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Squig_herder wrote:Lets try not to bite, ok ^^

It all depends on the army build and tactics.

If that was aimed at me... Don't worry. I wasn't biting.
I come to Dakka to learn and share. I only discuss. I don't like the ever-prevalent arguing that goes on.

I was simply stating what I see as a statement of fact... and, IMO, tactics don't help a crappy army build.

Airmaniac wrote:MagickalMemories, you seem to be really underestimating the survivability of a fortuned Wraithguard unit taken as a troops choice. They will simply shrug off most of the high strength shots the Tau put out, due to a re-rollable 3+ armour save. Sure the Tau have weapons to ignore that save, but they sure don't have a whole lot of them and the Wraithguard will simply take their re-rollable 4+ cover save against those.

No. Not at all. I don't underestimate their survivability at all. I simply don't find it to be worthwhile when coupled with their prohibitive points cost.
Rerollable 3+ saves mean nothing against the Tau big guns (names slip my memory).
Rerollable cover saves? Dod I miss that? Since when do the COME WITH cover saves? If you're merely referring to cover saves from terrain... Well, tables aren't 100% terrain. You can't utilize them as objective takers AND hide them... You also can't use their guns very well without getting close enough.

Also.... see my notes under pathfinders re: Cover saves.

Airmaniac wrote:Pathfinders are very hard for the Tau to kill as well. They get a 2+ cover save which is very difficult for the Tau to circumvent, due to not wanting to be close to their opposition. Yes, they can decrease the cover save with markerlights, but taking lots of markerlights in a 1000 points match will make your main army very small.

These two units alone will make the Tau suffer, especially in objective missions where the opposing player will want to kill your troops.

You hit on markerlights, but you underestimate a GOOD tau player. A GOOD tau player will have a bunch of markerlights. That makes your pathfinders WAY less "uber' when that 2+ save drops to a 5+ from massed lights (IIRC, markerlights can be used to reduce cover saves AND can be stacked. Yes?).

Another problem about Pathfinders as TROOPS is in objective missions. Are they going to be a firebase OR try to take an objective? You don't often get to do both. Outside of terrain, they're fish in a barrel.
Also: Tau HtH units eat pathfinders and pick their teeth with wraithbone toothpicks.

Airmaniac wrote:Adding a Harlequin unit with a shadowseer (which is commonly seen to support the Wraithguard, as close combat is their biggest weakness) will only make it worse for the Tau.

Really? Running harlies across the board is going to be HARD for tau? Dude. They have a 5+ Invul save. As soon as they get withing REASONABLE range, a good tau player's going to drop a template or massed shots in them. Harlies lose 2 of every 3 models that have to roll a save.

Airmaniac wrote:The Wraithlords and the Avatar will be killed pretty damn fast against the Tau though.

Agreed.


Eric

And those crisis suits are getting flamer templates on those pathfinders how exactly?

You do realise they have to be within 14" of the closest model of a squad to get even a single hit (6" move, 8" template), which means they need to start their turn within 10"-12" to get an effective template on the pathfinders. This means moving through open ground, where the pathfinders will snipe them off. They will have more than enough turns for this because the crisis suits will have to move around the big Wraithguard unit that will instant kill any crisis team that ends it's turn within 18" of it.

The same thing goes for the harlequins. They have a threat range of 18", while the crisis teams have a shorter threat range (see above). Another thing to consider is that fortune isn't bound to one unit and the harlequins will probably be babysitting the Wraithguard anyway. This means that when you do get close the harlequins will probably get the 5+ re-rollable invulnerable save. The Wraithguard won't die in a turn without fortune, hell they survived the entire last battle without it.

Yes the Wraithguard would get a 4+ cover save anywhere on the field. It's called screening with other units. Not being able to shoot the harlequins outside of 2D6x2" doesn't mean you can negate them for cover purposes.

Airmaniac wrote:And those crisis suits are getting flamer templates on those pathfinders how exactly?

I didn't say anything about templates.
Granted, I haven't played against tau in a while, so I don't know, off-hand... Are template weapons the only "shooty" available to Crisis suits?

Airmaniac wrote:You do realise they have to be within 14" of the closest model of a squad to get even a single hit (6" move, 8" template), which means they need to start their turn within 10"-12" to get an effective template on the pathfinders. This means moving through open ground, where the pathfinders will snipe them off. They will have more than enough turns for this because the crisis suits will have to move around the big Wraithguard unit that will instant kill any crisis team that ends it's turn within 18" of it.

You're playing in a bubble, with your logic.
There will be way more units on the field than Pathfinders, Wraithguard and Crisis suits.
A smart player won't gamble with the suits, if he isn't in a desperate position. The pathfinders will be shot by firewarrios, most likely, due to the range & Str. of their shots.

You overestimate that individual unit of WG, I think. Also... don't forget that their cost prohibitive nature will eat deeply into the army's effectiveness.

Airmaniac wrote:The same thing goes for the harlequins. They have a threat range of 18", while the crisis teams have a shorter threat range (see above). Another thing to consider is that fortune isn't bound to one unit and the harlequins will probably be babysitting the Wraithguard anyway. This means that when you do get close the harlequins will probably get the 5+ re-rollable invulnerable save. The Wraithguard won't die in a turn without fortune, hell they survived the entire last battle without it.

So, you're going to take that fragile unit that NEEDS to get into HtH to unleash it's FULL effectiveness... that has FLEET... and use it to babysit a bunch of WG? By "babysit," are you referring to shielding them for cover saves? Wouldn't a Guardian squad be better (and less expensive) for that?

I had a single SM model win combat with a Carnifex and kill it in 2 rounds. That doesn't mean basic SM are killers in HtH against Monstrous creatures.
Same for those WG. Just because it happened once, that doesn't mean it'll happen again.

Rerollable 5+ saves are't THAT good.

Airmaniac wrote:Yes the Wraithguard would get a 4+ cover save anywhere on the field. It's called screening with other units. Not being able to shoot the harlequins outside of 2D6x2" doesn't mean you can negate them for cover purposes.

Bubble again.
You can't guarantee that you're going to have the opportunity to screen them. Even if you do, you're going to have to (a) take a HIGE (expensive) unit of harlies for that shield or (b) Keep your WG formed up tightly, so that my units can't see more than 50% of that LARGE unit behind the harlies.

Also, M-Lights will reduce that cover save NICELY.

Eric

As a Tau player I also am surprised by your opponents list. I understand the concept of a bunch of cheap(er) tough units. Its just that your bikes could probaly tie all those squads up in HtH and he has to put himself into hth range to use those guys. His Kroot fall to the scatter lasers(all you got to kill is 3-4 from each squad and they have a 40% chance of breaking. I can't believe he threw away points on the XV-8 blacksun filters when for just 2 pts more per model he could run target locks(Thats dropping only 2 fw). As it stands hes flushing 30 pts down the drain with the BS filters on units equipped with flamers. Your bright lances insta kill broadsides,not bad but I'm going to suggest a few tweaks.

I'm assuming both of you gents aren't using tanks because you want to do an infantry theme(otherwise my suggetions would be very different)

First) Drop Maugan Ra, I know he's great but to many points and not complimentary to your army. Instead Run a Farseer with Fortune and the Spiritseer ability. This way you can drop the spiritseer with the wraithguard(more points saved) and join the Farseer to the Wraithguard.
Second) Don't let fluff make you sink pts unecessarily. Make the Wraithguard your eilite with 5 models. This leaves you enough points to run a Third Guardian Jetbike squad and to be able to Warlock all three sqauds. Or A Gaurdian squad with weapon platform, but still warlock(enhance) the other jetbike squad.
Third)Combine your jetbike squads then you only need one jetbike warlock getting into points range for another guardian squad or some rangers(if you can get the point for the 2 shuriken cannons go for it).
Fourth)March a Wraith Lord right behind your wraithguard. Even if it means you have to drop the single war walker(which I don't think you will but I dont have book in front of me for the math).


With these changes your jetbike squad will wipe the crisis flamers off of the board by charging into hth and be protected from fire doing so, even if the kroot join in. You will run your wraithguard first turn(and only first turn) and walk the Lord behind constantly firing At the broadsides and remember walker weapons are not twin linked.

Some of this you probably already know just put them in for new players/readers. Let me know what you think of these suggestions.

@ MagickalMemories

I was talking about the templates because those are the only weapons the crisis suits have in the army listed by the OP.

This army also doesn't include any markerlights, which means the fire warrior shooting versus the pathfinders will accomplish very little due to 2+ cover saves.

By the harlequins babysitting the wraithguard unit I mean, protecting them from close combat, which is the biggest weakness they have. The cover save they grant them is only an additional bonus (which is only needed against the broadsides shooting btw, as the tau army the OP posted has no other means of ignoring a 3+ armour save).

I don't know why you keep bringing up markerlights but the army posted by the OP doesn't include those.


@ focusedfire

The wraithguard are there as a very survivable scoring unit, which will be a big problem to the tau army the OP listed. They aren't very good as elites, as the opponent will just ignore them due to their low offensive capabilities. For this very same reason he needs to keep the spiritseer in the wraithguard squad, or they will not count as a troops choice.

Wraithlords are normally a very good idea for these kind of armies, but the tau will have little difficulty bringing them down. Especially since the army listed includes 3 railguns in 1000 points.

@Airmaniac

Check the size of the wraith guard vs the monsterous creature(Wraithlord). If they are waist high he gets coversave. Also, the Tau list is very limited in the number of targets engaged per turn and only one heavy hitting squad.

Yes you are right about warlock, was thinking farseerers had that option also. Join the Farseerer to the Wraithgaurd and Spiritseerer.

No they do not need to be troops. They need to be steadily pushing forward into enemy territory where their guns will do some good, while the objective holding troops do what they are supposed to.

@OP The danger of their guns after running the first turn will attract a lot of attention. Maybe put 6 or 7 wraithguard but thats enough. Save the points for the extra Wraith Guard by combining the 2 jetbikes but make it a 5 bike squad with warlock.

Arm the guardian defenders with ML, the templates will mess the FWs up(no save if in the open) and give you a 40ish% chance at insta-deathing an exposed crisis suit. Keep the on back edge directly across from FW(rang 48 vs range 30)

Do the same for the unit of Warwalkers. Blast temps are the friend of BS3. Or arm them with starcannons and make use of their scout rule(flanking if your into gambling). Run them 2 strong.

Arm Wraithlord with brightlance and or starcannon(depending on pts) and if going second line him up as close to broadsides as possible while still getting coversaves or being out of line of sight.

Remember, insta-death one broadside and they're taking Leadership test. Once Broadsides are gone turn your attention and all the ap2&3 love onto the crisis suits While MLs work over the FWs and your Jetbikes tie up and kill crisis and kroot.

May be able to only run one walker squad with the Lord or two walkers teams of 2. I'll math it up in a bit.

Uh.......How are the flamer-using suits going to get within range without at least a few wounds?

Also, Shadowseer + invulnerable save = a very hard-to-flame post/unit.

**hides**

Airmaniac wrote:@ MagickalMemories

I was talking about the templates because those are the only weapons the crisis suits have in the army listed by the OP.

This army also doesn't include any markerlights, which means the fire warrior shooting versus the pathfinders will accomplish very little due to 2+ cover saves.

By the harlequins babysitting the wraithguard unit I mean, protecting them from close combat, which is the biggest weakness they have. The cover save they grant them is only an additional bonus (which is only needed against the broadsides shooting btw, as the tau army the OP posted has no other means of ignoring a 3+ armour save).

I don't know why you keep bringing up markerlights but the army posted by the OP doesn't include those.

Good, valid points.

I think we're just tackling it from different angles. You're kitting him for THAT tau army, and I'm kitting him for a good tau army.
Any tau plyer worth his salt of going to have plenty of markerlights, so that was my line.

You're right, though, that THIS force doesn't seem to have any. Good enough.

Should his opponent wise up & start taking ML's, though, he's screwed.


Eric