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Regwon wrote:
This worked in 4th, but now with 'No Retreat' in 5th when they lose combat (and they will lose combat) they will end up getting wiped out anyway due to combat resolution. If they are on objectives then they will be sat there , not having any impact on the battle until something decides to assault them, at which point they will go away. You want to have things with ranged weapons on objectives, so they can still contribute. There are far better fearless troops choices to use for any role that you may want to press lesser demons into.

I got an idea from reading the BBB. If you summon them to be 2" away from you while your squad is in CC, can you still use their attacks while inflicting wounds on the unit in BtB contact?

No. Models can only attack if a member of their own squad is in base to base contact with an opponents model and they are withing 2" of the friendly model. It does not confer to other units. You can limit the number of models that can attack them (say if a CSM squad is basing most of the models and there is only room for two or three demons to get into B2B contact) but it is still giving away free wounds because any model that can attack them will and wil ldo better against them than they woudl against a power armored model, thus resulting in more kills for their side. Unless the unit you are charging is wearing 5+ armor(in which case you probobly didn't need help assualting anyway) the demons attacks will mostly bounce off anyway(average of 4's to hit, 4's to wound, and negated on a 3+ or 4+ against most MEQ opponents).

Summoned demons might be worth it if they were 6pts a model. At 13 pts they just don't do anything a basic 15pt csm cant do better. and you can't even buy them for body count ... You only get one extra body every 7.5 models vs CSM. 120 points can buy you 8 CSM or 9 generic demons(117). CSM win NO CONTEST.

Meph

Jihan wrote:

Elessar wrote:I like the list. It's certainly not cheesy. Also, you could robe up the Fallen as well, using DA Vets, and have an entirely robed army, even though its not pure Sons. Although...who's to say the Fallen there don't worship Tzeentch?

That's the idea. Although the last time I tried using DA vets took me ages, as sawing those metal guys in half took ages. Still worth a shot, and I can order the Cypher backpacks to give them a distinctive look.

I am very glad that you do not find it cheesy. Hopefully my opponents will also share your view.

Fallens can't have any icon of chaos, according to the scenario from the GW website, but apparently the lord or sorceror can, so I guess it is all right (I hope). Any Fallen Angels fluff-manics care to say a word or two?

The newer plastic ones are a delight to put together - really nice kit. The DA codex says that some of the fallen truly have fallen (no pun intended) under the thrall of the Chaos Gods, and do worship them now. Since they don't have ATSKNF, at the very least you'll need the Undivided Mark.

Is it purchasing the new Dark Angels codex then if I want to brush up on my Fallen fluff, or is there too little there?

I would use something like this (see bold)


HQ:
Chaos Lord, Terminator armour, Mark of Tzeentch, Personal Icon, Daemon Weapon - something.
Chaos Lord, Mark of Tzeentch, Personal Icon, Daemon Weapon - 150.

Elites:
Chaos Dreadnought, Extra DCCW, Heavy Flamer - 105.
Chaos Dreadnought, Extra DCCW, Heavy Flamer - 105.
Terminators x5, Mark of Tzeentch, autocannon, 2x chainfist - something

Troops:
Thousand Sons x8, Sorceror, Wind of Chaos, Meltabomb, Personal Icon, Chaos Rhino, Combi-Melta - 329.
Thousand Sons x8, Sorceror, Wind of Chaos, Meltabomb, Personal Icon, Chaos Rhino, Combi-Melta - 329.
Summoned Lesser Daemons x9 - 117.
Summoned Lesser Daemons x9 - 117.
Summoned Lesser Daemons x9 - 117.

Heavy Support:
Chaos Land Raider, Daemonic Possession - 240.

illuknisaa wrote:I would use something like this (see bold)


HQ:
Chaos Lord, Terminator armour, Mark of Tzeentch, Personal Icon, Daemon Weapon - something.
Chaos Lord, Mark of Tzeentch, Personal Icon, Daemon Weapon - 150.

Elites:
Chaos Dreadnought, Extra DCCW, Heavy Flamer - 105.
Chaos Dreadnought, Extra DCCW, Heavy Flamer - 105.
Terminators x5, Mark of Tzeentch, autocannon, 2x chainfist - something

Troops:
Thousand Sons x8, Sorceror, Wind of Chaos, Meltabomb, Personal Icon, Chaos Rhino, Combi-Melta - 329.
Thousand Sons x8, Sorceror, Wind of Chaos, Meltabomb, Personal Icon, Chaos Rhino, Combi-Melta - 329.
Summoned Lesser Daemons x9 - 117.
Summoned Lesser Daemons x9 - 117.
Summoned Lesser Daemons x9 - 117.

Heavy Support:
Chaos Land Raider, Daemonic Possession - 240.

Why would you use that? 6 terminators, even with 4+, will have to Deep Strike and be subject to a turn of fire. Although I can definitely see a CC focus, but could you explain your reasons and tactics?

looks kl

I have to admit I kinda liked the first list. Not the two chaos lords, though. I mean, in a Tzeench list? Two chaos sorcerers, now that would seem fine. A month ago we did have a nice thread on chaos marks and Tzeench for scorcerers came up second in my opinion (yes, Slaneesh comes first, of course). So I'd go for that.

The setup of the two dreads was also nice. Two that shoot at each other with frag missiles when rampaging are good. Lacks the cc awesomness of 2x DCCW, but provide long range anti vehicle shooting.

The landraiders... well, much better than adding a vindicator as others have recommended. Vehicles in chaos lists usually suck, because they are few and eat all the anti vehicle fire (which is why my tripple-vindicator-list sucks compared to the other possible choices). LRs are kinda immune to most anti vehicle fire, so they are an exception. But they really shine because of their assault ramps and this list lacks assault units.

I'd go and build a chaos'ish godzilla list, so get rid of the LRs and get Defilers. 5 or 6 close combat walkers are nice. Plus you can style them easily to match the Egyptian looks of the Thousand Sons.

Also, get rid of the Rhinos and at least one demon pack (they are still nice for capturing or delaying) and get yourself another 1k sons unit.

My version, which is a mix of playability (godzilla) and what I consider nice fluff (non-lash-sorcerers, Tzeench ones at that plus units that can be painted and modded easily to match (dreads and defilers are kinda walking sarcophagi):

2x Tzeench sorc with tons of magick
3x Dread with additional DCCW
3x 9+1 1k sons
3x defiler with +2 DCCW

The small list I threw together in Army Builder had about 1956 points, but you can swap a lot of things for demons.

Just my thoughts.
-Tierlieb

Tierlieb wrote:
2x Tzeench sorc with tons of magick
3x Dread with additional DCCW
3x 9+1 1k sons
3x defiler with +2 DCCW

Thanks for your thoughts Tierlieb. My most recent list dropped the daemons a few pages back. Are the sorcs Daemon Princes? I wonder as you mentioned a godzilla list, which I assume means lots of Monstrous Creatures as well as walkers.

Why get rid of the rhinos when Thousand Sons need mobility? Do you use a more sit-back-and-shoot tactic? Or is just to save points?

I always thought that triple vindicators are good choices, could you post a link so I may see your list or army reports?

Tierlieb wrote:
2x Tzeench sorc with tons of magick
3x Dread with additional DCCW
3x 9+1 1k sons
3x defiler with +2 DCCW

Jihan wrote:My most recent list dropped the daemons a few pages back.

I saw that. But I was presuming you'd like to use them since I thought you inherited them from your friend that quit the game. I figured the first list was build on the idea of using as much as possible from what you already got, not properly reading what you wrote in the intro paragraph. So you only got the 1000 Sons troops, right?
Anyway, I kinda like demons (1), albeit they do not have many uses.

Are the sorcs Daemon Princes? I wonder as you mentioned a godzilla list, which I assume means lots of Monstrous Creatures as well as walkers.

Nope, just the ordinary 100pts a piece variant. Basically, I thought that you already got two chaos lords and using them counts-as is not much of a problem. Since you can attach them to your troop choices, they are quite resistant to enemy fire, which is a plus in a 2000 pts game where DPs tend to die to long-range fire much faster than in smaller games. And imho, Scorceres belong in a Tzeench list ;-)
My liking of sorcerers stems from a discussion about using other setups than MoS+LoS on DPs: (2). I kinda like MoT, Warptime and Wind of Chaos.

But yes, for a Gozilla-style list two DP would be better. Sadly, you can either use them with lash (boring and not very Tzeench-y) or they need both wings and warptime to be viable, which makes them pretty expensive. But it would be effective. But that detracts even further away from the original army.

Why get rid of the rhinos when Thousand Sons need mobility? Do you use a more sit-back-and-shoot tactic? Or is just to save points?

Just saving points. My idea was just about what I think would "define" the list.
Imho you can start pretty close to the enemy, because you don't get shot at that much - cc dreads and defilers usually get the attention and they should. If they don't, just be happy and chaaaarge!
Now stand&shoot is pretty boring, I get that. So if you can free the points, go for it. The additional vehicles can make Vindicators a more viable choice - but imho only if you arm them to be annoying and that gets pretty expensive.

I always thought that triple vindicators are good choices, could you post a link so I may see your list or army reports?

They are good choices. I still play them (mostly because I hate drilling and pinning all those weapons on Obliterators). It's just that the other heavy support options are slightly better ;-)
For a Tzeench list, I mainly like the idea of animated automatons and Defilers fit that idea very well. Tanks are kinda boring in an army full of magicians. But besides that:
a) Defilers complement Dreads much better
b) Obliterators... well, they rule: Comparatively cheap, take cover as infantry, flexible use, flexible weapons.

Anyway, my latest army list can be found here (3) and the criticism of it was pretty valid I have to admit.

-Tierlieb

Edit: Fixed one level of quoting that wasn't necessary.

Ahh, thanks for the input, as well as a way to make my daemons not sit on the shelf.

3 defilers should scare most opponents the other way. Since by your list, I would be footslogging, would Bolt of Change be a viable choice then?

You must excuse my lack of experience with footslogging the sons, as I have only ran them in my first game back back in 3rd, and I stopped immediately.

I have to admit I have not much experience with that either.I just found that due to the whole objective taking going on in most 5th edition games I actually move my troops less than before. It seems to be much more about properly placing them in the beginning - on or close to the objectives, because that makes sure the opponent has to come for you.

But I keep forgetting the reason I went for DPs... and that was to have something interesting to do during the game. Especially since I recommended sticking the sorcerers in the 1k sons units which slows them down even more. And you're right, in that case something with a bit of reach would be a good idea. Sadly having a good anti-vehicle shot like that usually wastes the shots of the attached squad. I'd have gone for warptime and wind of chaos, because that combo is a turn-off for someone to come close and 1k sons with their hellfire rounds are really nice at range.

So on second thought, I'd go for DPs instead of sorcerers. Let's forget about this idea I have how Tzeench should be. A DP using MoT, WoC and WT is a much nicer option. And it fits much better with a Godzilla-style army.

But on the idea of having the 1k sons being transported around by Rhinos: It's that expensive, is it? Depending on the setup (extra armour or not) you can drop one of the Dreads or one of the Defilers. I'd say that those are more competitive, but that is a personal decision.

Perhaps people with a deeper understanding of tactics than me can make good use of that ;-)

-Tierlieb

I see. So would it then be the Monstrous Creatures and Walkers as a counterassault force then? Shoot them up, let the Sons take the charge, and then pile the rest in?

EDIT:

HQ:
Daemon Prince, Mark of Tzeentch, Wings, Warptime - 175.
Daemon Prince, Mark of Tzeentch, Wings, Warptime - 175.

Troops:
Thousand Sons x8, Sorceror, Bolt of Change, Squad Icon, Chaos Rhino, Combi-Melta - 319.
Thousand Sons x8, Sorceror, Bolt of Change, Squad Icon, Chaos Rhino, Combi-Melta - 319.
Thousand Sons x8, Sorceror, Bolt of Change, Squad Icon, Chaos Rhino, Combi-Melta - 319.
Summoned Lesser Daemons x9 - 117.
Summoned Lesser Daemons x9 - 117.

Heavy Support:
Chaos Predator, TL Lascannon Turret, Heavy Bolter Sponsons, Daemonic Possession - 155.
Chaos Predator, TL Lascannon Turret, Heavy Bolter Sponsons, Daemonic Possession - 155.
Chaos Vindicator, Daemonic Possession - 145.

Total: 1996 points, 47 models, 6 armour.

I hope this will be the final list. Thoughts?