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Made in us
Apprehensive Inquisitorial Apprentice





terra

Tri wrote:Why must every one spam 4 weapons? look at the squad this way, you can take 5-10 men and 1-4 heavy weapons ... so why not take 5 men and only 1 heavy weapon?It lets you take advantage of the signum (BS5) and its cheaper then getting a 10 man tac squad for the gun...

I never said I was spamming 4 plasma cannons. I was actually using them in a squad with 2 lascannons. So i can kill the armoured troops, and then the tank.


Orkeosaurus wrote:I know, British is a terrible language.

 
   
Made in gb
Proud Phantom Titan







? did i say you were? my point was why alway 10 man with 4 heavy weapons ?(any combination)( yes i know you can combat sqaud out 2 units )
   
Made in us
Preacher of the Emperor




Boston, MA

Tri---If I take a Devastator squad, I will always max out the weapons because it is taking up a heavy support slot. All the vehicle equivalents in that slot come with at least three heavy weapons or a an ordnance weapon. If you take an undersized devastator squad, you are essentially wasting a heavy support slot. If you need another fire team, take tactical squad and combat squad it. Or buy a Predator optimized to shoot light infantry or vehicles.
   
Made in gb
Proud Phantom Titan







PanzerLeader wrote:Tri---If I take a Devastator squad, I will always max out the weapons because it is taking up a heavy support slot. All the vehicle equivalents in that slot come with at least three heavy weapons or a an ordnance weapon. If you take an undersized devastator squad, you are essentially wasting a heavy support slot. If you need another fire team, take tactical squad and combat squad it. Or buy a Predator optimized to shoot light infantry or vehicles.

ah different playing styles i guess ... i like to max out the army not just units ...

... only the LR's come with 3 guns as standard (and an epic points cost) all the rest come with 1 gun + upgrades ... you can just bring out a Predator with an AutoCannon
   
Made in us
Preacher of the Emperor




Boston, MA

You can bring a Predator with just an autocannon, but that is a waste of a HS slot, the vehicle rules and the Predator's AV13. Now, if it was a Predator Annihilator with only a turret weapon, I might be sold on it but if all you want is a mobile TL lascannon, you are better off getting a Razorback upgrade for a squad.

Just for reference, I typically run three slots: 1 Predator with Autocannon/Heavy Bolters, 1 Predator with Autocannon/Lascannons, and 1 Whirlwind. I then use four Razorback mounted Tacsquads for the balance of my firepower. As for maxing out the Army, at 1750 points I have one HQ, four Troops, three Heavies, and two Fast Attack with a total of 56 models on the board. I am firm believer that every unit in there has a niche to fill in support of the rest of the army and my heavy support slots are all dedicated to laying down fire in support of another section's movement. For me, taking a short on weapons Devastator squad in larger battle negates their utility. In smaller battles, I would consider taking a 5 man squad with two heavy weapons in lieu of a tank. But burning a HS slot on a small unit short on heavy weapons, with no special weapons alternative like a Tactical squad has, seems foolish. Especially since a minimum sized Devastator squad with just a missile launcher costs 105 points, for which you could have gotten much more firepower and utility out of a Predator or Whirlwind.
   
Made in us
Mindless Spore Mine




Greensboro, MD

would a drop pod really be worth the points? i mean i could see its use being effective in a low points game where there's a lot of open space to save them from assault, or grant enough time for a cc oriented squad to intercept, but keeping in mind that it's a low points game a ten man devestator squad would occupy a large portion of your army. probably better for the enemy to avoid them.

however, in a higher points game its effectiveness is at risk because the enemy has more units to counter where he predicts you'll land the pod. your scout bikers could be intercepted as well, denying not only the locator beacon, but a unit you could very well use as cover, to tie up the closest cc oriented squad, or create some other sort of diversion.

then again, i don't play space marines :-P

Tri wrote:Why must every one spam 4 weapons? look at the squad this way, you can take 5-10 men and 1-4 heavy weapons ... so why not take 5 men and only 1 heavy weapon?It lets you take advantage of the signum (BS5) and its cheaper then getting a 10 man tac squad for the gun...


the down side to this is they won't count as a scoring unit, which is the greatest advantage of having a tactical squad.

 
   
Made in us
Dominar






WintermuteSwarm wrote:would a drop pod really be worth the points? i mean i could see its use being effective in a low points game where there's a lot of open space to save them from assault, or grant enough time for a cc oriented squad to intercept, but keeping in mind that it's a low points game a ten man devestator squad would occupy a large portion of your army. probably better for the enemy to avoid them.


You win the thread.

No, drop pod is unnecessary bloat that you're going to get very limited use out of.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




sourclams:You win the thread.
Well, I guess that wrap this topic up. Yep. all wrapped up. Nothing let to say. Yep.
All little back and forth, a little disagreement, but we have a conclusive winner.
Yep. Got no troops units within 3 inches of any objective on this discussion.
Hmmm, looks like I spent around 35 points too many on a heavy support instead of troops.
Could of had two marines for that.
Yep, uhuh, yep. Shame really. Maybe I could have been a contender. *sigh*
Oh, well. I better get to marching those Multi-Meltas across the field for the win.
Yep, walk'n, so I can fire more. Yep.
:S
   
Made in us
Boom! Leman Russ Commander








Here is how I use Dev squads:

For drop pod assault, you have to bring in half your pods 1st turn. So lets say you take 1-2 Stern GUard squads kitted out with plasmas and flamers. We'll say 2. Unless you are bringing in more pods, thats 1 pod 1st turn, and the 2nd pod whenever....Not too good for a shock and awe kinda of attack.

So..the more pods you bring in, the better. A tactical squad needs 10 guys to have a pod..so at minimum that costs 215 points.
An assault squad comes in at 100 points ( all these pods have locator beacons). This is a basic 5 man squad.

A dev squad costs 145, with a combi meltagun and a lascannon. You can either drop in close to a land raider etc and hit with the melta on 2's, or deploy far away and hit with the las on 2's and drop the empty pod.

So if you bring 2 of those squads, you can decide whether to drop the 2 sternguard, or tactical, or assault or whatever you are bringing the first turn, and then follow up with the empty pods, or whatever combo you want. Remember, the more pods you have = more LOS blocking terrain. Combined with a mech assault force and you can slice and dice your opponents.

I prefer the dev squad to the assault squad because you have more shooting options and flexibility, and 5 man assault squads are not very effective.

Remember too that an effective counter to the drop pod assault is for your opponent to hold everything in reserve...so by having the Hobbs pattern Dev squad, you can drop the empty pods first, have units on the table ready for shooting, and bring in your sternguard or assault marine pods later, when the enemy is on the board.

.Only a fool believes there is such a thing as price gouging. Things have value determined by the creator or merchant. If you don't agree with that value, you are free not to purchase. 
   
Made in us
Dominar






And that's the only situation where it's really useful, you're right on that Hobbs. Even then, though, it's not that many drop pods (assuming we're actually trying for a reasonable point level)

4 pods/140 pts: 1st turn 2, 2nd turn 1, 3rd turn 1 (probably)
5 pods/175 pts: 1st turn 3, 2nd turn 1, 3rd turn 1 (probably)
6 pods/210 pts: 1st turn 3, 2nd turn 1.5, 3rd turn 1.5 (probably)
7 pods/245 pts: 1st turn 4, 2nd turn 1.5, 3rd turn 1.5
(probably)
8 pods/280 pts: 1st turn 4, 2nd turn 2, 3rd turn 2 (probably)

Any number between 4 and 7 gives you 1 pod on the top of turn 3, whereas you need 8 pods to guarantee yourself 2. 4-5 pods is reasonable whereas 8 is just bloat.

4-5 pods can easily be taken by your 2 tacticals, 2 sternguard, and 1 anyting-elses (preferably something that'll actually make use of a drop pod, i.e. not devastators). A Dreadnought, for example, can make good use of a drop pod, but is also perfectly happy deploying on the table and having an empty if necessary. This keeps your drop pods tactically viable as transports without bloating your list too much. I mean, do you really want 1 in every 7 points spent on an AV12 storm bolter? I maintain, giving devastator squads drop pods is a waste of points.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2008/11/29 02:56:45


 
   
Made in us
Dominar






Belphegor wrote:
Oh, well. I better get to marching those Multi-Meltas across the field for the win.
Yep, walk'n, so I can fire more. Yep.
:S


Hey, watch this:

Devastator Squad with 6 wounds and 3 multi-meltas and 3 bolters:
151 pts

Attack Bike Squad with 6 wounds and 3 multi-meltas, 3 twin linked bolters, T4(5), and 12" Move-And-Shoot:
150 pts

   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






on board Terminus Est

The best Dev loadout is 4x HB. Cheap and very effective. For Space Marines an attack bike with a multi-melta is better for tank hunting.

G

ALL HAIL SANGUINIUS! No one can beat my Wu Tang style!

http://greenblowfly.blogspot.com <- My 40k Blog! BA Tactics & Strategies!
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




sourclams: Attack Bike Squad with 6 wounds and 3 multi-meltas, 3 twin linked bolters, T4(5), and 12" Move-And-Shoot:
150 pts
Yeah, I was hoping you were not going to point that out. . .
Still, I maintain 10 marines 4x M-Meltas + 1 Drop-Pod (as in the army) makes great for quick deploy area control/denial
especially with an attached Librarian
it's a swap for a bit more durability to make a decent striking surface of an anvil
<sarcasm>anyhow I need those slots for 3 Vanguard Vet units</sarcasm>
... I wish these were good
and Heavy Bolter option is also great (but NOT in the drop-pod)
the M-Melta is the only load-out I'd run in a Drop, and only specifically for a 1/2 Pod Army.
   
Made in us
Mindless Spore Mine




Greensboro, MD

the M-Melta is the only load-out I'd run in a Drop, and only specifically for a 1/2 Pod Army.


Absolutely, but what happens when the second vindicator in that double lash army takes out the entire devestator squad? You're losing a lot more points than if you went with the attack bikes :-P ... considering you went with your 10 marines, 4x meltas. I'm not saying its an ineffective tactic, I just think its relatively easy to counter unless you're fighting a necron army with a single monolith.

 
   
Made in us
Boom! Leman Russ Commander






sourclams wrote:And that's the only situation where it's really useful, you're right on that Hobbs. Even then, though, it's not that many drop pods (assuming we're actually trying for a reasonable point level)

4 pods/140 pts: 1st turn 2, 2nd turn 1, 3rd turn 1 (probably)
5 pods/175 pts: 1st turn 3, 2nd turn 1, 3rd turn 1 (probably)
6 pods/210 pts: 1st turn 3, 2nd turn 1.5, 3rd turn 1.5 (probably)
7 pods/245 pts: 1st turn 4, 2nd turn 1.5, 3rd turn 1.5
(probably)
8 pods/280 pts: 1st turn 4, 2nd turn 2, 3rd turn 2 (probably)

Any number between 4 and 7 gives you 1 pod on the top of turn 3, whereas you need 8 pods to guarantee yourself 2. 4-5 pods is reasonable whereas 8 is just bloat.

4-5 pods can easily be taken by your 2 tacticals, 2 sternguard, and 1 anyting-elses (preferably something that'll actually make use of a drop pod, i.e. not devastators). A Dreadnought, for example, can make good use of a drop pod, but is also perfectly happy deploying on the table and having an empty if necessary. This keeps your drop pods tactically viable as transports without bloating your list too much. I mean, do you really want 1 in every 7 points spent on an AV12 storm bolter? I maintain, giving devastator squads drop pods is a waste of points.


I fail how to see how you refute what I was saying.

I did forget the Dred option....but if someone drops a dread close to me, it dies right away.

I'm much happier dropping down a multi-use dev squad with a combi-melta, or sticking them far away with the las, then I am with a dread.

.Only a fool believes there is such a thing as price gouging. Things have value determined by the creator or merchant. If you don't agree with that value, you are free not to purchase. 
   
Made in us
Boom! Leman Russ Commander






sourclams wrote:
Belphegor wrote:
Oh, well. I better get to marching those Multi-Meltas across the field for the win.
Yep, walk'n, so I can fire more. Yep.
:S


Hey, watch this:

Devastator Squad with 6 wounds and 3 multi-meltas and 3 bolters:
151 pts

Attack Bike Squad with 6 wounds and 3 multi-meltas, 3 twin linked bolters, T4(5), and 12" Move-And-Shoot:
150 pts



hey watch this....3 krak missiles hit the dev squad. 3 models die. 3 multi meltas shoot back.
3 krak missiles hit the attack bike squad. 3 attack bikes die due to instant death. No shots back.

Thanks for playing.

.Only a fool believes there is such a thing as price gouging. Things have value determined by the creator or merchant. If you don't agree with that value, you are free not to purchase. 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




It's not a lynch-pin, it's part of a whole.
Lash + Vindicator = a whole crapload of points dedicated to taking care of one element.
Example: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/223597.page
   
Made in us
Mindless Spore Mine




Greensboro, MD

275 points isn't that much more considering that they'll move on to murder another unit every turn. It isn't dedicated to taking out one element, just the most pressing, which in this case would be your deepstriking multi-meltas that probably just blew up one of their more important heavy support choices.

But then again, I guess if you're taking the attack bikes as well there aren't many armored double lash armies you can't do significant damage against :-P where'd you get the idea to make a 1,850 point army though?

 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




WintermuteSwarm:
where'd you get the idea to make a 1,850 point army though?
http://www.adepticon.org/09rules/0940Kchamp.html
not that I'm saying it's a championship worthy army.
   
Made in us
Dominar






General Hobbs wrote:
hey watch this....3 krak missiles hit the dev squad. 3 models die. 3 multi meltas shoot back.
3 krak missiles hit the attack bike squad. 3 attack bikes die due to instant death. No shots back.

Thanks for playing.


You mean one dies because of their 3+ cover save? Better find more missiles!
   
Made in us
Dominar






WintermuteSwarm wrote:considering that they'll move on to murder another unit every turn...which in this case would be your deepstriking multi-meltas that probably [will [not]] blow up one of their more important heavy support choices.


I hate being such an assinine rules stickler, but this *is* the tactics forum. Nobody has move-and-shoot Devastators. That means:

Turn 1a: You drop 7" from my Big Heavy Thing.

You stand there.

Turn 1b: I move my Big Heavy Thing 6"

I shoot your Devastators

Big Heavy Thing shoots your Dreadnought/whatever

I assault your Devastators creating a combat bog

Turn 2a: Your devastators are stuck in combat

Your stuff fights my stuff

Turn 2b: Your Devastators are stuck in combat, dead, or barely winning against a cheaper unit. Regardless, they have about 1 multi melta left.

My stuff fights your stuff.

Your devastators consolidate d6"

Turn 3a: Your devastators fire their multi melta at one random target, it statistically does nothing of worth. Performance goes downhill from here.

OR you can deploy from the get-go with missile launchers and kill 3-4 MEQ infantry, 6-8 OEQ infantry, or 1-2 light vehicles every turn.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2008/11/30 14:09:58


 
   
Made in gb
Thunderhawk Pilot Dropping From Orbit





10 man dev squad 4 multi-melta's in a drop pod.

H.B.M.C. wrote:A competative gamer writes a list to win a game.

A casual gamer writes a list to win a game and then pretends he didn't.


Started my Salamanders army


 
   
Made in us
Dominar






Is terrible, yes.
   
Made in us
Boom! Leman Russ Commander






sourclams wrote:
General Hobbs wrote:
hey watch this....3 krak missiles hit the dev squad. 3 models die. 3 multi meltas shoot back.
3 krak missiles hit the attack bike squad. 3 attack bikes die due to instant death. No shots back.

Thanks for playing.


You mean one dies because of their 3+ cover save? Better find more missiles!


If they are using a 3+ cover save, that means they won't be shooting. Which means at the most they will be used to contest an objective. Which means they will get wiped out in close combat during the endgame phase.

.Only a fool believes there is such a thing as price gouging. Things have value determined by the creator or merchant. If you don't agree with that value, you are free not to purchase. 
   
Made in us
Apprehensive Inquisitorial Apprentice





terra

nurglitch is right . scouts overall are good for tele homers because of infultrate, and i would hate to have a pack of devastators behind me. this, when combined with khan can be a killer,as khan lets you flank, so you can bring scout bikers around back, which means more homers, so you can have a load of termies and other deep strikers right behind you, so you can really pown. but if you roll a pack of s for reserve roll ur in trouble, as this tactic depends on how you roll 4 reseves.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2008/11/30 17:31:37



Orkeosaurus wrote:I know, British is a terrible language.

 
   
Made in us
Dominar






General Hobbs wrote:

If they are using a 3+ cover save, that means they won't be shooting. Which means at the most they will be used to contest an objective. Which means they will get wiped out in close combat during the endgame phase.


So being unable to shoot after moving is a bad thing?

Right?
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




sourclams: Turn 1a: You drop 7" from my Big Heavy Thing.
no that would be a poor use of the unit, it's NOT a unit to deepstrike in an assassinate a tank.
the Drop Pod is to give board flexibility for deployment for a unit that NOT within 12" of the enemy
Your not giving a unit to speed bump, your taking space by making making a pain to go into

but if your the type to drop unit's unsupported within a one turn strike of multiple units then definitely don't use it
because it'll die

So I'll just agree that if you purposefully setup bad deploy that is against the function of the squad that unit will not work.
Or in an army that is under 1500 points, so that unit would eat into the body of the force.
With the above criteria filled: 10 man dev squads in a drop pod is a bad unit
   
Made in us
Dominar






Give me a scenario where devastators with multimeltas are a better investment than an equal number of points' worth of attack bikes, or deployed devastators with suitable 36"- 48" weaponry.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2008/11/30 18:00:32


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




PM or Post an all-rounders list.
I'll draw out a diagram with a all-rounders list.
We'll be able to discus this further with some visuals.
It's a bit to abstract of a discussion right now to get anywhere.

how does 1,750 sound?
   
Made in us
Apprehensive Inquisitorial Apprentice





terra

the problem is, you will only kill 1 tank per turn, and plus if you are within in 12 of the tank you are toast, and plus attack bikes are better for multimeltas.


Orkeosaurus wrote:I know, British is a terrible language.

 
   
 
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