Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Wow....way to repeat the same inferences and interpretations over, and over, and over again.......

None of what you have said ever points to specific RAW that Fleet gives movement in 5th...because it doesn't. End of story.

Please, just admit that GW messed up and needs to address this with an official answer....your interpretations don't carry anymore wieght than anyone elses (mine included)

Nurglitch wrote:

Waaagh!, p.31, Codex: Orks wrote:Once per game, the Ork player can declare a Waaagh! during his Shooting phase. This may not normally be declared on the first turn as a proper Waaagh! needs some momentum behind it. For the duration of that turn, all friendly Ork infantry units have the 'fleet of foot' rule (not Gretchin units, they're far too weedy for a proper Waaagh!).

If a unit rolls a 1 when making this Waaagh! movement, the Orks start fighting before they get to the enemy.

Does a unit have to make a Waaagh! move? No, they just have Fleet of Foot.

Fleet, p.75 wrote:There are many variants of this rule: Fleet of Foot, Fleet of Claw, even Fleet of Hoof.

A unit with this rule may assault in the same turn in which it has run.

Fleet of Foot is Fleet. It confers the option of assaulting if the unit has run. So what's running?

Run!, p.16, Rulebook wrote:In their Shooting phase, units may choose to run instead of firing, immediately moving D6".

Units that run in the Shooting phase cannot assault in the following Assault phase.

So if a player calls a Waaagh! then any units of Ork infantry, sans Gretchin, have Fleet of Foot for the duration of that turn. Instead of firing, these Ork units can choose to run, moving D6". If a unit rolls a 1 when making this Waaagh! movement, the unit takes a wound. A unit with this rule may assault in the same turn in which it has run.

Alerian wrote:Wow....way to repeat the same inferences and interpretations over, and over, and over again.......

None of what you have said ever points to specific RAW that Fleet gives movement in 5th...because it doesn't. End of story.

Nurglitch wrote:[quote=Nurglitch

Fleet, p.75 wrote:There are many variants of this rule: Fleet of Foot, Fleet of Claw, even Fleet of Hoof.

A unit with this rule may assault in the same turn in which it has run.

Fleet of Foot is Fleet. It confers the option of assaulting if the unit has run. So what's running?

EXACTLY!!!!!!
Fleet grants assault after running....it does not grant any movement. Your own quote makes my point. Everything else that you said is a roundabout bit of inferrence and rules lawerering to say that Waaaagh! (which is Fleet for one turn) is somehow movement.

It was movement in 4th; it is not movement in 5th...as per your own quote. There is no denying that fact.

The problem is the Ork dex's mention of Waagh! movement. Either we must throw it out, since Waaagh!=Fleet and Fleet does not grant movement, or we must come up with our own way to make it work (counting Running as Waaagh! movement). And, although counting running as Waaagh! movement seems like a good interpretation of the designer's intent, it isnot how the 5th ed rules are written. I don't know why it is so hard for you to admit that GW should fix this so that players can just play the game instead of guessing at and arguing over muddy rules.

Alerian:

So....

If my own quote makes your point...





Edit: I suppose all I can say is what's wrong with you that you can't accept that these rules are crystal clear, and that GW doesn't need to do anything? The fact that my cousin can't tie his own shoelaces doesn't mean there's anything wrong with shoelaces, it just means that velcro is more his speed...

Fleet under older rules meant additional movement.
Fleet under current rules affects the Run option available to all armies unless otherwise listed.
Waaaagh! still confers Fleet, thus the 'Waaagh' movement is like a Run movement that has special rules associated with it (can assault, roll of 1 means a wound).

So what's the problem?

The problem is reading Raw vs RaI.

RaW, theres no such thing as a Waaagh! movement, so you never take the wounds on a roll of 1, and can run first THEN declare a Waaagh!

RaI (Deducing from how it worked in 4th) you declare the Waaaaagh! first then roll for Running, with a roll of 1 causing the wound.

Nurglitch wrote:Ghaz:

You may want to read more carefully then. Let me diagram it for you:

"In other words, Fleet grants assault movement if the unit runs. And so, technically, since Waaagh! confers Fleet if a unit ran, then running is Waaagh! movement."

Fleet grants an option if some condition obtains. The condition is whether a unit ran or not. The option is whether a unit will assault move or not. Fleet does not grant the condition to assault move. If it did, then your conclusion would be correct. However, the condition is having run, and so your conclusion is incorrect.

I read it quite carefully, thank you. You need to explain how running is Waaagh! movement when you can run even without using the 'Waaagh!' 'Waaagh!' grants you the ability to Assault even if you ran by granting you 'Fleet'. Therefore the 'Waaagh!' movement is the Assault move you would not have had because you ran.

Overall I have to agree with Insaniak's view though.

Let me just start off by saying i agree with Nurglitch on this. To me it makes since since one rule references another, you then use that rule, just in this case waagh references fleet which references running (makes since to me).

I'll ask this at my FLGS tonight as there usually is another ork player around (besides me) but I really expect the majority of people would explain it as Nurglich has. Also don't hold your breath for a new ork dex anytime soon (its 5th edition) also not sure how often they update the FAQ online but I dout it will get answered.

I will say i can see where gaz and insaniak are comming from though...

RAW? RAI? Whatever. Let's add a new one: RAR (Rules as Reasonable).

Is the wording crystal clear? Probably not. GW's development team isn't exactly writing engineering specs for the international space station.

How should this reasonably be played? Nurglitch has it right.
>Declare a Waaagh! during the shooting phase.
>From that point on, all applicable units gain "Fleet" and take a wound on a roll of one for their Run.
>Ghaz makes all units run 6".
>Ends with the current turn.

Nurglitch wrote:insaniak:

Except that as you've pointed out, if the problem with the rule is that Fleet is not movement, then it can hardly be a candidate for the pronoun in "this Waaagh! movement".

Fortunately the Fleet rule itself contains a reference to movement, running movement.

Running movement happens in the Shooting phase so, contrary to your assertion, the Fleet rule referencing it "kicks in" in the Shooting phase when a unit runs.

Due to the Fleet rule, a unit that has run in the Shooting phase has the option of also engaging in assault movement in the Assault phase.

So, to summarize:

If we assume you are correct and Fleet is not movement and does not involve running, your claim that Fleet is referenced by the first sentence of the second paragraph ("this Waaagh! movement") cannot be true because then Fleet is not movement to be referenced.

If we assume that you are wrong, and that the rules themselves are correct, and that Fleet does itself reference movement, then "this" in "this Waaagh! movement" clearly refers to running.

Now, of course we assume the Akaiyou didn't make up a story about some imaginary game. His opponent knew how the rule worked, and Akaiyou tried to rules lawyer otherwise. Fortunately fortune decided correctly in that case.

This nurglitch guy is a piece of work seriously.

Let me give you an example of how silly your thought pattern in this 'association' you are making here is.


FEEL NO PAIN special rule
- References armour saves

THUS by YOUR reasoning because it references armour saves FEEL NO PAIN = ARMOUR SAVES!

Just because one rule makes a reference to another rule does not EVER and i do mean EVER, mean they are = . The mere implication that you are making is what I can only describe as stupidity at it's best, as in the case of your cousin who can't tie his shoelace.

Your association is INCORRECT sir. Referencing does not mean 'equal to'.

And while the rule should be used as RAI in THIS particular case the RAW suggests the opposite and by RAW FAQ that "Waagh Movement" you so adamantly cling onto is completely VOID in 5th edition. Everyone here supporting that there IS a different RAW interpretation has pointed many key points to you that you willfully ignore in favor of your 'association that somehow the word reference means that A = B".

Here's another reference for you.

Sentence A
"Cars are nice"

Sentence B
"People drive cars"

by your logic

"People are nice"

LMAOOOO =shakes head= Do you see my point?

I really hope so. On another note just because people don't agree with your 'associations' and 'interpretations' of something does not mean they are rules-lawyering and blah blah blah, it simply means they have a 2nd opinion. And in this case we have a VERY strong 2nd opinion on the matter that has solid ground to stand on and be based off. I can only describe your manner of rebuttal as sheer ignorance on your behalf of the possibility that you 'could' be wrong.

And since we are all apparently rules-lawyers on the internet, then I highly recommend you never enter into conflict with ANYONE in your life or they'll rules-lawyer you to death with their difference of opinion! And of course...how dare they defy you!

I posted this on many sites and apparently the consensus seems to be (or at least the great majority of people believe) that Fleet = RUN + Assault, and thus Ghazghkull gets an automatic 6" RUN during his waagh that lasts 1 turn. So he AND the entire Ork army gets an 18" assault range GUARANTEED for 1 turn.

Links to the threads with people's opinion on the issue:
Astronomican

The Waagh
- The Waagh's Unofficial Ork FAQ

DakkaDakka

Heresy-Online

IG Message Board

Ammobunker

Librarium Online

Warseer

Tau Online

Well you really dont need to worry about Ghaz assulting on turn 1...he can't waaagh turn 1. Besides 18" assult isn't that bad, jump pack units get it (stormboyz have 24" if the roll a 6 for their packs), beast and clavery get 18 guarenteed and up to 24" if the are fleet....

The FNP reference isn't even in the same ballpark as our argument, neither is the other. What we are saying is Fleet = Run + Assult (Fleet and run are not the same obviously, fleet is a "better" form of run). Basically when something has/gains fleet read p75 USR Fleet which then makes you look up Run which is on p 16...BRB

Gack...double post

Also, as someone mentioned earlier but got lost in all of this arguing, Waaghh! says that it is "used in the shooting phase" but it doesn't say when in the shooting phase. So as an example, what happens when I do this:

[Shooting Phase]
Run Squad A
Run Squad B
Run Squad C
Shoot Squad D
Shoot Squad E
Declare Waagh!
[End Shooting Phase]

Now, if you are saying that the run movement is Waagh! Movement, then at the end of the shooting phase, when I declare Waagh!, I now have to back up and remember if I rolled a 1 for squads A-C? And if I did, I have to back up and take wounds? Even though stuff has happened in between? That definitely doesn't work.

And by RAW I am allowed to do things in this order, because all Waagh! does is give me Fleet, which lets me Assault if I ran in the same turn. I don't have to have Fleet when I run, just as long as I have Fleet by the time I am Assaulting, then I am allowed to make my Assault.

Obviously RAI the run move is what used to be called the Waagh! Movement, and so you should have to declare it at the beginning of the shooting phase, but that is not the case in the RAW.

TehCheator:

The Waaagh! rule states that "For the duration of that turn, all friendly Ork infantry units have the 'fleet of foot' rule...".

So, using the example you've given, none of the squads have executed a Waaagh! move. They've run, but they did it before the Waaagh! was declared, and since they've already run they can't run again during the duration of the Waaagh!

If, to provide a further example, we had the following:

[Shooting Phase]
Run Squad A
[Declare Waaagh!]
Run Squad B
Run Squad C
Shoot Squad D
Shoot Squad E
[/Shooting Phase]

Squad A would not have Fleet of Foot. Squads B through E would have Fleet of Foot for the duration, and Squads B and C's running movement would be Waaagh! movement.

In the INAT FAQ, we ruled on this issue as follows:

ORK.31A.01 – Q: Can a player wait until the end of the shooting phase to call the Waaagh?
A: Yes, but any units that make a ‘run’ move before the Waaagh! is called do not gain the fleet ability in the subsequent Assault phase [clarification].

The reason we did so is because of the chance of doing damage to themselves.

This is a simple rule. All Fleet does is lets you assault after your troops ran in the shooting phase. which if you ran in the shooting phase you can not assault, unless you have Fleet or some other special rule. The power of the Waaagh is just a special name for Fleet for orks.

Squad A would not have Fleet of Foot. Squads B through E would have Fleet of Foot for the duration, and Squads B and C's running movement would be Waaagh! movement.

There is absolutely *no* support for that assertion in the rules.
The rules are very clear, for the rest of the turn *all* units have fleet.

Coredump:

I pointed out where it says that in the rules. I even quoted it for your convenience. As you say, the rules are very clear, you declare a Waaagh! and for the rest of the turn all units have Fleet of Foot. Since Squad A ran prior to the Waaagh! and hence the rest of the turn when Waaagh! takes effect, it does not have Fleet of Foot.

Nurglitch wrote:Coredump:

I pointed out where it says that in the rules. I even quoted it for your convenience. As you say, the rules are very clear, you declare a Waaagh! and for the rest of the turn all units have Fleet of Foot. Since Squad A ran prior to the Waaagh! and hence the rest of the turn when Waaagh! takes effect, it does not have Fleet of Foot.

That makes utterly no sence.

If all units with the Waaaagh! special rule get Fleet of Foot until end of turn, it shouldn't matter if they ran before, after, during or in a parallel space-time. Until the end of the turn, all units have fleet, which lets you assault after running, regardless whether you have the rule when you run or not.

Nurglitch wrote: Since Squad A ran prior to the Waaagh! and hence the rest of the turn when Waaagh! takes effect, it does not have Fleet of Foot.

I have no idea how you reach that conclusion from the actual rules.

Waaagh! grants Fleet for the rest of the turn.
Fleet allows the unit to assault in the same turn in which it has run.
The unit ran that turn.

Waaagh! doesn't suddently make it a new turn. It's the same turn in which the unit ran.

When exactly in the shooting phase the unit gains Fleet has absolutely no bearing on whether or not they ran that turn.

The problem isn't whether or not the squad that's run before the Waagh declared has fleet or not...it's how do you resolve the potential wounds from the run move, if the Waagh is used.

Centurian99:

That's why it's important to understand that Waaagh! only affects units which haven't yet done anything in the Shooting phase: otherwise you have a problem with how to resolve the potential wounds from retroactive Waaagh! movement.

Nurglitch wrote:That's why it's important to understand that Waaagh! only affects units which haven't yet done anything in the Shooting phase:

Which only works if you add in a rule that Waaagh! only affects units which haven't yet done anything in the Shooting phase.


Otherwise, you have this:

Shooting Phase:
A unit of Boyz (we'll stick with calling them Unit A) runs.
Waaagh! is called.

Assault Phase
Unit A wants to assault.

- Did Unit A Run in the Shooting phase?
Yes, they did.

- Has Waaagh! been called earlier in the turn?
Yes, it has. All infantry units therefore currently have Fleet.

- Are Unit A infantry?
Yes, they are. Unit A therefore currently has Fleet.

- Does Fleet allow a unit to assault in the same turn as they Ran.
Yes, it does.

Unit A can therefore Assault.


It makes no difference when Waaagh! is called. Nor does it make any difference whether or not the unit actually Runs. Waaagh! grants Fleet to all infantry units (barring Grots) for the rest of the turn.

I think the reason Nurglitch is thinking this way is due to this:
-Due to Waaagh not having to be called in the beginning of the Shooting Phase it can be called after as you said when a squad runs...but what if this squad that ran rolled a 1? Then you called a Waaagh what is going to happen to that squad... So thats why Nurglitch says it affects only units that havent done anything to resolve this problem.

My own opinion is this is that you guys are right it truly shouldnt matter,fleet goes to everyone and regarding the wounds... though it does not say it has to be called in beginning of shooting phase I think that if you called Waagh in the same turn you rolled a 1 for running you take a wound. Doing Waaagh after things run is just trying to make loopholes if the consensus is the Waaagh movement is the running.

Exactly. Nurglitch, Xfar, et. al - I know what the problem is, and it's exactly in resolving the run roll doing self-damage. Or tracking that damage, to be more precise.

Which is essentially the reason why the INAT faq rules the way it does on the subject...tracking which units have to take wounds makes for extra bookkeeping.

Which brings it all back to the point I made in the first place....

Waaaagh! in its current form is a 4th ed rule, trying to muddle along in 5th ed. GW needs to errata this so that everyone, everywhere can be onteh same page. Not everyone will accept he INAT FAQ, so it falls to GW to make an official ruling....until then, there will be problems.

Xfar wrote:I think the reason Nurglitch is thinking this way is due to this:
-Due to Waaagh not having to be called in the beginning of the Shooting Phase it can be called after as you said when a squad runs...but what if this squad that ran rolled a 1? Then you called a Waaagh what is going to happen to that squad... So thats why Nurglitch says it affects only units that havent done anything to resolve this problem.

We're aware (or at least I am) of why he wants it to work that way.

What we're disputing is that his way is what the rules actually tell you to do.


Once again, there are two ways that this can go:
We can take Nurglitch's way, which is to assume that 'Waaagh!' movement refers to Running, since Fleet no longer involves movement of its own, and that Fleet is only applied to units that Ran after Waaagh! was called... which requires two house rules, but is a reasonable way to play it.

Or

We can take Alerian's way, which is to assume that the reference to Waaagh! movement from Fleet is an obsolete reference to a rule that no longer exists in its original form, which the FAQ tells us to ignore. Fleet then applies to all units, whether they Ran before or after it was called, and what you rolled for the Run doesn't matter in the slightest, because 'Waaagh! movement' no longer exists. Which requires one house rule (taken directly from the Rulebook FAQ) and is a reasonable way to play it.

Both of these are valid ways to interpret the rule as it currently stands. Neither is any more 'correct' than the other, since either one requires house rules to actually work.

Actually, in our local group we do play with the run move counting as Waaagh1 on the turn that it is called. however, we let it be called any time inte shooting phase, and all units then have Fleet....but that is not what the rules say, and this brings up problems. We are always gettign new guys in, or guys that are stopping in as they travel, etc., and having to go over our "house rules" for Waagh1 is very annoying. I travel myself and run into it played differnt ways in different places. Some play strict RAW and some play RAI.

My point is that this is NOT a clear cut issue and GW needs to errata this so we all know how they really want it to work. that way, no matter where or when we play it stays the same, and we can plan accordingly. It is the same problem that they have with the Deffrolla and ramming... every group is choosing how they want to play it atm, because GW hasn't clarified it officially. So, we see alot of dice offs....

The sad thing is that GW just did an Ork 5th ed errata/FAQ last October, and they didn't even deal with these two very important issues. I don't canre how GW rules on either..I will still play my Orks, Eldar and DA... I just want them to make up their minds so that we can move on and just play the game.

Edited for spelling and grammar

Codex: Orks is in fact a 4e codex, hence whey there are some discrepencies with it. It...um...dur...did come out 18 months before the 5e rulebook after all. Hard to write 5e codex when 5e hasn't been finished being written yet. This is of course why sopme of thrules do not make sense in 5e context, so it is pointless to argue that they do(because they do not).

Here is your unofficial Waaagh! fix for 5e:

In way of fixing some of the more glaring issues not addressed in the Codex: Ork FAQ, I’ve began compiling a list of things that still need to be addressed, and have taken it upon myself to address the thing which people have the most issue with to begin with: the Waaagh! rule. I’ll likely address some unit entries too, but in such a way that point values are not mentioned(unless that is part of the error to begin with).

Fixes for the Waaagh! rule, and other Waaagh! rule-related things:

”Waaagh!

Orks live for the moment when they charge into battle, screaming “Waaagh!” at the top of their lungs. Once per game, at the beginning of the Shooting Phase, the Ork player can declare a Waaagh! This may not normally be declared on the first turn, as a proper Waaagh! needs some momentum behind it. For the duration of that turn, all friendly Ork Infantry units are treated as having the Fleet special rule(not Gretchin units, as they are far too weedy for a proper Waaagh!).

If a unit rolls a 1 when making their Run roll during a Waaagh!, the Orks start fighting before they get to the enemy. One model from that unit takes a single wound. Normal saving throws apply, as does the Feel No Pain special rule, if applicable. Note that the unit is still moved an inch, and may assault as normal if the enemy is within range.”

If that isn't clear enough for anybody, well, Ghazghkull isn't the only one missing a portion of his brain then. Note that I capitalized the term "Infantry" to be abundantly clear as to what unit type may make use of this rule, and I also referred to "fleet of foot" by its proper 5e terminology, that being "the Fleet special rule”. I even mentioned "Feel no Pain", just in case somebody hadn't thought of it yet(even though I know that some of you have).

As for Ghazghkull, replace the first sentence in the third paragraph under the "Prophet of the Waaagh!" Rule with the following:

"Furthermore, for the duration of the Waaagh! all Ork Infantry units automatically count as rolling a 6 for their Run movement(if they choose to Run that is)."

You will note that the Weirdboy psychic power description for a result of "Waaagh!" as written in the Ork codex doesn't need any fixing whatsoever. I really don't see how anybody, Ork player or otherwise, would have a problem with how any of this is written.

One final thing: Add an asterisk(*) at the end of the unit option for Nob Bikers, so it should look like this:

“- Nob Bikers*................+XX points per model”

Also, in the lower left corner of the unit entry box in the army list add the following post script:

“*Units upgraded to Nob Bikers lose the Waaagh! ability.”

Along with the FAQ entries that remove the Waaagh! ability from units that shouldn’t have it, that should cover everything regarding the Waaagh! rule.

insaniak wrote:

Nurglitch wrote: Since Squad A ran prior to the Waaagh! and hence the rest of the turn when Waaagh! takes effect, it does not have Fleet of Foot.

I have no idea how you reach that conclusion from the actual rules.

[sarcasm]That's ok people with that 3K posts don't have to provide facts and logic in the rules forum anymore.[/sarcasm]