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Lash and Nurgle's Rot are two totally different powers with their own uses. Nurlge's Rot makes Daemon Princes butchers of light infantry. It allows the DP to wander around effectively unsupported.

Lash, on the other hand, is the setup to the one-two combo punch which is finished by blast weapons, so you need your list configured around it. As part of of a combo, it is more delicate and costly to pull off (you need the DP, a successful psychic power, and some pie plates) but far more powerful and flexible when properly executed.

The problem with nurgle's rot is that close combat oriented Eldar, Dark Eldar, and Sisters of Battle are very, very much in the minority for armies that you will face at tournaments and FLGS groups.

Lash isnt only usable for a one-two combo punch with blast weapons though. It has the ability to disrupt enemie forces by pushing them around and breaking up formations. Draggin things into rapid fire rang or charge distances(in effect adding 2d6 assult range for the DP). Its also the chepest power.

Nurgles rot doesnt work very well against anything sadly, except for things that you would already beat with other powers. (esp wind of chaos)

Lastly the BoT-Doombolt works very bad to take potshots at a character after clearing his bodyguard since you shoot everything the same time and the owner distributes the wounds.

My take on the builds : I'm assuming you always buy wings, because why wouldn't you? I also left lash out because everyone else covered it. You move people into blast friendly circles, and flame/battle cannon/plasma cannon/blast master them to death and then the game ends and you win and then you don't have willing opponents anymore.

Slaanesh (or no slaanesh, I'd go with the 5 point I upgrade though)
Warptime

I think this build is overall the most effective. Lash runs into issues with highly mechanized or psychic resistant armies, where as this one just needs to avoid hoods and beat runes, shadows etc. It has the initiative to take out characters, and needing 3s to hit and 2s to wound the majority of the game with re-rolls usually means 5 wounds on the charge, and 4 without every turn.

Warptime also helps it flip tanks over. re-rolling your 4s to hits and your 6's is pretty major when you're throwing str 6 +2d6 at vehicles.

Nurgle
Rot

Pretty effective infantry butcher. Doesn't matter if they are light or not, extra wounds means extra damage and it probably has the highest damage output out of the close combat ones. He's also a bitch to kill and can tarpit stuff like guard and other weenies.

Khorne

I'd skip it, unless it's for your Khorne themed army. An extra attack, while nice and potentially more damaging than re-rolls in certain situations, isn't worth the points for the mark. I guess if you fear anti psych stuff then go for it. I did the numbers on khorne and warptime, and warptime is optimal in all cases except a stationary vehicle.

Tzeentch
Wind of chaos
Warp-time

This one is absolutely brutal. I haven't used it yet, but I know what it is going to do when it's powers go off - drop like 6 wounds on whatever you're shooting at regardless of their armor or toughness. And then the prince charges in and kills another 4-5. I think 10 power weapon wounds or so between shooting and assaulting is worth the near 200 point price tag. And then it has a 4+ invulnerable, which doesn't seem that significant, but is also on a MC with a 5 toughness and 7 weapon skill and 4 wounds. For obvious reasons a 4+ on 5 toughness is dramatically better than the same save on a lower toughness.

The only drawback I can see for this build is the fruity paint scheme you will have to give it.

The other ones like doombolt/warptime, doom bolt/bolt of change blah blah I don't think are worth using. They suffer from not ignoring cover (which is everywhere now) or just making your prince a gakky tank. I'd prefer to keep him highly mobile with intent on getting into close combat, where he can add to your anti tank ability, take down carnifex's in one turn or otherwise do something else than shoot 3 marine killing shots.

ShadowDeth wrote:My take on the builds : I'm assuming you always buy wings, because why wouldn't you? I also left lash out because everyone else covered it. You move people into blast friendly circles, and flame/battle cannon/plasma cannon/blast master them to death and then the game ends and you win and then you don't have willing opponents anymore.

It seems kinda stupid for your opponents to be like "either make a sucky list or we won't play you"

Players who would stop playing vs. a lasher instead of using their own armies strengths (and every army has somethings which chaos lack.)

Should I stop playing vanilla marines because their termies have 3+ invulnerable saves in combat compared to my 5+? Or their Landraider variants fire several more guns than chaos ones?

Oblits are good at what they are, expensive, sluggish, big guns. The unit can be wiped out by 3 lascannon shots though, and it costs about as much as a Landraider w/ Armor 14, or a squad of 8 havocs w/ 2 autocannons + 2 lascannons, which would take a whole 8 lascannon shots to remove.


While some might like to believe that chaos all play the same army list, it just isn't the case. I see plenty of every type of troop marine (reg. / berz. / noise / plague / sons) being used. Heavies are also heavily varied, people mix up landraiders, vindicators, obliterators, and defilers. The chosen and possessed and spawn and lesser daemons all seem overpriced though, which is probably why lists generally seem to lack variety.

Chaos will never be fast-and-shooty like vanilla or eldar, so we have to have some compensation.

ShadowDeth wrote:
Tzeentch
Wind of chaos
Warp-time

This one is absolutely brutal. I haven't used it yet, but I know what it is going to do when it's powers go off - drop like 6 wounds on whatever you're shooting at regardless of their armor or toughness. And then the prince charges in and kills another 4-5. I think 10 power weapon wounds or so between shooting and assaulting is worth the near 200 point price tag. And then it has a 4+ invulnerable, which doesn't seem that significant, but is also on a MC with a 5 toughness and 7 weapon skill and 4 wounds. For obvious reasons a 4+ on 5 toughness is dramatically better than the same save on a lower toughness.

The only drawback I can see for this build is the fruity paint scheme you will have to give it.

The other ones like doombolt/warptime, doom bolt/bolt of change blah blah I don't think are worth using. They suffer from not ignoring cover (which is everywhere now) or just making your prince a gakky tank. I'd prefer to keep him highly mobile with intent on getting into close combat, where he can add to your anti tank ability, take down carnifex's in one turn or otherwise do something else than shoot 3 marine killing shots.

Although I don't agree with your analysis of Nurgle's Rot, I don't believe it to be very effective in any situation, I think your views on a MoT, Wind, Warptime DP are spot on. When I first finished painting up my MoT DP I found it very useless as it was Wings, Doombolt, Warptime. He flew on top of buildings and took out marines. Then stood around for a turn getting shot to pieces. Then the next turn do it again and charge. Sure he might take out a squad but he usually ended up dead from his one round of shooting due to the 18" range. You don't want to neuter the power by not using it's range, but you don't want to leave your DP vulnerable either. With BoC and Warptime, I found his 1 shot useless a majority of the time. He'd shoot a rhino, maybe pop it, maybe, then he'd go about moving forward firing and attempting a charge.

But with Wind and Warptime it's honestly pure gold. I need to test it some more but it's perfect so far. He finds some LOS blocking terrain feature hides for a turn then pops out for a rather devastating rerolling wind and assault phase. The best part is his 4++ save. It's almost like he is always in cover. So even if he wipes the squad he assaults he has a better chance at surviving what might be a brutal enemy shooting phase.

What's even better is a nearby Lash Sorcerer to back him up. Hate to support Lash in a thread I started looking for alternatives but a Lash Sorc hiding in a squad could break from his squad to set up a full force rerolled wind and assault from the MoT DP. I'm going to go get some test games in with it this weekend as long as my impending surgery doesn't get in the way.

Here are my two favorite builds:

MoT, wings, warp time, wind of chaos

MoN, wings, rot

I am an advocating that these are the most powerful builds but they are effective and fluffy in my opinion.

G

I actually play a pure Khorne Army.

i use Kharn and a Khorne DP as my HQ's.

the Khorne DP is a asset in this kind of army.
He becomes your tank hunter and can also be a sacrifice to allow your Beserker Squads to get into combat.


But thats just me.

Ænema wrote:
the Khorne DP is a asset in this kind of army.
He becomes your tank hunter and can also be a sacrifice to allow your Beserker Squads to get into combat.

Before I begin, I'd like to say I don't think DPs tank hunt very well. If it moved 6" you need 4 plus no rerolls with a MoK DP, if it moved 12" your screwed and have to hit it on 6s. I think if anyone in their right mind sees him coming they are going to start moving a little more and shooting the DP to death.

Now back to why I'm bumping this. I went to my FLGS last night and had a good sit down with everyone and played some games. Sadly I only played vs. Khorne Chaos Daemons and wasn't really able to fully gauge the effectiveness of the MoT DP against a more traditional army. I had to sacrifice him once to a group of Blood Crushers and on another game he actually failed to use Wind with a 12 that he made both invulnerable saves not to take any wounds from. He also beat some Blood Crushers in assault a few times taking the squad down single handed. He did wade through a group of Blood Letters and pop a Soul Grinder. Given this was in smaller points games (750, we're play testing for our up coming League).

The actual point of this is every time I was about to wind I kept thinking, I wish I had a Lash Sorc/Prince to facilitate this better. I think this is a problem, I've played Lash Sorcs in the past and I'm so very used to them setting up my templates that it's hard for me to imagine not catching an entire squad with one. I won every game I played with my list handily and I think the same would have occurred against anyone that night. But I think there is a problem with the player mentality with C:CSMs. Lash is a great power, but there are other good powers. Lash just makes other things much much better. Flame templates? Lash will have you hitting that whole squad. Plasma Cannons? Just don't drift and your set. A warp timed wind of chaos? I'm sure there won't be a squad there after the assault. I know it sounds like a cop out but every time I think of a weapon or a strategy I always think now "Lash could make this even better!". I've been playing without Lash a little longer than just now too and I always think that Lash could make my lists better rather than the throw away HQs or the test HQs.

I think this would go for any army really. If they had Lash it would dominate the list. It just makes so many things so much better. I just hope in the next C:CSMs they don't try to tone it down, just replace it. As is it is very effective, but any less and it suddenly becomes garbage.

Personally, I don't like to spend a whole lotta points on my DP. I run a Black Legion one with Wings and Warptime. Effective in close combat, tough, and mobile. However, you could gear one with MoT and 2 ranged psychic powers for some shooty goodness. If I'm not mistaken, Monstrous Creatures can still fire two weapons a turn, so I believe you could use two ranged psychic powers in the same turn, though I could be wrong as I've not poured over the 5th ed. rulebook that much. Also, most of the time your DP will attract a lot of attention, so don't look for it to last all that long. That's why I try to get into close combat ASAP.