were his oponent.

Wasn't there a IG model that had was called a titan killer or something along those lines.


It just had a laser cannon on its hull and it was just a Russ or Chimera mount. It is in the Imperial Armour books I think the first one.

I think that was a baneblade variant, IIRC, shadowstorm or summat... shadowsword. That's the beggar.

I absolutely adore the cries of "But wait! That doesn't look like the imaginary gun in my head does, so it's not legal!" Maybe later you can say his space marines don't wear their ammo pouches properly, so they are disqualified.
That and the assertion that it's engine can't power the laser, despite the fact it has zero passenger space, which usually takes up ~75% of the central part of the tank, which could be used for whatever sort of power plant one wants.

Seriously people, get your panties out of their bunch. Yea, it has a strong weapon, but that weapon blows itself up, if the enemy's pile of anti-tank weapons don't do that first. Which they will, considering landraiders are not considered survivable enough in standard games, much less "Hi, I brought all my anti-tank squads" Apoc games.

Heavygear wrote:The turbo laser is only mounted on Titans and is usually more than one barrel so technically your gun doesn't even exist within the rules.

Um... according to my copy of Apocalypse there's a Volcano Cannon mounted on the Warlord Battle Titan (p.124) with 240" range and a 10" blast. Should he use those rules instead? Would that be fair then?

Heavygear wrote:You've added a co axial autocannon which actually allows you to reroll misses, Titans don't even get this.

It's probably a minor thing in your view, but he does have to hit with it (the autocannon) before getting the "free" reroll. My only issue with the autocannon is that it isn't really coaxial the way he's modeled it and it doesn't really look right on the vehicle. That and you don't usually fire tracers to target for a laser.

Heavygear wrote:You make up a weak rule to allow you to mount a titan class weapon to a model that is a heavy support choice, not even a super heavy.

You rant like someone's forcing you to play against him in a tournament with cash money at stake. How about a little less ranting and a little more constructive criticism? If you think the rule is weak, show him how to make a better rule.

Heavygear wrote:Again you could have made this a reasonable variant by using say a another standard tank weapon or even just a baneblade cannon which is what is modeled on the tank anyway. Apocalypse is supposed to be strictly WYSIWYG. Its in the rules.

Heavygear wrote:Instead you have intentionally gone through the data sheets and found a weapon that will give you the maximum advantage you can get. Total cheese. That why I wouldn't play against this. It's not in the spirit of creativity or modeling or fair competition. Its just cheating.

You're sure that's what he did? You really sure? Cause I don't see that. Cut the guy a break. Did you once stop and think that maybe he just wanted a big honking lascannon looking weapon mounted on his land raider? I've said that I've been working on something similar. Never once did I look at a datasheet before planning it. It just "seemed" logical to convert a land raider into a "predator annihilator" style beast. But if you want another "Baneblade cannon", Forgeworld has conversion kits that give the Baneblade a Plasma Blastgun. How's that? Would that be fair? I'm asking because it seems like you're the one obsessed with going through datasheets and figuring out values.

Heavygear wrote:The only redeeming thing about this vehicle is that it doesn't have structure points.

You talk like that isn't a big thing. It doesn't have void shields either. And 14 armor is a joke to Dark Eldar. And regular Eldar. And infiltrating Space Wolf Scouts with lots of meltabombs. And multimelta wielding attack bikes. And anyone fielding a titan or Baneblade (which is half the armies out there at least). And don't forget that lone character with a melta/combi pistol - yea, those guys never pop a Land Raider.

Heavygear, define "valid rules."

Less Rules Lawyering and More C&C on Modeling and Painting.

If folks really feel the need, please, go start a thread in the appropriate forum.

Thank you for your cooperation.

Valid rules would be rules written by GW for that model.

Grey Death I fail to see why actually being able to read the rules, understand them and follow them is "rules lawyering".

He can always give it structure points. It's his creation and if the people who play vs. it are cool with it, who cares?

Capt K

Wow, go to work for 1 day. :p

For everyone who thinks the Autocannon is cheese. The Re-roll was very much a secondary consideration to it. Coaxialism is to force it to fire at the same target as the Turbolaser. Originally I wanted to use a long barreled multi-laser for that,since it can actually knock down all 3 shields on a Warhound before the Turbolaser hits. Maximum effectiveness. But I was convinced that that would be pushing the "cheese" envelope a bit too much, especially since the Marines don't really use Multi-lasers on anything.

The Autocannon is where it is because (and this is important) I think it looks cool. I was already mounting the "Machine Spirit" to the top of the hull, and there's a ready aperature in an STC Hull shell just waiting for an Autocannon to be poked through it.

If you're really that tied up about it and are going to thrash around on the floor screaming cheese and frothing at the mouth, when you build your own, call it a Vanquisher Cannon (that's what I was going to use the barrel for before I struck upon this idea) and stick the Autocannon wherever the hell you like on the model.

what's the big deal about a co-axial autocannon?

Is this the same 2 shot str 7 ap 4 gun we are all talking about?

I gotta agree, though, that the AC could use a bit more integration. It does look tacked on the way it is now. It lets the model down a bit.

I think building a cowl over the AC might help to integrate it a bit if you really want to keep it there.
I would recommend moving it to being attached to the bigger gun though, and perhaps put either a lens aperture sort of thing in it's place, or even a scroll/book/dancing grass skirt girl over the hole.

Still, other than the AC, I think it is a really strong model and like it a lot.

I think simply shortening the barrel of the autocannon (maybe by half) would help the integration immensely - if that's what you're going for.

This model is great - it really screams "assault gun" or "tank hunter" to me, with the hull-mounted weapon and all. I don't think it's cheesy at all either, especially since it's primarily for Apocalypse.

Seriously, the conversion is slick...so who gives a crap what the gun counts as, especially in games where you have Titans running around that are going to most likely blow it off the table? I say go for it. Personally I think it's awesome.

i think the model as a whole works realy well, save for the autocanon, its to obviously been stuck over the slot there...

if its about cutin a whole maybe think about melting ta hole about the same size and then file down the excess and slide the auto cannon in

I want one for my crimson hawks marines. Thing looks badass. nice work btw.

I love it. Makes sense that the Fists would have one too.

Great conversion.

BYE

Feor, your tank looks good.

But it is grossly overpowered for the points and hull. And it isn't WYSIWYG, so doesn't even match what you've modeled. So rules-wise, it doesn't past muster in the slightest. Rules to model, I wouldn't allow it. And definitely not at a too-cheap 325 pts.

Titan Turbo-Laser is the most powerful weapon in the game, and you definitely haven't modeled that. At best, you have a Baneblade Cannon. But no way would I accept that as a Turbo-Laser. No way.

The Machine Spirit rule is just brokenly wrong. You get to fire a Titan weapon all the time? No way.

The very idea that a small vehicle can move and fire a Titan-class weapon? No way.

And arguing that it only gets to fire once? Only if you make that an actual rule - "Single Shot = the Apollo may only fire the Titan weapon once per game".

The Overgunned rule is close, but not right: "Overgunned = when the Titan weapon is fired, roll a die: on a 1, Vehicle Annihilated (per Ordnance Penetrating 6); on a 2, Vehicle Explodes (per Penetrating 6); otherwise, the Vehicle suffers a Glancing Hit (resolve after firing).


Now, I'm not totally unreasonable, so I'd accept:

AV14/14/14
1x Short-Barreled Earthshaker (R60" S9 AP3 Heavy 1 Ordnance Blast)
1x Autocannon (R48" S7 AP4 Heavy 2)
2x Heavy Bolter sponsons (R36" S5 AP4 Heavy 3)

This weapon fit is probably worth 300 pts, as it gives Space Marines excellent long-range high-strength Ordnance that they don't currently possess, on a very durable AV14 platform.

And what's nice is that it actually more-or-less follows the rules for what you've actually built.

At least allow the gun to represent what it actually is in kit terms: a Baneblade cannon.

It's unfair to talk about the capabilities it gives SMs "that they don't currently possess." This is Apoc. If SMs don't possess it, one can easily get it elsewhere. Units should be balanced against every other unit in the game, irrespective of faction.

He could get an actual twin TLD Warhound titan for the cost of two of these. I don't see how this thing's unbalanced for Apoc.

I don't believe it is possible to mount Titan weapons or their lesser equivalents (e.g. a Baneblade Cannon) on things that lack structure points. That is why I suggest it counts as a Earthshaker.

If it is Apoc, let him pay full Warhound points and dollars to field one.

It's not so unbalanced taken singly. But it's the same problem that we had with VDR, allowing people to take hyper-efficient vehicles. Expecially when those vehicles aren't even WYSIWYG.

I don't believe it is possible to mount Titan weapons or their lesser equivalents (e.g. a Baneblade Cannon) on things that lack structure points.

Why not? Because tanks that are very big instead of very very big can only mount weapons that are very big and not very very big?

If it is Apoc, let him pay full Warhound points and dollars to field one.

Well, you can let him do that. I would rather let him use his nice and, unless massed, pretty balanced model. To each their own.

It's not so unbalanced taken singly. But it's the same problem that we had with VDR, allowing people to take hyper-efficient vehicles. Expecially when those vehicles aren't even WYSIWYG.

I don't see what's so hyper-efficient about it. Is it more efficient than a standard LR? Yes, much more so, but standard LRs are kind of gak in Apoc, aren't they?

You get as many TLD shots as you would for an equivalent points cost of Warhounds, with less durability. I don't think that's cheesy.

That's a really awesome tank, but the autoocannon really doesn't look like it belongs there at all. I detracts from the whole, I think it would look alot better with just that one big gun in the front.
And the way the cannon is mounted, I don't see how you could install any co-axial weapon that would actually look the part.

Personally, I really want to see the model for the Chicken Hawk that was mentioned earlier...

IMOA I would not have mounted the Autocannon there and i think the main gun is over powered...... but as i never made this it's not important.

I like the model, its well made and looks cool on the battlefield.

Good work!

Well to be honest I think it a lil bit underpriced and the rules seem a bit shaky. To justify the point cost (the LR terminus is 25 points cheaper I would:

- Keep the cannon, it is something that marines lack in a game full of titans. Fix the rule so that if the cannon rolls a 2 on attack, the cannon alignment has been drastically skewed and you cannot fire the main weapon next shooting phase. On a roll of a 1 the cannon overheats and cannot shoot for one turn, as well as suffering a glancing hit on a 1,2,3,4 and a penetrating hit on a 5,6. On top of that this AND only this penetrating hit counts hitting an open topped vehicle.

- Cannot transport (extra power converters take up the passenger space)

- On a penetrating hit, if any explosions are created, 6d6 is rolled for explosion distance.

That would be fine with me. Risky tank to deploy but very useful. Please also let us not forget that it has ZERO structure points, so it really is a 1 hit wonder.

nice conversion.

people are just jealous they didn't make it first

Feor wrote:My first real Apocalypse conversion, the Land Raider Apollo.
325 points
Turbolaser Destructor w/ Coax Autocannon
Heavy Bolter Sponsons

Specal Rules:
"Oversized weapon" If you roll a 1 to hit with the Turbolaser, roll an additional D6. On a 1-5 the Turbolaser may not fire next turn. On a 6, the Turbolaser and autocannon are destroyed and the tank is stunned next turn.

"Slaved Spirit" The Machine spirit may always fire the Turolaser and autocannon, and may select a target seperate from the tank's crew, but may never fire any other weapons or move the tank.

What I always thought the Terminus should have been.

I like the modelling. I am a huge fan of scratch builds but mounting a superheavy weapon on a land raider, which is not superheavy, is just silly. Also, thinking that a super machine spirit which is somehow better than a normal machine spirit isn't anywhere in the fluff. Last time a machine spirit was that good, it was dumping loyalists out into the void and having accidents in the launch bays (dreadclaws).

Titan hammer squads are a very viable options for one of the most powerful armies in the game (possibly most powerful). In 40k, energy weapons have kickback, how would a landraider possibly compensate for it?

Like I said, cool looking model but I reckon, you would get the stink eye around here for trying to field it.

If i may make a suggestion The main cannon looks great the small one just looks like you glues it to the lights I would make some sort of housing out of plastic card to extend the light frame and go around the cannon. hope that make sence

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Now, I'm not totally unreasonable, so I'd accept:

AV14/14/14
1x Short-Barreled Earthshaker (R60" S9 AP3 Heavy 1 Ordnance Blast)
1x Autocannon (R48" S7 AP4 Heavy 2)
2x Heavy Bolter sponsons (R36" S5 AP4 Heavy 3)

This weapon fit is probably worth 300 pts, as it gives Space Marines excellent long-range high-strength Ordnance that they don't currently possess, on a very durable AV14 platform.

And what's nice is that it actually more-or-less follows the rules for what you've actually built.

you what? you say the weapon should be what it is, so you class a baneblade cannon as a "short-barreled earthshaker" thats even worse than saying its a turbo laser!

so would you say my conversion http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/215726.page#353598 is a 'short barreled lasgun' or something.