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Man, oh man...

I thought people would have learned to NOT argue rules with Yak anymore, its just a unwinnable attempt.

Yak - agreed that the intent is there, and the wording is poor due to the Chaos FAQ.

You were at least somewhat involved. What is the purpose of the FAQ stating that they are not classified as jump infantry,..... Is this directed at the DP, and someone wanting to somehow degrade it's MC status by trying to call it jump infantry? I can find no other destiction for a sorcerer as an example. If a sorcerer gets wings and can move as jump infantry, how is that any different from being classified as jump infantry?

yamato wrote: If a sorcerer gets wings and can move as jump infantry, how is that any different from being classified as jump infantry?

He can still board transports, and enter buildings.
Under 4th edition, he would have been able to deploy in an Escalation mission.

cool, thanks

Gee, arguing with yakface is pointless, is it?

Since no one seems to grasp what I'm saying, despite saying it fifteen ways from Sunday, I'll try once more.

Then if it's more knee-jerk 'Stelek is wrong, Yakface is right' reactions you know where to drop your vote.

Rules refuting yaks "argument". I barely can call it that.

1st verse:

Page 52. "Different unit types...

So far the rules have just dealt with troops that around on foot - infantry. These unit types have different rules for the way they move, how terrain affects them, how far they can assault, and so on."

Starting to sound good, why I'm almost a believer! I'd better keep reading though.

"In any given situation during a battle, if the Codex doesn't say any different, follow the rules for the appropriate unit type, and if those rules don't say anything different, follow the basic rules for infantry."

UH OH. This is where the anti-Stelek crowd "quotes" me and says "clearly this means just what we say it does and you are wrong as always." A lame argument, but it will be made.

So let's go to the rest of the rules, but correct it for the ruling GW made. See, GW made a bad ruling and those arguing with me are trying to confuse RAI with RAW. Sadly, while that's nice it's about as useful in a rules discussion as "the fluff says". Oh and 4th edition means nothing, this is the updated 5th edition FAQ and we have to use it.

Now let's get the ruling in here:

Q: Does taking 'Wings' classify a model as jump infantry?

A: No, it simply allows the model to move like jump infantry.

So let's look at the rule for jump infantry and how it's modified by this FAQ.

Movement, P52: Note I've substituted in ITALICS how the rules read when modified.

Winged infantry can use their jump packs (or equivalent) and move up to 12" in the Movement phase. This is optional and they can choose to move as normal infantry if they wish. When using winged movement, they can move over all other models and all terrain freely.

Skip the part about jump infantry being affected by difficult terrain, they told you in the FAQ answer that they are NOT classified as Jump infantry. Remember that part about unit types? The unit type is INFANTRY or in the case of Demon Princes, MONSTROUS CREATURE. Neither unit type is modified, as clearly answered in the FAQ.

So you go to page 14 (for Lords and Sorcerors) and see that since you can move 12" you don't have to roll for difficult terrain to move into it per the Jump Infantry rules.

Demon Princes have the extra modifier of being a Monstrous Creature and rolling 3D6" for entering, but you don't have to do that either (although it does grant you an advantage when moving to assault).

In short, you are not affected by the entire set of jump infantry rules because they apply ONLY to jump infantry rules.

Oh and for the person saying you can use this for your Hive Tyrants, does your Codex say you take difficult terrain tests when landing in terrain? Yes because unlike the Chaos Codex, YOUR Wings entry says you are CLASSED as Jump Infantry in all respects. The Chaos Codex (and the FAQ in particular) does NOT say this.

Move as is not the same as 'is' because the rules SPECIFICALLY tell you that if the Codex doesn't cover it, then you use the rules for infantry.

Don't believe me? Read the Chaos Winged entry, then read the Tyranid Winged entry.

They ARE different. The FAQ ruling is CLEARLY telling you that you are NOT classified as jump infantry in all respects when running Winged Chaos characters, only in how far you move.

Until INFANTRY have to take a difficult terrain test that forces armor saves, you do not have to take any such tests.

It's a badly written rule. I understand what GW might have intended. Means nothing until they write it up.

You saying I'm wrong doesn't change the facts outlined above.

So essentially, the ruling was meant to hinder winged Princes from becoming jump infantry but it has also, in turn, made it so Lords and Sorcerers don't become jump infantry as well. From what I can tell the change to winged lords and sorcerers was simply a side effect.

Stelek,

The codex: "Models equipped with wings move in the same way as Jump Infantry as described in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook."
The FAQ:

Q. Does taking 'Wings' classify a model as jump infantry?
A. No, it simply allows the model to move like jump infantry.

So the models "move in the same way as jump infantry" or "move like jump infantry". "The models move as jump infantry." has exactly the same meaning as "The models move as if there were jump infantry model." and "The models are jump infantry model for the purposes of movement."

It is unreasonable to claim that the 40k rules are written to a standard where one could reasonably argue semantic points at the degree of precision required for your argument to work. Lacking that precision, if it moves like a duck it is a duck for those rules.

Man, I have waffled back and forth on this, but it seems that I will have to come back to my initial gut feeling on this, and say that all models that move as jump infantry are required to take this test.

When the FAQ says that they "move like Jump Infantry" I would say that they are subject to everything in the paragraph entitled "Movement" within the Jump Infantry unit description section.

In effect, the FAQ says that you use the initial unit type of the winged charachter for all rules other than movement. When you get to movement, you have to follow the rules set out for Jump Infantry for movement.

@Solkan:

I'm sorry my explanation wasn't clear enough for you.

I've already outlined my point and you haven't refuted it (hyperbole like "unreasonable" and "semantics" doesn't win arguments, it just red herrings them).

@ yamato

This is a nice way to play, and may even be what GW intended.

Sadly, that isn't what is in the rules.

I was quite clear in describing the chain of failure in the rules, and what you say is your opinion without the rules backing you up.

If you can refute the chain of failure I outlined, please do so.

i think a better question is:

do jump infantry that begin and end their movement in two different pieces of difficult terrain have to take two dangerous terrain tests?

according to the wording, they must only take one per movement phase.

I agree it is a better question.

I believe it is just one test.

Stelek wrote:I've already outlined my point and you haven't refuted it

What's to refute?

So far, your argument boils down to: They follow the movement rules for Jump Infantry, except for the ones that I say they don't follow.

That doesn't even come close to holding water.

i guess that what i don't get about this debate, overall, is that the same thing happens all the time.

a rule is written badly, or outside of the mainstream patterning of similar rules, and then the debate ensues - what was the intent of the rule? should we play it as it should be, or how it was written?

can we just acknowledge that KNOWLEDGE OF INTENT IS REQUIRED!?

better still, since yakface is now writing the rules, can he just make a call and say "what did you guys intend to do?" after which he can simply FAQ/ERRATA something so that its wording correctly conveys intent?!

this would save a lot of headaches... it might even make the internet useless because there would be nothing left to complain about.

Anyone else got a red herring they want to throw me? I have a cat that's hungry!

but "is not".

Still looking for that part in the BRB....

I don't really see what is hard for everyone to understand. If they have wings they move as jump infantry, they aren't jump infantry. This means they move 12" ignoring terrain. That's it. Now since they aren't Jump Infantry look under Infantry, do they take dangerous terrain tests for moving around in terrain? The rules as written are vague here though and probably "streamlined" to make it take up less space by saying move as jump infantry rather than move 12" and ignore terrain.

I think a majority of you are just siding with Yak because no one likes Stelek.

Typeline wrote: If they have wings they move as jump infantry, they aren't jump infantry.

So if they gain the positive part of moving as jump infantry, why wouldn't they also gain the negative?

What is it exactly that says that you take one part of the JI movement rules but not the other?


Their actual unit type doesn't matter in the slightest. They're moving as Jump Infantry, and so they follow the rules for Jump Infantry movement.

OK fine then... since the rulebook says
"JUMP infantry can use their jump packs (or equivalent) and move up to 12" in the Movement phase." p.52

then models with wings says can't move 12" since the rulebook says JUMP INFANTRY. If the camp that says they don't make dangerous terrain tests is that stubborn, then i say our camp won't let them move 12" (since they get to pick and choose why can't we) but since they move as jump infantry we can let them move over other models and such with their 6" move without making dangerous terrain tests.

RAAAAAARWR!!!!

insaniak wrote:

Typeline wrote: If they have wings they move as jump infantry, they aren't jump infantry.

So if they gain the positive part of moving as jump infantry, why wouldn't they also gain the negative?

What is it exactly that says that you take one part of the JI movement rules but not the other?


Their actual unit type doesn't matter in the slightest. They're moving as Jump Infantry, and so they follow the rules for Jump Infantry movement.

The part of the rules I quoted say differently.

Quote rules that contradict the ones I quoted.

This is the rule that kills you:

"In any given situation during a battle, if the Codex doesn't say any different, follow the rules for the appropriate unit type, and if those rules don't say anything different, follow the basic rules for infantry."

So the FAQ says they MOVE as Jump Infantry. That means a 12" move, ignoring terrain and other models (well, so long as you don't land on them) and has a caveat about impassable terrain.

That's all the movement.

Nowhere does it say they treat difficult terrain as jump infantry because the CODEX does not tell you to follow any other rules, so you revert to following the infantry rules like the Codex says.

The Winged entry in the Tyranid Codex is worded CORRECTLY and you MUST follow ALL the Jump Infantry rules. This does mean ALL of it, because you ARE a jump infantry model in ALL ways.

Not just movement, but movement AND difficult terrain.

The Winged entry allows you to deep strike from the Chaos Codex, but if it did not say that SPECIFICALLY then you could NOT deep strike because you are NOT a jump infantry model.

Can you see it now?

Maybe if Yak posted this, everyone would jump on the love bandwagon and we'd have agreement.

FFS.

The faq says move LIKE Jump infantry not AS jump infantry. Therefor you cannot move 12" however you may ignore models and terrain for movement purposes.

Stelek wrote:Nowhere does it say they treat difficult terrain as jump infantry because the CODEX does not tell you to follow any other rules, so you revert to following the infantry rules like the Codex says.

It doesn't have to say that they treat difficult terrain as Jump Infantry, because it already says that they move like Jump Infantry.

So, to determine how a model that moves like JI moves, you refer to the Movement rules for JI.
The Movement rules for JI state that the model moves 12", and that when they are moving, if that move begins or ends in difficult terrain, they take the test.

Unless you can find something in the codex that says that a model that moves like JI doesn't actually move in order to get around, you have no argument here.

Movement is movement. If something follows a given set of movement rules, then it follows all of that set of movement rules, not just the ones that you personally think should apply.

Wait, I should find something in the rules that makes your argument work for you when you haven't refuted my own argument? That's a neat trick. It's like answering a question with a question.

Jump Infantry models (only) take dangerous terrain tests for moving into terrain. Infantry do not.

Winged Chaos Characters are not Jump Infantry models.

If you have an actual rule to quote instead of more red herrings, please find it and quote it.

I'm waiting for someone (anyone) to actually do a cogent analysis and show rules that contradict what I posted.

Obviously, that isn't you insaniak.

Stelek wrote:Wait, I should find something in the rules that makes your argument work for you when you haven't refuted my own argument?

I haven't refuted your argument because you haven't provided one.

Once again, 'Because I say so' is not an argument.


Instead of snide remarks, how about providing a rule that backs up your apparent belief that moving into difficult terrain isn't moving?

How about instead of everyone focusing on being a total geek with your "HAHA! You didn't provide a true argument because it doesn't follow the argumentation formula!" lets just discuss something and not focus on arguing like children.

Stelek wrote:
Jump Infantry models (only) take dangerous terrain tests for moving into terrain. Infantry do not.

Winged Chaos Characters are not Jump Infantry models.

I think this is a very good start to uncover what the rules are intended to do in this situation. It says Jump Infantry models take dangerous terrain tests for moving into terrain. I think that loophole is purposely there to provide things that move as if they were JI to not have to take those dangerous terrain tests. It's just an advantage for having wings, it's easier for them to avoid injury in terrain. It's one of the reasons why you are actually required to model Chaos Sorcs/Lords with wings instead of Jump Packs if your giving them the wings upgrade. If there isn't a rules distinction between the two then there would be no need to model them differently. The jump packs turn them into Jump Infantry while the Wings just give them the ability to move as if there were jump infantry while they still remain troops.

Now let me provide my own argument (Yeah, I know I just did it) against myself. If the above is the case why even have the Jump Pack upgrade? It honestly doesn't make sense. In the CSM codex they both cost the same and do almost exactly the same thing. In the wings entry it says they move as if they were JI and on the Jump Packs they become JI models. There is a clear and pretty distinct advantage to modeling the wings rather than the Jump Packs other than that extra Jump Packs are easier to come across.

So once again GW has left us unclear rules and we're all bawing at each other over it on the internet now. Looks like it's time for an errata.

Typeline wrote:How about instead of everyone focusing on being a total geek with your "HAHA! You didn't provide a true argument because it doesn't follow the argumentation formula!" lets just discuss something and not focus on arguing like children.

I wasn't asking for a formula. I was asking for Stelek to provide a reason for disregarding the parts of the rule that he chooses to disregard.

It says Jump Infantry models take dangerous terrain tests for moving into terrain.

And by extension, this therefore has to apply to any model that moves as Jump Infantry.

The model is moving.
When it moves, it does so using the rules for Jump Infantry movement.
The rules for Jump Infantry movement say that when Jump Infantry move in difficult terrain, they take the test.
Ergo, models that move as Jump Infantry take the same test.

insaniak wrote:
The rules for Jump Infantry movement say that when Jump Infantry move in difficult terrain, they take the test.
Ergo, models that move as Jump Infantry take the same test.

No the rules for Jump Infantry say that Jump Infantry models take dangerous terrain tests when moving through terrain. Winged Chaos models don't become Jump Infantry models they just move using their rules. No where in the Jump Infantry rules does it simply say "When moving through terrain Jump Infantry make dangerous terrain tests". If it said that, you'd have me by the balls lock, stock and barrel. But it doesn't. I know a lot of people hate it when Stelek is right, even I do most of the time. But just because he is right here doesn't mean you should hop to the other side because the unpopular guy is on the right one.

Typeline wrote: ...they just move using their rules.

Right. So when moving, so far as the rules are concerned, they are Jump Infantry models.

They follow all of the movement rules for Jump Infantry. They have to, because otherwise, they're not moving as Jump Infantry.



Edit: Meanwhile, if I were inclined to take anonymous internet comments personally, I'd probably be offended by the suggestion that I'm immature enough to only be arguing because it's Stelek on the other side. If Yakface had made the same argument, I'd be just as quick to question it. Not because of who he is, but because this is a forum for rules discussion, and in my opinion he is wrong.

Gee, I provided the rules quote and everything else needed to make an argument.

You said "because you say so isn't making it that way", patted yourself on the back, and walked.

Why should I do anything but ignore you? Righto.

Let me see if I can understand the argument...

The FAQ says it "Moves like Jump Infantry"

So now we need to see what that means. We have to answer the question. "What are the rules that tell us how Jump Infantry move?"

So I go to p.52 (Jump Infantry) and look under the Movement section to see how JI move. (Realizing that it lists the difference between JI and Infantry.)
I find a list of 9 things differentiating them from regular infantry:
1)Move up to 12" in the Move phase.
2)This is optional.
3)Can ignore terrain and obstacles.
4)If start/stop in terrain, must take a DT test.
5)May not end on models, impassable terrain.
6)may enter via Deep Strike
7)Fall back 3d6"
8)Move over terrain, but take DT if land on terrain.
9)Cannot end on models/impassable.

All of these are different sentences from the Movement Section under Jump Infantry.
From what I can tell, you are asserting that only 1) and 3) actually 'count' as movement rules.

I think I understand your assertion, I just am not sure why you picked only 1) and 3).

insaniak wrote:

Right. So when moving, so far as the rules are concerned, they are Jump Infantry models.

They follow all of the movement rules for Jump Infantry. They have to, because otherwise, they're not moving as Jump Infantry.

You must not own the CSM Codex. Here is the entire Wing Entry

Codex:Chaos Space Marines wrote:
Wings
Wings enable the wearer to sweep effortlessly across the battlefield and glide over short distances. Wings allow the flyer to travel incredibly quickly, passing over obstructions and swiftly racing into close combat. Models equipped with wings move in the same way as Jump Infantry, as described in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook. In addition, models that have wings can be dropped from low-flying gunships. They can be kept in reserve and arrive using the Deep Strike rules (see the Mission Special Rules section of the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook).

That is page 85 on the right hand side about mid page (Above the picture of the grenades, combi weapons, bolt pistol and (ironically enough) some wings.

Here are the rules from the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook concerning Jump Infantry. This is the part your arguing for. And it's page 52 the left hand side in case you need to go borrow your neighbors on this one. It has the header movement on it.

Warhammer 40,000 rulebook wrote:
Movement
Jump infantry can use their jump packs (or equivalent) and move up to 12" in the Movement phase. This is optional if they wish. When using jump packs, they can move over all other models and all terrain freely. However, if a moving jump infantry model begins or ends its move in difficult terrain, it must take a dangerous terrain test. Jump infantry models may not end their move on top of other models or impassable terrain, except that they can end their move on top of impassable terrain if it is actually possible to place the models on top of it. If they do that, however, they treat the impassable terrain as dangerous terrain. All jump infantry units may enter the battle by 'deep strike', as explained on page 95.

Now I know your not really going to read this or go open your rules book so let me show you these quotes again and pay close attention this time. Here is the Codex: Chaos Space Marines quote again, with a little something underlined.

Codex:Chaos Space Marines wrote:
Wings
Wings enable the wearer to sweep effortlessly across the battlefield and glide over short distances. Wings allow the flyer to travel incredibly quickly, passing over obstructions and swiftly racing into close combat. Models equipped with wings move in the same way as Jump Infantry, as described in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook. In addition, models that have wings can be dropped from low-flying gunships. They can be kept in reserve and arrive using the Deep Strike rules (see the Mission Special Rules section of the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook).

Ok given that lets go check out those rules.

Warhammer 40,000 rulebook wrote:
Movement
Jump infantry can use their jump packs (or equivalent) and move up to 12" in the Movement phase. This is optional if they wish. When using jump packs, they can move over all other models and all terrain freely. However, if a moving jump infantry model begins or ends its move in difficult terrain, it must take a dangerous terrain test. Jump infantry models may not end their move on top of other models or impassable terrain, except that they can end their move on top of impassable terrain if it is actually possible to place the models on top of it. If they do that, however, they treat the impassable terrain as dangerous terrain. All jump infantry units may enter the battle by 'deep strike', as explained on page 95.

Now I know you still have a doubt in your mind, I guess. So here is the Jump Pack upgrade Choas has access to. This is from Codex: Chaos Space Marines again

Codex: Chaos Space Marines wrote:
Jump Pack
Jump packs contain jets or turbines that can lift even heavy power armour from the ground. A warrior equipped with a jump pack can make a great bounding leaps across the battlefield. A jump pack allows the wearer to travel incredibly quickly, passing over obstructions and racing swiftly into close combat

Models equipped with jump packs are Jump Infantry, as described in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook.

In addition, models that are wearing jump packs can be dropped from low-flying gunships, using their jump packs to swoop down onto the battlefield. To represent this they can be kept in reserve and arrive using the Deep Strike rules (see the Mission Special Rules section of the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook).

Now something there is a little odd. It's not exactly the same as the Wings entry lets go grab that entry again to have a quick reference for ourselves. This time I'll add a little emphasis.

Codex:Chaos Space Marines wrote:
Wings
Wings enable the wearer to sweep effortlessly across the battlefield and glide over short distances. Wings allow the flyer to travel incredibly quickly, passing over obstructions and swiftly racing into close combat. Models equipped with wings move in the same way as Jump Infantry, as described in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook. In addition, models that have wings can be dropped from low-flying gunships. They can be kept in reserve and arrive using the Deep Strike rules (see the Mission Special Rules section of the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook).

You might be thinking "That is the same part as last time! Yeah I know, funny huh? Here is where it is different from the Jump Packs entry. I'll add some emphasis here too. Just to show that they are two distinct things and do different things.

Codex: Chaos Space Marines wrote:
Jump Pack
Jump packs contain jets or turbines that can lift even heavy power armour from the ground. A warrior equipped with a jump pack can make a great bounding leaps across the battlefield. A jump pack allows the wearer to travel incredibly quickly, passing over obstructions and racing swiftly into close combat

Models equipped with jump packs are Jump Infantry, as described in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook.

In addition, models that are wearing jump packs can be dropped from low-flying gunships, using their jump packs to swoop down onto the battlefield. To represent this they can be kept in reserve and arrive using the Deep Strike rules (see the Mission Special Rules section of the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook).

And there you have it the models that actually have Jump Packs are Jump Infantry and will be taking dangerous terrain test when they begin or end a move in terrain. But models that have wings won't because they aren't jump infantry they just move like them and when you move like jump infantry you take dangerous terrain tests if your a jump infantry model. But those models with wings, however, are not jump infantry models. They are infantry models that move like jump infantry. Here is that Jump infantry entry one last time to show you again what you need to be reading.

Warhammer 40,000 rulebook wrote:
Movement
Jump infantry can use their jump packs (or equivalent) and move up to 12" in the Movement phase. This is optional if they wish. When using jump packs, they can move over all other models and all terrain freely. However, if a moving jump infantry model begins or ends its move in difficult terrain, it must take a dangerous terrain test. Jump infantry models may not end their move on top of other models or impassable terrain, except that they can end their move on top of impassable terrain if it is actually possible to place the models on top of it. If they do that, however, they treat the impassable terrain as dangerous terrain. All jump infantry units may enter the battle by 'deep strike', as explained on page 95.

Now for an added bonus here is a column directly next to the Jump infantry movement section that also helps support my argument. Remember it's on page 52 of the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook. If you've got the fantasy one, that's the wrong one. Go get the one with guns on it. This entry is in a big gray box to the right of the movement section.

Warhammer 40,000 rulebook wrote:
Different Unit Types
So far the rules have just dealt with troops that move around on foot - infantry. This section covers different unit types, and these not only add new tactical elements to your games, but also more complexity to the rules. These unit types have different rules for the way they move, how terrain affects them, how far they can assault, and so on. You will find that Codexes often add even more changes and exceptions for specific models. In any given situation during a battle, if the Codex doesn't say any different, follow the rules for the appropriate unit type, and if those rules don't say anything different, follow the basic rules for infantry.

If you're just starting out, you may find it easier to use just infantry units in your first game or two, while you get used to the basic rules. On the other hand, if you do want to jump straight in, we suggest that you just read those unit type rules that apply to models in your collection

Now that that is out in the open lets give it another good read through? Notice something? I did, let me show you.

Warhammer 40,000 rulebook wrote:
Different Unit Types
So far the rules have just dealt with troops that move around on foot - infantry. This section covers different unit types, and these not only add new tactical elements to your games, but also more complexity to the rules. These unit types have different rules for the way they move, how terrain affects them, how far they can assault, and so on. You will find that Codexes often add even more changes and exceptions for specific models. In any given situation during a battle, if the Codex doesn't say any different, follow the rules for the appropriate unit type, and if those rules don't say anything different, follow the basic rules for infantry.

If you're just starting out, you may find it easier to use just infantry units in your first game or two, while you get used to the basic rules. On the other hand, if you do want to jump straight in, we suggest that you just read those unit type rules that apply to models in your collection

I'm really not making an argument here. You see in this post I'm stating facts and showing them to you. So there you have it Insaniak.