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I am going to disagree here and say that the unit doesn't have FNP and thus isn't covered under the caveat of a unit not giving the upgrade. It is an individual model that gives it to his unit. The character is a part of that unit and is affected.

If Telion snipes out the painboy, the unit loses FNP meaning it isn't an ability inherent to the unit. Therefore the unit is not conferring the ability.

edit: I will just either roll with my opponent or let them choose how it goes until it is faqed because I think both arguments have merit.

That is definatly a very interesting point.

There's a big difference between joining a unit with a painboy or a narthecium with a boss or Captain, and say, a Chaplain joining a bunch of Death Company Marines.

After rethinking and reading this, I'm inclined to say that the +1 WS from the Waaaag banner is given to the IC.

But I still agree that the FNP doesn't work for the IC.

I will need to read the +1WS since it is a piece of wargear and not a special rule.

But reading this I have to agree that the warboss DOES NOT get FNP

Just one little thing... the painboy does not join the unit, he is already part of it. Only the boss Joins it.

For you fluff people:
Da boss wouldn't want some git wurking on 'ez head like he's some weedy grot

For you people who think in real life the doc would help:
In real life there are no orkz

Somnicide wrote:I am going to disagree here and say that the unit doesn't have FNP and thus isn't covered under the caveat of a unit not giving the upgrade. It is an individual model that gives it to his unit. The character is a part of that unit and is affected.

If Telion snipes out the painboy, the unit loses FNP meaning it isn't an ability inherent to the unit. Therefore the unit is not conferring the ability.

edit: I will just either roll with my opponent or let them choose how it goes until it is faqed because I think both arguments have merit.

Ok, so the unit doesn't have it, but an individual model gives it to them?

The unit either has it or it doesn't.

Where it comes from is irrelevant, really. This is in complete accordance with the rules. FNP is not granted from an IC to a unit or from a unit to an IC unless specifically stated otherwise. The Pain Boy specifically gives the FNP to the unit. This is allowed for by the specific wording of the Pain Boy's rules. There is no further wording of the Pain Boy's rules that additionally extends that coverage to any IC that has joined the unit.

If the intent was to have this FNP ability extend to ICs joined to that unit, it would have been simple to word the rule as the Pain Boy grants FNP to "the unit and any ICs attached to that unit." This would have covered all bases and allowed for the prohibitions present in the BRB.

"A Mob including a Waaagh banner has +1 WS"

As Mob and Unit are terms used completely interchangeably in the Ork codex, I would assume that the circumstances are the same. However +1 WS is not a USR, but I am left to wonder why the specific rules of a model in a codex are overruled by General primary rulebook conditions just because FNP is a USR.

P1 A painboy confers feel no pain onto his unit
P2 A warboss joined to the unit is part of the unit
C1 A painboy confers feel no pain onto a warboss in his unit

And the argument is that he does not, because feel no pain is a USR?

Regardless of the outcome of this discussion, it is thankfully rare that Warbosses actually take FNP in practice, so it's likely to not come up much. In practice it has been used to catch the first krak missile (or equivalent Str 8 AP3-6) shot fired at the unit to avoid losing an entire nob, and any non-fist non power weapon closecombat attacks that manage to get past T6 (on a bike).

So how do you people that don't think an IC gets FNP from a painboy treat Mad Dok Grotsnik?

His unit is himself so I guess he can never confer FNP on anyone else by your reading?

Moz, I understand what you are saying, but the rules state that a special ability is not passed on to the IC unless it is specifically granted. Since the Painboy does not specifically grant the IC the USR Feel No Pain, it is not granted.

You are right that it makes little difference. The Warboss uses his T6 and cover save a lot more than the Feel No Pain save.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Moz wrote:

And the argument is that he does not, because feel no pain is a USR?

Actually, that is exactly the argument.

Feel No Pain, as it pertains to the Codex: Orks, only has one set of rules. Those rules appear in the BRB under the section for the Universal Special Rules.

You see, it doesn't matter if the Warboss is "part" of the unit; he is, by rule, "joined" to the unit. The Pain Boy is a unit upgrade that confers FNP on the unit. A unit's FNP is not conferred onto joined IC's.

As I said in my previous post, if the intent was to have joined IC's benefit from the FNP, the Pain Boy's wording could easily have been changed to include joined IC's.

However, the wording was not done in such a manner.

And, still, I really don't understand the argument that the unit doesn't have FNP, but they get it from a unit upgrade. I repeat; either the unit has Feel No Pain, or it doesn't.

I mean, I know that such comparisons are always suspect, but if I don't have $10, but then a friend gives me $10, do I have $10 or not?

Webbe wrote:So how do you people that don't think an IC gets FNP from a painboy treat Mad Dok Grotsnik?

His unit is himself so I guess he can never confer FNP on anyone else by your reading?

Does not Grotsnik have a specific rule that states he confers it onto a unit he joins?

The BRB states that there is no IC to unit or unit to IC transfer of the USR unless specifically allowed by the rules for the unit/IC in question. If Mr. Grotsnik has rules that state he confers the ability, then this is an exception allowed for by the rules.

Saldiven wrote:

And, still, I really don't understand the argument that the unit doesn't have FNP, but they get it from a unit upgrade. I repeat; either the unit has Feel No Pain, or it doesn't.

I mean, I know that such comparisons are always suspect, but if I don't have $10, but then a friend gives me $10, do I have $10 or not?

So would the unit still have feel no pain per your understanding if the Painboy is removed from play? Just trying to see where this is going.

IMHO, I believe the term found in the BRB in the IC section "Unless specified in the rule itself...the unit's special rules are not conferred upon the character, and the character's special rules are not conferred upon the unit."

is being misunderstood by the vast majority.

Questions you need to ask:

1) Does the rule ever say anywhere in the rule *has* to include the term IC in it for it to include ICs or another unit? Or does it say "unless specified in the rule itself"? What does that mean?

2) Is an IC a unit?

3) Does the term "confer to the unit" or anything similar include ICs? and if not, why?

Truly this discussion stems from the vast majority of readers that the words "Independent Character" now *has* to be in every rule for it to work with ICs

4) Does the Chaplains special rule work for other ICs in his unit? like fearless and re-roll misses? (example, lets say you have a captain, chaplain, and a unit of marines. The chaplain confers fearless to the unit he is with [note it doesn't include IC in the rule, just the squad he is with] so everyone has fearless EXCEPT the captain, so by going by the BRB, the unit now no longer has fearless, is this how you [being the proverbial you] think this should work?)

-----Going by this logic it doesn't.

Simply put: This rule was made for units/mobs/whatever that had its own *innate* ability/special rule (like Grotesques, Death company, etc..) *Not* for special rules that specify they are supposed to work for the *unit* he is with.

Honestly where this is going, it will apply to *ALOT* more than most posters realize.

something to ponder

Honestly, I'm not sure. I'd have to go back and re-read the rules how the Pain Boy's rules in entirety are written.

But to use my suspect analogy from above:

If I don't have $10 bucks, and my friend gives me $10, do I still have $10 if my friend moves to Zimbabwe?

(See, analogies are always suspect.)

padixon wrote:IMHO, I believe the term found in the BRB in the IC section "Unless specified in the rule itself...the unit's special rules are not conferred upon the character, and the character's special rules are not conferred upon the unit."

is being misunderstood by the vast majority.

Questions you need to ask:

1) Does the rule ever say anywhere in the rule *has* to include the term IC in it for it to include ICs or another unit? Or does it say "unless specified in the rule itself"? What does that mean?

Um...it means that if a unit has one of the specified USRs that cannot be transferred to a joined IC, then the IC in question gains no benefit from that ability unless something in the rules specifically over-rides this prohibition. Honestly, I don't see the confusion, other than some people want their Warboss to have FNP, regardless of what the rules say on the matter.

2) Is an IC a unit?

By the rules, an IC is a unit that has specific rules that govern its behavior on the tabletop.

3) Does the term "confer to the unit" or anything similar include ICs? and if not, why?

It will depend on the situation. If the ability being conferred onto a unit is one that is defined as being one of the USR's that specifically does not go from unit to IC, then, no, it doesn't transfer to the IC. If it is an ability that is not listed as something that cannot be transferred, it may be transferred.

Truly this discussion stems from the vast majority of readers that the words "Independent Character" now *has* to be in every rule for it to work with ICs

No, actually, it only has to be included for a very limited situation. If a unit has an ability that is governed by one of the USRs from the BRB and that ability is specifically not transferred to joined IC's by the rules in the BRB, then the unit's specific rules must state that the ability is transferred to the IC. If the unit ability in question is one that is not governed by the USRs in the BRB, then we do not have an issue.

4) Does the Chaplains special rule work for other ICs in his unit? like fearless and re-roll misses?

-----Going by this logic it doesn't.

So? Maybe that was intended as an issue of balance so that another IC can't benefit from the Chaplain's special rules. This assumption is every bit as valid as your own.

Simply put: This rule was made for units/mobs/whatever that had its own *innate* ability/special rule (like Grotesques, Death company, etc..) *Not* for special rules that specify they are supposed to work for the *unit* he is with.

This is a complete assumption by yourself that is not backed up by anything in any of the rule books.

Honestly where this is going, it will apply to *ALOT* more than most posters realize.

something to ponder

The FNP granted by a painboy or mad doc grotsnik comes from a piece of wargear. The wargear rules say it confers the FNP special rule to the painboy's unit( CO:p. 38).

IC's cannot grant or receive the benefits of a non-shared special rule with a unit they join (BRB: p. 48).

Thus according to RAW:
A Warboss joining a nob mob with a painboy would not get FNP.

Mad Doc Grotsnik would not grant FNP to anyone but himself as he is a unit of 1. Even if he joins a unit, he can't grant them FNP as an IC.

if the boss is in the unit, does he not have to test and move as the unit does? would it not make sense then that he would get FNP? rule wise, it makes sense to not give it to him so there is a chance to kill hte boss, fluff wise the boss should get it.

grotsnik has the doc's tools, which says ,in its entry on p. 38 taht it confers FNP to the unit, if grotsnik is in the unit, does he not confer it to the unit? why does him being an IC cancel that out? it is stated in the codex that it goes to the unit, wouldnt that over rule the rules?

Webbe wrote:So how do you people that don't think an IC gets FNP from a painboy treat Mad Dok Grotsnik?

His unit is himself so I guess he can never confer FNP on anyone else by your reading?

Exactly. They are overlooking that Mad Dok Grotsnik just has dok's tools. And the rules for those are found in the Painboyz wargear and that's it. So there is nothing other than the codex description for dok's tools that is applicable here.

Well there you go...according to some peoples reading of the rules

Never attach any IC to a unit with a Chaplain, because they will not be fearless anymore.

silly

utan wrote:The FNP granted by a painboy or mad doc grotsnik comes from a piece of wargear. The wargear rules say it confers the FNP special rule to the painboy's unit( CO:p. 38).

IC's cannot grant or receive the benefits of a non-shared special rule with a unit they join (BRB: p. 48).

Thus according to RAW:
A Warboss joining a nob mob with a painboy would not get FNP.

Mad Doc Grotsnik would not grant FNP to anyone but himself as he is a unit of 1. Even if he joins a unit, he can't grant them FNP as an IC.

No this is wrong. FNP does not have a "*" so therefore the IC doesn't lose it when he joins a unit!

yakface wrote:

olympia wrote:
So the Painboy's FNP does confer to the Warboss because it "specifies in the rule itself" that FNP from the dok's tools is granted to the painboy's unit. Mind you, Mad Doc Grotsnik also has Dok's Tools, the exact same wargear as a Painboy, and clearly Mad Doc's FNP is meant to affect more than just himself? Yakface, would you agree with that?

Nope, you've got it backwards. Read page 48 of the rulebook under "special rules". An IC who joins a unit does not confer the rule upon the unit, and vice-versa unless the rule specifies otherwise.

In the case of Mad Dok Grotsnik, the ability most certainly specifies that it is conferred the unit (so it is) but nothing speciifes that Grotsnik himself (or any other IC that joins the unit) benefits from the special rule so he does not.

QFT

p48 of the BRB. ...Unless specified in the rule itself.. ..the unit's special are not conferred upon the character ...

Okay. cool.

p74 of the BRB .. the one in the codex takes precedensce ..

Now reading the FNP in the BRB (p75) simply mentions what the rule does. Unlike the stubborn rule which mentions somthing about IC.

ORK GROBBER NOBS special rules : Fleet, infiltrate, FNP

^^ a warboss joining this unit wouldnt get fleet, (assuming it doesnt come with fleet), infiltrate or FNP. The first two due to the lil * (p78, 3rd paragraph) and the third due to p48 of the BRB.

This unit doesnt exist. Nor do nobz get FNP as a special rule.


A: So, refering to P74 of the BRB, (we also see that FNP doesnt have a *) we can look to the ork codex to see thier use of the rule. The rule works as FNP but its application from the mad doc confers the FNP to a unit. When the IC joins that unit you look at the FNP then follow the procedure from A

In the above.. am I going wrong somwhere? Also.. P73 I think.. Walkers in CC, front armour ALL the time.. Ironclads. You ignore shaken and stunned (i think).. Its horrible.

The fact that FNP is a USR isn't even relevant really. It could be any "special Rule", it does not have to be a Universal Special Rule.

If the wargear let the unit move one extra inch each turn, it would not apply to the IC unless it specifically said it did.

Edit: oops sorry I brainfarted

nostromo.. if this make-believe ORK GROBBER NOBZ came with the FNP, the warboos would not gain FNP (Due to p48 of the BRB).

- reguardless of the lack of an *

Im still sticking by my point but I dont see what yours is.

Coredump - its really relevenet. Just because. If I have to explain.. read the above.

Also.. I wanna make an Iron clad MotF list now...

nostromo wrote:Let us open the big red bible at page 74, the chapter of 'universal special rules', paragraph 3 to recite following psalm :
"the special rules marked with an asterisk(*) are automatically lost by an ic if he joins a unit that does not have the same special rule..."
Now I will invite this congregation to meditate on the third paragraph of page 75 and especially consider the absence of asterisk sign(*) at this particular entry.

QFT to show that the previous QFT was not the T.

Edit: Shot down!

coredump wrote:The fact that FNP is a USR isn't even relevant really. It could be any "special Rule", it does not have to be a Universal Special Rule.

If the wargear let the unit move one extra inch each turn, it would not apply to the IC unless it specifically said it did.

And likewise an IC doesn't grant rules to a unit unless it specifically says it does. So Mad Dok doesn't grant FNP to a unit he joins, or Khan doesn't grant hit and run + furious charge to a unit he joins? This line of reasoning breaks a couple of well known models doesn't it?

Platuan4th wrote:
By this, if I join a Chaos Lord to a unit of Chaos Marines with an Icon, he suddenly gains that mark, as the Icon gives the Mark to the unit, just like the Painboy. Actually, I'm going to start using this interpretation as my Lash Sorc with a unit of Tzeentch Icon Marines now has a 4+ Invulnerable!

Straw man, easily defeated at that. Wording of Icon conferrance is: "All models in the unit, except independent characters joining the unit, have the mark of X"

Moz wrote:Straw man, easily defeated at that. Wording of Icon conferrance is: "All models in the unit, except independent characters joining the unit, have the mark of X"

LoL. Teach me not to look at my Codex and only work on memory.

olympia wrote: FNP does not have a "*" so therefore the IC doesn't lose it when he joins a unit!

I didn't say Mad Doc lost FNP, merely that it only applies to him. The rules for Doc's Tools say that they confer FNP to "his unit" and not a unit or any unit he is attached to.
The unit doesn't lose FNP either, it just never had it.