Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Adults acting like children are the worst, kids are so much easier to deal with.

First thing I thought when reading is that your group is not looking after it's noobs, noobs should be paired off with "soft-touch" vets who are happy to play tutorial style games at a slow pace, the other way is too have them noob vs noob with a vet playing the ref+impartial advisor. It goes a huge long way to setting the tone of your clubs gaming so get together with your friendly gamers and ask them to share the load playing the new guys, most will be happy too I find it an honour at my place

We have a table that is always multiplayer every meetup, simple rule of fluff before power, helps if you have someone with an RPG GM background for this table. It's a nice get out clause for people who want to avoid games against certain opponents without causing drama.

Personally the club sounds like a nightmare, I don'y play with people who get arguementative and my group just tells people like that to leave. Rules desputes are solved by quick banter, if no agreement is reached quickly then roll a dice and add it to the list of "Club Clarifications" that need sorting out at the end of the night.

Personally I would walk and either setup my own club or find one that doesn't tolerate dickheads.

focusedfire wrote:Not going to give up on the new guys.

Don't give up on those new guys. The one thing I really suggest, is to vary your points you are playing, and play lower point games. Play games that lead up to other games i.e. set up for a mini-tournament at the end of the month of 1.25k-2k points, but play game the week before from 500-1.25k sides.

Playing lower point games make them quicker, it sounds like you are playing huge point games, which has a larger downtime for you and your opponent for movement so they are moving off. If you do have to take care of business, take care of it, you can quickly get back into it. Plus if they move away during your movement phase, well as other folks said, tell them you will continue your movement, and you will let them know when you are shooting at them

I'm going to have a sit down with him tommorrow and lay it on the line. Everything from concern to his downward spiral and person well-bring to how he is affecting some of us wishing to game a bit more casually.

How did that go?

Over 5 years, some people will move / have kids / have family issues / have job change / whatever. It's hard to predict, but that seems to be the pattern - if you start with 8, five years later, you'll be down to 4. So you'll need new blood if you want to keep a group going..

focusedfire wrote:I pointed out that in his codex it states Power of the machine spirit is BS2. He claims a phone conversation with a GW rep allows him to use the new SM rules for PotMS. He also claims that he gets the new stormshield rules. Very quickly got very argumentative.

I'm going to have a sit down with him tommorrow and lay it on the line. Everything from concern to his downward spiral and person well-bring to how he is affecting some of us wishing to game a bit more casually.

Good luck. Sometimes, you need a friend to give you a wake-up call and realize what is happening to yourself. If he's a good guy deep down, he'll respond.

As far as the rules issues, I'd just tell him that it's not fair to update the BT wargear in that fashion. Letting assault squads have a 3+ invul save for a few points (3? 5? I forget), termies with two heavy weapons, etc. is unbalancing. That's the bottom line. It doesn't 'make sense' that the same gear isn't the same for 2 armies, but it's how it was set up. If he pushes it, it might be worth creating a home-brew 'update' that uses the new rules from SM codex with new point values, but it might also result in eliminating Vet Skills, restricting squad sizes (no more 6-man las/plas) etc. At which point, he might as well play Black and White Marines.

BTW, if the BT guy really is such a big problem, you can always disinvite him from the group...

I'd print off the Black Templar FAQ and say, 'THIS is what Games Workshop says. I don't see an upgraded Power of the Machine Spirit nor 3+ Storm Shields. I do see a small and angry feret and your pants, however.' But I have this thing about threatening people in bizarre yet terrifying ways.

Edit: And also that bit of blerb, wherever it may be, that states you need your opponents permission to use the new rules/units from the Vanilla codex in a Chapter Codex.

First off, do everything in your power to keep the newer 'Nid player from getting scared off; he's definitely the individual out of the group whom you should be spending the most time with as he seems more interested in enjoying his gaming experience which is what the hobby is all about. I will try and give my best assessment as to how to handle the other offenders within your gaming group.

Player A (Templar)- You did the right thing in attempting to open a channel of communication. However, as he has apparently made no effort to improve his argumentative attitude, you are probably best served by simply telling him that you are not interested in playing him. If he asks why, you can state that his argumentative nature does not facilitate an enjoyable gaming experience. In relation to his 'interpretation' of the Templar ruling, he is simply wrong. Due to the fact that the Black Templar Codex is a stand alone, all rules pertinent to the Templar are present within the codex unless otherwise stated, like in the old Space Wolves Codex that references using Codex: Space MArines for certain rules. If he wants his 3+ Storm Shields and "better" PotMS, then he's going to have to sacrifice what makes the Templar the Templar at this juncture: his ability to take Vows, take huge crusader squads, 5 man squads with 2 special weapons, etc. He can't have his cake and eat it too. If he believes he is in the right and won't budge when you question him regarding it, make him point it out in the relevant codex or faq! It's not rules lawyering; if it's not there, it's a no-go.

Player B (Guard)- Take him aside and tell him that his excessive emotions are making it difficult for you to enjoy playing him. If you can explain that the games should not be taken personally and rather enjoyed and learned from, it will probably ease a great deal of the tension. His argumentative nature is more than likely stemming from the fact that he is desperate for wins, which can put both of you on a slippery slope, as if he sees that tweaking rules will win him games he will be more likely to do so with increasing tendency. It's important to play everything by the book with this player, as eventually the wins will come for him as he develops into a better general. He should not expect to win every game, but rather find satisfaction in becoming a more skilled player who plays for enjoyment rather than simply winning.

Player D (Space Wolves)- If he's playing fast and loose, simply slow him down. Look at the rolls and make him remove every dice that wasn't a success before going any further. Be prepared to do exactly the same thing, so there will be no accusations of a double standard. The more habitual you make this, the faster it will become ingrained in his (and your) playing and will fix the problem. As to his drinking, if he's coming in blitzed out of his skull, just tell him you aren't comfortable with an intoxicated person in the vicinity of the miniatures that you spent the time to paint, model, etc, and that you're certian he would feel the same way if the roles were reversed. I certainly would not want anyone blazed to be within 20 feet of my minis, as who knows what might happen?

Player E (Eldar) - If he's as seasoned as you say, the possibility exists that he is confusing various rules, but most older players (in my experience) have a pretty good grasp on the current rule-set, as they can can recall how the rules have morphed over the editions. If he is simply having a difficult time recalling the actual rule, tell him to bring all the necessary materials to the game, just like the Templar player. It will save you both a whole load of headaches in case of a dispute if you can just turn to "Page x" and whip out the actual ruling. Good generals don't need to bend the rules, they make the rules work for them.

In all the above cases, you simply need to ask yourself, "Do I enjoy spending my free time participating in a hobby that I enjoy with this person?" If the answer is 'no' because of the headaches and such presented by the player, you are best served by simply not playing with them. If you find that you do however find the answer to be 'yes', then it is worth your while to pursue playing with that individual. The rule of thumb is to have fun.

One thing that might be beneficial for the group is the living 40k document. Deciding to use some or all of the document can resolve some conflicts about "it shoudl be this way- no it should be that way". May be something to discuss with your group as a way to address some of the 5th edition and unaddressed codex changes.

http://www.dicelikethunder.com/files/Fluid40k_041709.pdf

It attempts to fix some of the things GW isn't interested in addressing, one of which is making storm shields(and almost all marine/imperial gear) work the same, but adjusting their point cost. etc.

This will not fix the player issues, but i think it does reduce some of the stress of the edition and codex changes by standardizing everything so there are no hard feelings or arguments about which gear a non-C:SM marine army uses.

I also have to chime in and say that MagicalMemories said it best. Don't be afraid to start a discussion of what you want from the game/time spent. Don't be afraid to call someone on something in an affirmative manner so that they know what they are doing is causing you to not enjoy the game. In the time before and after a game I often talk with the local players about what I want from the game and the types of things that i don't enjoy. One of them is power lists all the time. I buy pretty much every model/unit (and often multiples) for every army I play. I hate having models that can never be played effectivly because their rules arn't as efficient as other units in the army. When faced with competitive players all the time I was getting very upset because using my less effective models was an auto lose situation. Now I know to tell someone "lets both pull out our less uber lists and try something different." We don't do it all the time, but I enjoy all of my games more because I get what I want ocassionally and return the favor with games that they want ocassionally. I always play to win, but playing the same OTT power lists all the time gets a little wonky for me and once I voiced that opinion many of the players I play against were happy to tone it donw once in a while. In return I make sure to bring my best game when they are gettign ready for a tournament etc. to give them what they want out of the game.

Good luck with yoru group!

Meph

This is a major problem in a lot of game groups. Older players get set in their ways and run off new blood with their harshness and obsession with winning. They think this weeds out those without the "constitution" for competitive play, but in reality they are just slowly suffocating the game group by chasing people away from the hobby.

my advice is try another lgs may be a bit more of a journey but if theres better gamers there then do it

skullkandy wrote:This is a major problem in a lot of game groups. Older players get set in their ways and run off new blood with their harshness and obsession with winning. They think this weeds out those without the "constitution" for competitive play, but in reality they are just slowly suffocating the game group by chasing people away from the hobby.

I think you figure out what reality is, then post the opposite.

In my experience, it's mostly been the newer players who bring a WAAC attitude, and the more experienced players who still play to win, but don't try to abuse rules to do so.

Hi all.
In general the real problem is the appauling state of the 40k game system!
GW have just tried to maximise sales on a single faction (SMs ) to maximise profits .This has lead to some factions going unsuported ,and so have out of date codexes .(By 2 editions of the game, and no coherant and cohesive FAQs to bridge the massive gaps.)

My gameing group found that most new players of 40k were focusing on the end result.W/L/D/ Probably because of the heavy strategic bias and amount of investment required to field a 40k army.
(And not to mention the percived handicap of playing with an older out of date codex.)

Having left the 40k rule set behind , and prefering to use 'much more suitable'* FREE to download ,altenatives , (Stargrunt II, No limits, Chain Reaction 3 etc, ). We tend to find FAR less focus on the end result and far MORE emphasis on enjoyment of PLAYING!

*Our definition of 'more suitable' is more in game interaction with less rules. (And NO requirment to buy the latest GW minis to win.)

Its disheartening to know the GW brainwashing is working so well on some , they produce a lackluster ruleset with next to no support, and GW gamers think its other gamers fault NOT GWs !

The objective of the game may be to win , but the point of playing is to have fun.

Happy gaming,
Lanrak.

Wow, sounds like a very tough spot. I'm going to assume the inroads you made with Black Templar were based in rules alone, and deal with him.

I know this guy, because he used to be me, or I used to be him. I am fairly large (6'1") and I have a booming voice that can instantly quiet a roomful of children (although I wasn't a teacher when I was like BT). I am great at arguing people down- 20 years of playing in bands and dealing with drunken hecklers comes in handy too. It's not so much, I bet, that he HAS to WIN. It's that he HAS to be RIGHT. The difference can be subtle but it is critical when approaching this kind of personality.

"Gottaberight-is" was a term coined on a Dallas radio station called The Ticket, and I've found it's a good one to use to apply to this sort of mentality. It's not so much they are worried about being wrong, it's that they have a maniacal and unhealthy need to be RIGHT, because their entire worldview is centered around the fact that they CANNOT be wrong, EVER. They ALWAYS make the right decision. They ALWAYS said the right thing, and will warp, bend and break the truth in order to prove, to themselves if no one else, that their call was the CORRECT one. If they are found to be wrong, they will grow increasingly beligerent (to the point of violence), or possibly seize on another situation to attempt to make the person who "proved them wrong" look like a fool. This is done, I assume to discredit the person who broke their 100% correct streak (which is, of course, all in their head).

The problem with this kind of person, in terms of dealing with them, is that they cannot admit that their behavior is incorrect. At best you can hope for a, "Well, if everyone says I'm wrong, I must be wrong," kind of thing. Try and get the person to understand that their IDEAS and WHO THEY ARE are completely seperate, and that everyone makes mistakes. Everyone. Even the Budda ate too much pork.

If you side step around "proving" this guy wrong, i.e., "The group has decided that we are only honoring RAW and GW FAQ's, than you're giving him the out he needs: it's not their in black and white, so HE isn't wrong, the PAPER is wrong.

Good luck, and I hope this helps.