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yeah,
I'm not sure everyones properly read these rumors...
This sounds like its a good idea for the future of the hobby.

Extra profit for B+M independant stores.
Even more Extra Profit for B+M independant stores with a online presence.

And Less profit for online resellers... what benifit do these guys bring to the hobby? They don't invest in hobbists?
All they do is undercut B+M stores. ultimately leeching money out of GW hobbys...

Panic...

I have a feeling that this is going to unfairly punish small FLGSs that simply don't have the space to run demo-games/etc. Granted, we don't know the exact details of the ranking system, but I do suspect that lots of smaller stores will just stop selling GW products to avoid the crappy profit margins from being a lower tier.

At least the June price increase will allow them to sell off their old stock at 'sale' (ie. old retail) price before they stop selling GW stock.

I can't see how this helps the majority of B&M sellers though. At no point have i ever been to an Indie in the uk that had room for a gaming table. I'm not saying they don't exist, just that most i've seen are very small shops filled to the brim with as much diverse product as possible to stay afloat. Rent per square foot is just too high for businesses with such a small profit margin

I was talking with the owner of the FLGS here and this all makes sense. He was telling me that he wouldn't be able to stock GW in the future because of this. The tier basis defines profit margins for the lower volume stores. Essentially; if you don't sell enough GW stuff, they're raising the price-which in turn makes it even less profitable-which means retailers will put something different on the shelf's. Smaller communities like mine will suffer the most, bad move GW.

Leggy wrote:I can't see how this helps the majority of B&M sellers though. At no point have i ever been to an Indie in the uk that had room for a gaming table. I'm not saying they don't exist, just that most i've seen are very small shops filled to the brim with as much diverse product as possible to stay afloat. Rent per square foot is just too high for businesses with such a small profit margin

Maybe that's the idea. If they do thrive then that city/town is ripe pickings for a 'proper' Games Workshop store.

This would be a stupid move for the US. Most people here don't live anywhere near a store that sells GW product. Practically what it will do is price a lot of customers right out of the game.

yeah,
I guess i'm reading it wrong.
I think the plan is have a solid RRP. It just doesn't make sense to have other online stores under cutting you.

the next step is offer B+M stores a instantly higher grade/profit than interwebs resellers.

And then offer more bonuses to B+M with tables/demos.

Panic...

a couple of things.

stopping online discounters from selling gw products will not hurt the company, the customers who do not have a flgs can simply buy from gw's site which has the highest profit margins of any of their outlets.

second, anything that will help legit flgs is good for the hobby. online discounters don't run demo games for new customers, or host leagues and tournaments to promote the hobby. I must say i get a little peeved when i see people I know buy all their stuff online playing every friday night at the store!

third, if you don't have enough room for at least a demo table let alone some gaming tables and a paint station you probably aren't selling much gw product to begin with.
Most game stores problems aren't with a lack of ability to do the things GW wants but a lack of desire and effort. It amazes me what a difference getting off your butt to say hello to a customer can make

brockb1 wrote:Most game stores problems aren't with a lack of ability to do the things GW wants but a lack of desire and effort. It amazes me what a difference getting off your butt to say hello to a customer can make

(Emphasis mine)

What difference does it make? For me, diddly squat. I'm there to conduct a business transaction, nothing more. In fact, I'd prefer if the staff would take their eyes off me for a few minutes, it'd make me feel less like I'm under suspicion for theft. All that constant surveillance thing a lot of stores do just comes across as them not trusting me. And it's not like I need their help finding product either, that's what labeled shelves are for, the big sign saying "Wizards of the Coast" is a pretty dead giveaway.

Just playing devil's advocate here, but if I game in my basement, why should I pay more so that GW can prop up their own stores and their favored B&M stores that I don't play in? Isn't friendly basement gaming the "new" big thing that GW's promoting with Apoc? Why should I give two $hits about whether stores train new hobbyists if I only play within my circle of friends?

Another point -- the online store I used years ago shut down after GW first started messing with online retailers. Thing was, he WAS a B&M. I know where you're coming from, but in that case GW didn't help his business, they hurt it. This is all about GW and not the FLGS.

If you ask me, I don't see how miniatures wargaming can ever become the growth business that GW thinks it is. In an age of instant gratification, too many potential customers just don't have the attention span the hobby requires. GW would probably be fine as a profitable little private company. But as a public company, I just dunno how they'll be able to crank out the double-digit yearly growth over the long term that investors really look for. Good luck to them, though.

I share the sentiments of some of the posters here - the only way to get new players and keep people interested is to have FLGS still around.

Online stores are great, especially when you buy in bulk - but as has been said is like driving a stake through struggling FLGS.

Personally I don't like using the GW store - I did recently to get some psykers for PBS - as it is more expensive than other online stores and FLGS; and is very non user friendly. Anyhow as I'm still a sucker for certain direct order models I'll undoubtedly be back there soon enough!

The GW store I do go to is the one on Oxford Street in London. For some reason I feel very intimidated when I go there - mobbed by GW staff ( I know it's their job to get me to buy some more stuff but still...). I think if they toned down the aggressive selling, I'd pretty much forget about online stores for gaming/hobby tidbits like paints etc.

This isn't going to hurt the biggest online retailers.

I am guessing that thier volume will make up for other shortfalls in the tier system and thier volume profits aren't going to offset any costs associated with B&M store frontage.

GW would have to almost go to full retail price to an online seller before it would offset the costs of "Dead table space".

Cause that is what GW is asking stores to have. Dead table space. 20+ square feet to run some demos where you can't have any other potentially selling product....just an empty table that will be used for a few hours on the weeked and maybe a few hours on a weekday night. Woe is the store that decides that it needs -multiple- spaces for tables.

My FLGS is a book store with the spacious basement as a gaming area. Money's tight and they generally have 1, maybe 2 people working at a time. They can't have their employee downstairs and running a demo game and leave the upstairs unmanned. This plan sounds pretty darn unfair to them that they may have to start paying more for the same product. And this sounds quasi-legal at best.

Polonius wrote:I have a stupid question: What's to stop the online retailers from meeting the requirements for Tier 1 status? All it takes is one such retailer, and there will still be grist for the mill. I thought the Warstore, for example, had a full gaming store.

Unless there's some clause in the new retail contracts prohibiting any sort of mail order (online, phone, etc), than the status quo will be maintained, it'll just be far more diffuclt for a new store to enter.

Another stupid question: won't this make it harder to actually stock GW product as a full gaming store? If you have to jump through hoops to get the full discount, won't the smart stores just finally stop stocking the stuff? I mean, maybe GW thinks that chocking off product to stores that don't support the product is a good idea, and it might be, but I think it's going to be a great barrier of entry for new physical shops.

#2) It would make it harder for marginal gaming stores. The GW Rogue Trader in my home town is actually a video rental store, with a bunch of (infrequently updated) racks of Catachans and Dark Eldar in the back. Stores like that would have trouble. It would be harder and less convenient to get models - on the other hand more sales would go to the more complete gaming store a half hour away.

#1) Simple enough really, on the 24 item list have items like:

Has an online store: -25 points
Carries WM/Hordes: -10 points
etc.

I'm not sure how that would interact with local laws of course.

There's some info missing -- what is the actual cost difference between tiers 1-4 and the current cost? The orignal post doesn't really cover this.

If Tier 1 is the current wholesale cost and it just gets worse from there then this plan sounds like all sorts of fail.

But if Tier 1 or even 2 is better then current and 3 or 4 is near the current cost, then this isn't all doom and gloom.

Also, this is just UK talk at the moment right? They have a completely different model then the US, relying much more heavily on their own storefronts. It may not even be a thing in North America or APAC.

I won't comment on tier pricing because it could get people fired. However, if you seriously think a new pricing scheme gives most non-GW retailers a huge discount, you're living in your own world.
Do you seriously think with prices going up that wholesale prices would mostly go down?

Look, they've been aware of places like battlewagon bitz, the warstore, etc for a long, long time. No one in their right mind buys from the US online store. It's service is inferior to other competing places like the warstore, and the prices definitely don't match up. For the longest time, they've sought ways to equalize that barrier.
Regardless of whether it happens this year or not, they're looking for ways to make sales more direct GW centric.

In essence the strategy is to slowly cut out the middleman. If you're a customer, you've probably gotten used to higher prices over time. However, GW's not stupid, they know people look for discounts, especially as they've continued to raise prices.

They've also learned to let changes happen gradually. In time, people forget how things were and adjust, as long as it's not too sudden. For instance, the slow changing and removal of blisters.

All in all, it's straight business. If you seriously think their motivation is to help brick and mortar stores you're seriously mistaken.

Oh, and while I"m at it, it's definitely an intelligent move by the company, if I was a business man, I'd plan and do the exact same thing/

Polonius wrote:What's to stop the online retailers from meeting the requirements for Tier 1 status?

I thought the Warstore, for example, had a full gaming store.

If you have to jump through hoops to get the full discount, won't the smart stores just finally stop stocking the stuff?

Nothing. What GW is doing is trying to forced franchise the GW store "experience" via their tiering discount system.

Neal does.

At some point, yes, those stores will stop. And that's also part of the objective, to drive out the stores which effectively cost GW money to service due to low sales. Or at least to make them pay for their own upkeep costs via reduced margins.

In the regular world, volume discounts with marketing credits are a way of life, so I don't see how this is different. GW tiers the discount to volume and factors in marketing as well. And, as most stores are weak from a legal POV, GW will throw in some anti-competitive / non-compete clauses for good measure.
____

gorgon wrote:if I game in my basement, why should I pay more so that GW can prop up their own stores and their favored B&M stores that I don't play in?

This is all about GW and not the FLGS.

Really? All about GW? You don't say...

But your first point is a good one. If you don't have need of a game store, then ostensibly supporting stores doesn't make sense. Veteran gamers who know what they want *should* get a break.
____

scuddman wrote:All in all, it's straight business. If you seriously think their motivation is to help brick and mortar stores you're seriously mistaken.

Oh, and while I"m at it, it's definitely an intelligent move by the company, if I was a business man, I'd plan and do the exact same thing/

Exactly. It's business. Hard-nosed business.

Tiered pricing for distributors and resellers is an AGE old practice by manufacturers. I'm a journalist covering the pro audio industry and I'd say that 90% of suppliers operate such a system. The more of their gear you sell and the better you support it, the better your price and margins from the supplier.

Yes, there are worse things about. If you're a metal company and you manage to get into home depot, home depot makes you sign an agreement saying that you won't sell to Lowes. If you're a supplier, signing that contract REALLY sucks, because you have to pick one company or another to retail your stuff. In a perfect world you'd sign both places and move more inventory...but it doesn't work that way.

The other thing too is retail isn't afraid to screw you over anyways. Home depot isnt afraid to copy what you do and then make a generic version at a lower price, deliberately undercutting you...then eventually removing you from competition completely.

Gee...I make it sound like these things have happened to me or something...oh wait...

I think the important thing to realize is that GW sell a product that, unlike many other products, is ment to be used in interaction with other human beings in person, requiring a time and space investment.

Buying movies and video games on the cheap is fine because you don't need anything other than your tv/console/pc and your home which you already have. Buying form an online retailer isn't really any different from a local one, barring support for actual local business' rather than major oulets and chains.

GW products really need those gathering places with tables so making it easier for such business' to sell their products whilst reducing margins for stores which do nothing for the hobby is a good thing. The end result is, hopefully, more sales to the B&M stores via reduction of sales from online retailers which in turn increases foot traffic to said store which results in more players meeting and thus more games to be played.

Also I sure hope that made sense. Basically I'm just saying I'm all for supporting your FLGS.

brockb1 wrote:
stopping online discounters from selling gw products will not hurt the company, the customers who do not have a flgs can simply buy from gw's site which has the highest profit margins of any of their outlets.

Uh huh. Yeah right. Who in their right mind is going to buy from GW direct if they cut off the discount dealer? I'll go to ebay LONG before GW direct and outrageous prices and brutal shipping costs.

second, anything that will help legit flgs is good for the hobby. online discounters don't run demo games for new customers, or host leagues and tournaments to promote the hobby. I must say i get a little peeved when i see people I know buy all their stuff online playing every friday night at the store!

I dont. Not everyone wants to pay outrageous prices.

third, if you don't have enough room for at least a demo table let alone some gaming tables and a paint station you probably aren't selling much gw product to begin with.
Most game stores problems aren't with a lack of ability to do the things GW wants but a lack of desire and effort. It amazes me what a difference getting off your butt to say hello to a customer can make

What GW wants and what GW does are too different things.

Its amazing how being pounced on at a GW store drives a person right out the door after a hard sell approach....

I can certainly see the merit of wanting stores to promote their product, have demo games and whatnot, but FLGS have to sell other products as well, and you just know how difficult it'll be to get a Rating 1. GW will no doubt use anything they can to dip even good stores to a Rating 2.

And yes, it's also a cynical attempt to kill online retailers. This is especially ironic since the redesigned GW website is more store than official website - even their site-search function says 'Search Products' rather than 'Search Website'.

It looks to me like the stores who are going to be receiving the biggest discounts will also carry the biggest overhead.

The single guy working out of a storage space or his garage has almost zero overhead, and will consequently have an adjusted profit margin.

I am happy for the owner of my FLGS who has worked hard to get tables in his store, host tournaments and encourage new players.

Wayfarer wrote:I think the important thing to realize is that GW sell a product that, unlike many other products, is ment to be used in interaction with other human beings in person, requiring a time and space investment.

Also I sure hope that made sense. Basically I'm just saying I'm all for supporting your FLGS.

I'm not anymore, for supporting FLGS.

Once upon a time there wasnt places to play, or interact. And yet we did in each others basement, and you know what? You still can.

I dont need a store. never again, so I dont see why I should pay more for other people playing in a store.

As already pointed it will depend on the type of store and how draconian the new tier rating system will be.

If we are talking about promoting GW´s stuff, demo games and such an inner city one with space at a premium will probably limit GW´s products or stop carrying all together while the strip mall one with more floor space will probably adjust.

That is of course if GW doesn´t add nice clauses about not carrying competitor´s stock and such, in that case quite a few stores will be shafted.

But I have already seen GW´s going postal on Spain´s FLGS a few years ago when they opened their first stores in Madrid and Barcelona, so nothing new under the sun.

M.

I see a couple of things coming from all this. GW stores will either arbitrarily or by virtue of such strict requirements be the only store to be considered tier one (with few exceptions). If GW tries to use this any sort of way to market "recommended" stores, you can bet irregardless of quality of support any GW store will be marked as a top tier store.

I imagine tier one, 16 out of 16pt, stores will have to have such a high degree of support of GW products that they throw out any other product made by other companies, or by virtue of dedicating so much of their time to support GW will effectively be a GW only store. This will effectively cripple FLGS' main advantage over GW stores, where FLGS' diversity of product offering. This means even if GW isn't putting anything good out the FLGS can still make a profit on other non-GW products. I see this as GW's attempt to make FLGS more dependent on them.

I see this as much of an attempt to destroy online retailers and the competition of FLGS. This will ultimately hurt the majority of FLGS.

This type of tiered pricing only works if it punishes the lowest tier to push them toward trying to achieve a higher tier. For GW to maintain its profit level it means to support the higher tiers having a higher discount the lower tiers have to pay more. If the highest tier is substantial enough to actually make it worth the FLGS while the lowest tiered stores will have even smaller margins than they currently do.

A tiered system like this has two ways it will fail. First its dependent on an ever increasing number of customers, that increases revenue at a rate at least equal to the discount. If that growth rate stagnates, due to saturation for example; the benefits of top tiered will decrease and the burden of low tiered will increase. That decreases the effectiveness of the system and FLGS will move away from GW products (maybe not entirely but to some degree).

The other way it can fail is if it is too successful. If every store achieves top tiered status then GW's rate of return is a reduced margin and becomes dependent on volume. If too many stores achieve this status their won't be enough lower tiered stores to support the higher tiered discounts and GW's demand for revenue growth. The system breaks down at this point because GW will be forced to "raise the standards" changing the rules to force some stores into lower tiers or simply reduce some of the benefits of being a top tiered store.

Polonius wrote:
Another stupid question: won't this make it harder to actually stock GW product as a full gaming store? If you have to jump through hoops to get the full discount, won't the smart stores just finally stop stocking the stuff?

It's a sad fact that any gamestore (in the US at least) who doesn't sell GW doesn't succeed. GW is the bread and butter of the US game industry. An independent can stock as many different systems as they like, and all added together the revenue won't equal what they make off GW alone. I even know of several comic book stores who had to stock GW to stay in business, and not one even had a table to play on. GW = revenue and they know it.

Not so!

I know of a couple of card-only shops within 15 minutes of where I live, and they're still hanging in there.

Not a bit of GW in either shop.

Pokemon, Yugio and Magic pay the rent.

One of the FLGS in my area doesn't stock GW, it makes it's money on card games. (I realise that it isn't in the US).