Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

And if you were to read this thread you would have noticed I said only the Assault Squad sergeant has a 'pair of lightning claws' as an option and yet you kept on going and going, without even reading the codex. The only person dragging this off topic is you since you can't be bothered to either read the posts in this thread or the codex.

Ghaz,

Are you intentionally being an obtuse jackass? You told me not to post without reading the codex (when I obviously had) despite the fact that I was correct with regard to the fact that "Pair of Lightning Claws" exists as an option, which undermines the position that multiples of a single list item can be taken. Admitting that I was (am) working off of memory and my citation may be incorrect was apparently taken by you as an opportunity to admonish me further. Yet somehow this is my fault? Are you completely unable to approach matters in a congenial and cordial manner? You certainly wouldn't talk to someone like this in real life (not for very long anyway), so what makes you think it's acceptable in this thread?

Brice

i wonder if that "thunder hammer or pair of lightning claws" entry for the assault squad sergeant is a typo? it seems a bit odd that he is the only one with that option in the entire army, not even the chapter master has that option.

I honestly think it may have more to do with the fact that one of the Mk1 Veteran models comes with a pair of lighning claws than anything else. There's even a picture of him as a White Scar in the codex.

Brice

BBeale wrote:Ghaz,

Are you intentionally being an obtuse jackass? You told me not to post without reading the codex (when I obviously had) despite the fact that I was correct with regard to the fact that "Pair of Lightning Claws" exists as an option, which undermines the position that multiples of a single list item can be taken. Admitting that I was (am) working off of memory and my citation may be incorrect was apparently taken by you as an opportunity to admonish me further. Yet somehow this is my fault? Are you completely unable to approach matters in a congenial and cordial manner? You certainly wouldn't talk to someone like this in real life (not for very long anyway), so what makes you think it's acceptable in this thread?

Brice

Look who's being the obtuse jackass. It exists in ONE entry, which isn't any of the ones you said it was in. One single entry versus multiple entries does not 'undermine' anybody's argument. As for 'working off of memory', we told you multiple times what the codex said yet you continued to ignore what was said. If you were to stop and actually read what somebody said instead of continuing to ignore everone then maybe you wouldn't have been treated the way you've been treating us. And yes, if I had to put up with somebody who constantly ignored what I'm saying then that is the manner in which he deserves to be treated. It's not acceptable for you to keep on ignoring the others in this thread when they keep on telling you what the codex says and you keep on saying "well, I think it says something else but I don't have the book to check".

If you want people to treat you better, maybe you should do the same and pay attention to what they say for a change.

Ghaz,

First, don't assume that you're being ignored or that I'm not listening you. Both of our posts about the location of the entry, yours stating where the entry was and mine stating where I thought it was, were about a minute and a half apart. I'm sure you never stopped to think that I was drafting my response when you were posting. Hence, I did not see it. It's not all about you. Before you tell somone that they're not reading the thread maybe you should bother to consider other options.

Second, the fact that it exists as an option in one entry, and not in others, is highly dispositive on this issue. If the rule meant that multiples of the same weapon could be chosen, it would have been written like the assault squad sergeant's entry, which clearly indicates that a "Pair of Lightning Claws" can be taken. Instead, it was not.

Brice

And yet again, you ignored multiple posts over several hours. There is no excuse for that.

Secondly, one single entry does not suddenly make your argument valid. If anything, it makes that one entry suspect instead of validating your position. Or do you really believe that only an Assault Marine sergeant can get twin lightning claws while the Chapter Master can not?

Come on Ghaz, take a step back for a second. You have one entry where the option is presented in a clear and unabiguous way. By your logic, every other sergeant entry in the codex was drafted incorrectly, and we have to assume that multiples of listed options can be taken. By my logic, every other sergeant entry is correct without assumption, and the assault sergeant entry gives a specific assaulty-type benefit only to him.

I'm not sure about the Chapter Master wording off the top of my head, but it wouldn't surprise me if that was the case simply by virtue of the options in the model kit.

Brice

It just means the Assault Sergeant can take three Lightning Claws.

Replace bolt pistol with Lightning Claw.
Replace chainsword with Pair of Lightning Claws.

**edit: deleted rubbish about replacing neither weapon as Ghaz has pointed out the correct reading of p.128 in the 'slowed loophole' thread and Nurglitch even spells it out for the slow kids (like me) here.

If they want to base their army build on "clever interpretations of the codex", I say just let them.

Then laugh heartily when their chopped up models get faq'd out of existence in some years when GW gets around to it, and local tournament bosses tell them to stuff it in the meantime. I definitely will.

Interestingly, I've already been through this arguement when 5th edition GBB came out and this option was arguably allowed in the older Marine codex.

A few SM players in our group had a panic attack when they saw the new rules about power-fists and weapon combos not giving the extra attack, and argued that they could just pay the extra points and take a second power fist since the new 5th edition rules "say you need one".

They needed to be told, some not-so-politely, that each entry can only be taken one time, and that there were a few special models that had double-fists inherent.

Also interestingly, these players are the same archtype that can turn a 2 hour game into a 5 hour game easily by arguing every little exploit related to cover and LOS or mixing up 4th and 5th edition rules arguements...and generally lose badly regardless.

If your strategies rely on creative interpretation of the rules, you will lose 9 out of 10 times. Focus instead on coordinating the force size you pick, and you'll do a whole lot better. The answer almost never lies in "making a better sergeant or captain build" or "shuffling models in and out of cover that much more exactly", but in actually trying out good strategies and building an army to carry it out.

... So many people like to go back or forth over this but its simple english ... one thing replaces another, some things take come in pairs so replace 2 things ... which is why it says "and/or" ...

...I'm getting board of the SM player i know trying to get me to let him play with Sergent with a pair of lightning claws and a storm shield he hasn't got 3 arms, dam it!

Incidentally, my one of my assault sergeants is modelled with two power fists; the pointing one from the assault sprue and a debased left arm PF from the SW sprue. He was done up in 4th ed. days, of course, when that extra attack was there, and I made sure to model one guy with two pistols just to wizzywig. I've never tried to pay for an extra PF attack since it was taken from me, though. Not even close to worth it.

From the rulebook (right at the end of the Assault Phase section): "Only a second power-fist, thunder hammer or lightning claw can confer a bonus attack..."

So a model can use any combination from the armoury so long as they have the hands to carry it. Obviously if a marine has a thunder hammer he cannot use any other ccw he is carrying as his hands are full with the hammer. Next time around he may use a different ccw he's carrying but not while he's using his hammer.

What I noticed is that there are redundant options which are obviously confusing. There's no need to list paired lightning claws as an option because they are already available under the single claw listing.

On page 128, the word 'neither' is redundant because the sentence already includes the word 'may' which means that any replacement is optional to begin with.

Two stormbolters would be interesting to see.

Tri wrote:... So many people like to go back or forth over this but its simple english ... one thing replaces another, some things take come in pairs so replace 2 things ... which is why it says "and/or" ...

...I'm getting board of the SM player i know trying to get me to let him play with Sergent with a pair of lightning claws and a storm shield he hasn't got 3 arms, dam it!

Just let him, one of those lightning claws is a waste of points with the stormshield there, although you should be aware that some units such as the command squad can actually take the storm shield without using any hands for it, it's just like a wargear purchase.

cadbren wrote:Obviously if a marine has a thunder hammer he cannot use any other ccw he is carrying as his hands are full with the hammer.

Thunder hammers are no more 2 handed than a power fist, matter of fact, the entry for them says they use the power fist rules, so if you are going to call a thunder hammer 2 handed then so is the fist, and I will expect you to model your sergeants with 2 handed power fists so that you can see how rediculous it is.

bbeale wrote:Come on Ghaz, take a step back for a second. You have one entry where the option is presented in a clear and unabiguous way. By your logic, every other sergeant entry in the codex was drafted incorrectly, and we have to assume that multiples of listed options can be taken. By my logic, every other sergeant entry is correct without assumption, and the assault sergeant entry gives a specific assaulty-type benefit only to him.

Yes, but by your logic, GW intentially drafted the codex such that german speaking players would only be able to give thier command squads dual lightning claws while english speaking players could only give them to assault squad sergeants. Do you honestly believe this is correct?


From: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/218148.page

1hadhq wrote:@Smashotron:

The command-squad is exactly the same as in my german codex

One exception: after -powerfist we get -pair of lighning claws followed by -thunderhammer.

Don't know why we have one entry more than you. :S

Drunkspleen wrote:

Tri wrote:... So many people like to go back or forth over this but its simple english ... one thing replaces another, some things take come in pairs so replace 2 things ... which is why it says "and/or" ...

...I'm getting board of the SM player i know trying to get me to let him play with Sergent with a pair of lightning claws and a storm shield he hasn't got 3 arms, dam it!

Just let him, one of those lightning claws is a waste of points with the stormshield there, although you should be aware that some units such as the command squad can actually take the storm shield without using any hands for it, it's just like a wargear purchase.

No chance he's not getting weapons he shouldn't have, i know how he's going to use it 3+ inv for shooting x2 LC in CC ... hadn't spoted the Storm shield a wargear i'll have to look for it (i may have just ignored thinking it was another combat shield)...

Tri wrote:No chance he's not getting weapons he shouldn't have, i know how he's going to use it 3+ inv for shooting x2 LC in CC ... hadn't spoted the Storm shield a wargear i'll have to look for it (i may have just ignored thinking it was another combat shield)...

You can't turn the storm shield off, a unit equipped with one (that is, that has purchased one) CANNOT EVER get the bonus attack for two close combat weapons.

well from all the info ive gathered you can take 2 powerfists as long as you pay the price.

Deathmachine wrote:well from all the info ive gathered you can take 2 powerfists as long as you pay the price.

Yes, they gave assault sergeants wild new abilities in the 5th edition codex that they've never had before. Please take them.

/sarcasm

*mumbles something about smurf-playing noobs, walks off*

post removed for profanity and blatant flaming


--yakface

@Mod's

Please Close

@ Polecatez

Is it more likely to believe (exclusive of the written evidence which allows it, this is just a common sense statement) that they allowed Assault marine sergeants to take 2 power fists?

or that they've limited lightning claws to JUST assault marine sergeants and terminators, not characters in term armor but assault terminators. So now my "word is god in my own chapter" chapter master can't take lightning claws. Shrike is the only character in the SM Codex that can now take a pair of lightning claws according to your logic.

Oh, and was it just a coincidence that lightning claws went down to just 15 points for 1? odd how that magically makes them 30 points for a pair. But enough, hopefully the mods close this thread after this post.

Hulksmash wrote:Is it more likely to believe (exclusive of the written evidence which allows it, this is just a common sense statement) that they allowed Assault marine sergeants to take 2 power fists?

Nope, never have, never will. I've had this same arguement IRL with the previous codex when they released 5th edition. The wording was "similarly ambiguous" in the older codex as well, but nevertheless, it is exclusionary like every other rule in WH40k. They don't allow you to pick the same entry multiple times, very easy, unless it states you may select multiple of the same entry. Also, I personally know 3 guys that have tried this arguement in real life, I know their maturity levels and personality, as well as their win/loss records in our gaming group. They beat their heads against the wall constantly (losing badly) and try every rules trick they can think of to win, not realizing playing hero builder using creative interpretations of the rules and creative interpretation of English syntax is not the way to victory in this game. They're also some of the most frustrating to play, as 2 hour games really do turn into 5 hour brawls where they try to preserve every expensive model they can from getting wasted in 5 seconds.

If I can do my part to prevent this silliness from infecting just one other game group, I'll have done my good deed for my lifetime and will be assured a place in wargaming Valhalla when a Mac truck runs over my fat ass on the way to go buy more Chaos Black.

or that they've limited lightning claws to JUST assault marine sergeants and terminators, not characters in term armor but assault terminators. So now my "word is god in my own chapter" chapter master can't take lightning claws. Shrike is the only character in the SM Codex that can now take a pair of lightning claws according to your logic.

Absolutely not, please read your codex more carefully. Your DIY Chapter Master in Termie armor is more than allowed to take a pair of lightning claws for a total of (XX) points, as are your DIY Space Marine Captains in Termie armor. In regular power armor they are, unfortunately, limited to using a single claw. In all cases where pairs of anything are allowed, it is quite well spelled out in the appropriate codex entry. There are no "missing entries" or hidden Easter egg tricks to be found, though it was mentioned there was a mistranslation in the German codex.

Oh, and was it just a coincidence that lightning claws went down to just 15 points for 1? odd how that magically makes them 30 points for a pair. But enough, hopefully the mods close this thread after this post.

I'm not sure of any "newer" price, but yes, claws and pairs of claws are both the exact same price in the Chaos codex, I think they similarly updated/tweaked the cost in the new SM codex so they won't be exactly 2 for 2 in cases where this is allowed...see the chapter master/captain entries for further details. But as noted above, taking a "pair of anything" is well spelled out in the codex entries where it is allowed.

THANK YOU Hulksmash

It is also worth pointing out, that in addition to Chapter Masters and Captains in termie armor explicitly being given the ability to take 2 lightning claws, they may also take a pair of Thunder Hammers.

I have a hard time with any argument that is based upon inconsistency in the codex entries. There are three entries that specifically allow for multiples of the same item to be taken (assault squad veterans, chapter masters, and captains). None of the other entries specifically allow for it. You can't assume that the other entries are incorrect or lacking, and you can't assume that these 3 entries are just inconsistently drafted.

Brice

Deathmachine wrote:post removed for profanity and blatant flaming


--yakface

You asked if you could, you were given an answer, examples, and reasoning for the answer. What more of a "contribution" do you want? Someone to just agree that you can do it?

Basically, you can pick each line item on the codex entry one time. Full stop.

If you are allowed "pairs" of anything, it is in the respective codex entry spelled out exclusively, either by saying "pair" or by giving the same item in two entries. There are no "new" hidden Easter eggs or ability to gain extraordinary amounts of gear sneaked into the 5th edition SM codex. Common sense is always open to interpretation, so we won't try to push that point.

If you don't like the answer, then pick someone else's. It won't make it any more correct.

You're not the one that has to run tournaments around here with people constantly coming up with silly stuff on their tournament lists and saying "Someone on the interwebz said I could!" Believe me sir, I know "noobz". I'm much nicer to them in real life, but they still don't get an inch or a mile when I'm running things. Battletech is your friend if you like configuring and tweaking, no problems there.

post removed for profanity and blatant flaming


--yakface

you can get 2 power fists, although why you would want to pay 25 points for an extra attack is beyond me, but hey if you want to do it go for it. Personally Id rather have a relic blade for 15 points and a bolt pistol that way you get an extra attack and you have a str 6 power weapon that swings at init.

good point da gob smaka but im making this squad for suicide missions on tanks and such. and i thought you could take 2 PF but some people say no you cant.

Deathmachine wrote:good point da gob smaka but im making this squad for suicide missions on tanks and such. and i thought you could take 2 PF but some people say no you cant.

Thunder hammer, plasma pistol, melta-bombs.

With just a PF, chances are you won't get a vehicle if it moves out of the way, they'll see you coming. You also won't get to assault the second you drop in.

With the pistol (or pistols on the rest of the squad), you can deep strike on the ass-end of most vehicles and pop it (10 or 11 rear armor). If it sticks around then you can charge with the hammer and get the most bang for a lot of points. If the vehicle decides to try to run you over, melta-bomb the rear armor for an almost guaranteed pen hit.

Also, if the vehicle turns to face you the turn after you drop in, use the 12" jump move to get to its rear, fire again, then hammer or melta-bomb it.

For fewer points than all that though, you could get a small squad of scouts mounted in land speeder storm. Kit the sergeant with a combi-melta, multi-melta on storm, and missile launcher on another member. Deep strike, jump out, and shoot something very dead, all in the same turn...and if they live, you now also have a scoring unit ready to grab an objective.

da gob smaka wrote:you can get 2 power fists, although why you would want to pay 25 points for an extra attack is beyond me, but hey if you want to do it go for it. Personally Id rather have a relic blade for 15 points and a bolt pistol that way you get an extra attack and you have a str 6 power weapon that swings at init.

Relic Blade is a 2hander and as such cannot be used with another close combat weapon to get a bonus attack.

@Polecatez

Sorry but your wrong. RAW from pg. 128 Section 7 clearly states how it works. You can argue till the cows come home one way or the other. Claim exclusivity(sp?) is the way the game is played.

No where in the rule book does it say that is the way the game should be played. At least that i've read. If you can point this out to me then i'll happily take your side in the arguement.

But since it doesn't say that, and the entry clearly states "Where an option states that youmay exchange one weapon 'and/or' another, you may replace either, neither, or both provided you pay the points" I'm going to have to stick with your wrong.

Oh, and as for pairs of lightning claws no other entry has the pair. The only reason that they break up Terminator weaponry is because of the weapons already equipped have to be subtracted from the normal total. Hence 10 point upgrade on the pf since you already have a power weapon or the cheaper weapons on the stormbolter hand because of the weapon. They could lump the non-termy weapons all together since the basic equipment of non-termy gear is free so upgrades cost the normal amount.

As for your group, it's a small demographic and not everyone who makes a reasonable arguement is one of "those" guys. But you might also want to consider that you could be wrong and that as bad a players as they are they might be right. Even a blind squirel finds an acorn now and then

New editions mean new games. As you so clearly stated your beliefs are based on bringing 4th edition ideas into 5th. 5th is a different game. Start to get used to the idea that the game scene is changing and you'll have more fun and less arguements.