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Golga wrote:

Scott-S6 wrote:
T5 is a huge boost. Not being insta-killed by powerfists makes them much more survivable and makes it much more likely that they can win combat. As for their leadership, lets not forget that they now have stubborn. Add a priest to the unit and you have one of the few things in the guard codex that can reliably fight an enemy off an objective.
Fail alert. Priest are almost useless in ogryn squads. They receive no bonuses from righteous furry

All they need is the leadership.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Nurgleboy77 wrote:So...two people who haven't played with them (and one who doesn't even own the codex) say they are useless? That's enough for me then...wait what?!

You know who I am, and most on this site knows my experience with Guard. And that's not me waving it around to impress you, that's simply stating fact.

******snip*********

And while I don't own the physical Codex, I certainly have a copy.

i thought from your avatar you were the local fishing expert, with apparently a side job as a bucaneer, lol. I agree on the Ogryn. They were a overpriced at 25pts in the previous codex and GW has continued that fine tradition in the 5th edition codex. hbmc, when is your review going up?

Ogryn are overpriced at 40points.....

As I stated in my review, perhaps not explicitly, Ogryn are built in every way like a dedicated assault unit: no ranged shooting, found as an elites choice, and some measure of combat prowess. The problem is that absent power weapons, Ogryn simply don't do enough damage to dedicated assault units of similar point values to reliably win combats, and while they can slap tactical squads and ork boys around, I expect more from a pure Hand to Hand squad.

Every unit in the game can be rated based on three things:
1) What is the unit good at?
2) How good is at those things?
3) How useful is being good at those things to the army as a whole?

Ogryn are good at assault, but not very good, and the IG don't need assault troops. You can get more specific, and find out that Ogryn are good against light infantry in combat, are actually pretty decent at it, but the IG really, really don't need help there.

Why don't the IG need assault elements? Because 5th edition prevents cascading combats through consolidation. The Damage an Ogryn squad can do charging an ork squad is almost the same as that caused by a 50pt PCS with four flamers....

I think the major thing people forget is that Ogryns are 40pts. Can they do damage? Yes! Admittedly, they can do damage, but so can a single Guardsmen. It's comparative. Nobody is afraid of a single Guardsmen because he is only worth 5pts and brings about that to the table. An Ogryn is 40pts and brings about 15-25pts to the table. It is a matter of efficiency. So will say "nobody is forcing you to take them," which is true, but that is a poor excuse for a unit that is in the Codex, is wanted to be used by players, but is, points wise, unusable.

Guard need an assault unit that can scare off other assault units. Guard does very well at tying up units already with less points, remember, you can get 26-80 Guardsmen for the same price as 3-10 Ogryns (my figures earlier were off the cuff liberal numbers, Ogryns are actually worse than that). Sacrafice a couple of squads to a fat mob of Orks and you'll keep them tied up for a couple turns, Ogryns would need two to four times that in points to do the same thing. Then, your Guardsmen can also fight at range, have better Ld, more options and can be outfitted for ranged anti-tank, heavy infantry, light armor, heavy armor, light infantry, and even anti-assault units. Ogryns have no options, do all their work in assault, and can't move quickly around the battlefield except in the Imperial Guard's weakest and lightest armed tank. Even then, it is only a basic transport, no fast , no special abilities (amphibious, but when was the last time that has been important in a tournament?), even their weapons load-out it paltry, but not ineffectual.

There just isn't any benefit to Ogryns. Can't go in a Valkyrie, the only vehicle that would bring them closer to useful. A stiff unit, singularly rolled, poor at what they are supposed to do (if you're an assault unit and your only end effect is just holding your opponent at bay, you're not an assault unit, you're a brick), and far over priced, even if they could do it decently.

First off, I don't use Ogryns but that still doesn't mean i cannot see the worth of them.
If you take the basic unit of Ogryns for 130 points, they are toughness 5 so very little will damage them on the way over, if you buy them one of the best transports in the game IMHO the Chimera you can zip them over sharp-ish to act as a suicide squad to do as much damage as they can.
Or even better minus the Chimera, have them in the gun line waiting to counter charge as you can no longer consolidate into combat, even if they get wiped out you receive another turn of shooting, now with orders like 'Bring It Down' and 'First Rank Second Rank' that could be quite important and deadly.
It really is a clash of opinions but I think there are more outrageous things in the codex than this.

The OC-D

theocd wrote:First off, I don't use Ogryns but that still doesn't mean i cannot see the worth of them.
If you take the basic unit of Ogryns for 130 points, they are toughness 5 so very little will damage them on the way over, if you buy them one of the best transports in the game IMHO the Chimera you can zip them over sharp-ish to act as a suicide squad to do as much damage as they can.
Or even better minus the Chimera, have them in the gun line waiting to counter charge as you can no longer consolidate into combat, even if they get wiped out you receive another turn of shooting, now with orders like 'Bring It Down' and 'First Rank Second Rank' that could be quite important and deadly.
It really is a clash of opinions but I think there are more outrageous things in the codex than this.

The OC-D

Here's the thing: everything you described can be done just as well by cheaper elements in the list. Those 130pts could by a Penal Legion squad (for tying up enemy units) and a four flamer PCS (to really, really hurt any unit that gets too close). Those are both troops choices that can do more than just eat bullets and die.

But they don't have the survivability factor of the Ogryns. One well aimed Cannon shell and your Platoon command is gone and has robbed you of an order a turn. Conscripts in my opinion don't have much use at all.

The OC-D

@ Theo : Yeah, I would much rather buy equal points of Conscripts than Ogryns, they would still be more useful. Again, if Ogryns were free, they would be great! But you HAVE to consider their points value. There is no way Ogryns could just mosey on over to an enemy and survive, unless they get completely ignored, which if your opponent knows anything about Ogryns, they very well just might because Ogryns assaulting anything is a waste of points, anything of equal value will just roll them over in under two turns. I suppose this is where Victory Points days would be more relevant than Kill Points....

Scott-S6 wrote:

Golga wrote:

Scott-S6 wrote:
T5 is a huge boost. Not being insta-killed by powerfists makes them much more survivable and makes it much more likely that they can win combat. As for their leadership, lets not forget that they now have stubborn. Add a priest to the unit and you have one of the few things in the guard codex that can reliably fight an enemy off an objective.
Fail alert. Priest are almost useless in ogryn squads. They receive no bonuses from righteous furry

All they need is the leadership.

Thanks for changing my qoute around. Hmm why spend more points on something they already have. Does not the bone head also have a leadership of 7?

Skinnattittar wrote:I think the major thing people forget is that Ogryns are 40pts.

I don't think anybody is liable to forget the points cost of the Ogryns.

Even at 20 points each Ogryns would be a tough sell. They'd be undercosted for their statline, but their offensive power would still be low.

Aggi, my purpose there was to remind people that, yes, Ogryns can kill, but they do so at 40pts. 40pts of Guardsmen is 8 models, 8 wounds, 8 lasguns, 8-16 S3 shots at 12-24". Just because you remove fifteen models of Guardsmen where you only removed three Ogryns, doesn't mean Ogryns are better. You paid less for those fifteen Guardsmen than you did for TWO Ogryns.

The boost to T5 is fantastic, and something they really needed.

When they were 25 points!

Codex Design 101 - If a unit is underpowered for its cost you either up-power it to make it worth its cost, or reduce its cost to better represent its power (or lack thereof in some cases). What you don't do is up-power it and increase its cost, as that cancels out it being up-powered.

The current Ogryn would be pretty good as a holding/delaying unit at 25 points. At 40 points each... and Ld6? I'll take GK Terminators in their place. Sv2+ and Fearless (and WS5 S6 I4 power weapons) beat Ogryn hands down.

H.B.M.C. wrote:The boost to T5 is fantastic, and something they really needed.

When they were 25 points!

Codex Design 101 - If a unit is underpowered for its cost you either up-power it to make it worth its cost, or reduce its cost to better represent its power (or lack thereof in some cases). What you don't do is up-power it and increase its cost, as that cancels out it being up-powered.

The current Ogryn would be pretty good as a holding/delaying unit at 25 points. At 40 points each... and Ld6? I'll take GK Terminators in their place. Sv2+ and Fearless (and WS5 S6 I4 power weapons) beat Ogryn hands down.

It's not the only time they did that. They fixed hull lascannons with Lumbering Behemoth, and than jacked the cost up. They upgunned the exterminator, and increased it's cost by 35pts(!) fully loaded. And of course the poor stormtroopers got it worse than anyone.

All in all, the IG Codex is a damn shoddy piece of work from a writer whose motivation is either unparalleled malice or unprecedented incompetence. Frankly, I wouldn't be happy with the book even if Robin Cruddace issued a formal apology and flagellated himself in penance.

There is no excuse for a Codex with internal balance issues this severe.

After I raged internally a bit about the codex, I did notice plenty of good points. The main backbone of the IG will be in its infantry, they are cheap, okay, orders help, lack of leadership will be a major problem, but we'll see, the Valkyrie looks pretty good (not really sure yet, but it looks usable), Vets are good, Advisors seem useful, Ratlings might actually see the table (doubtful, but possible), I don't think Strommeis are SO horrible, they are carrying AP3 weapons, Techpriest looks fixed, Squadrons and Lumbering Behemoth are great (I don't see the Russes as being overpriced on the whole), and a lot of little points look good too. What really failed is that everything else was rather a let down. Ogryns, a much awaited fix was completely forgotten, Ratlings weren't actually made highly valuable compared to Special Weapons Squads with Sniper Rifles, Command Squads were bent over a desk and given the ol' one-two in the back door, Commissars were given a little nudge on the chin before being tossed out the door and away from units that actually NEED them (seriously, if you're going to list them for all the entries available, you could price them to fit their units!), and generally all the other points that needed fixing were either ignored to repaired improperly. I think Aggi put it best ... the IG Codex is a [...] piece of work from a writer whose motivation is either unparalleled malice or unprecedented incompetence."

Well, I have no issues so far with the codex in general. There are certainly some over-priced and under-powered units, but that's true of lots of armies. Personally, I think the number of high-end meta-game lists that the guard are fully capable of dealing with points, at the very least, to a decent codex, even if the parts that are good don't suit the wants of the long-time guard players out there (of who's illustrious number I am sadly not a member).

The Ogryn really are bad though. HBMC's comparison to the cost of GK Terminators is spot on. Obviously those are from a different, and older, codex, but you can't even really compare the on-table effectiveness. Especially when the GKs can go in a Valkyrie and Ogryn can't.

Ogryn = epic fail

H.B.M.C. wrote:I'll take GK Terminators in their place. Sv2+ and Fearless (and WS5 S6 I4 power weapons) beat Ogryn hands down.

When GKT are twice their points (or more) and can no longer be allied in their next codex, I am blaming you for mentioning this tactic so often a dev finally noticed it!

temprus wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:I'll take GK Terminators in their place. Sv2+ and Fearless (and WS5 S6 I4 power weapons) beat Ogryn hands down.

When GKT are twice their points (or more) and can no longer be allied in their next codex, I am blaming you for mentioning this tactic so often a dev finally noticed it!

Wait 'til GW realises you can stick 6 of them in a Vendetta, or give them F-Charge thanks to Straken!

Agamemnon2 wrote:All in all, the IG Codex is a damn shoddy piece of work from a writer whose motivation is either unparalleled malice or unprecedented incompetence. Frankly, I wouldn't be happy with the book even if Robin Cruddace issued a formal apology and flagellated himself in penance.

I don't want to go too far into this topic as I will be covering it in my review, but there's nothing inherently 'wrong' with the new Guard Codex when you look at it in a vacuum. It is like every other GW Codex - a host of units with a few gems and a few utter duds. The problem comes when you take it out of that vacuum and start comparing it not just to the last Guard Codex, but to Codices in general. This Codex changed just about everything. Not in a power sense, it just changed the rules for virtually every unit (if not every unit) in the Guard army. And it did so for seemingly no other reason than just to change them.

I mean, a Marine Tactical Squad changed in its options (free heavy weapons, and requiring an arbitrary figure of 10-men to get a heavy weapon), but the squad itself didn't really change. A Dev Squad still gets 4 Heavy Weapons. They didn't change wounds, or get an order system. A Chaos Land Raider in the current 'Codex' is still a Land Raider. A Rhino changed points, but it's still a Rhino. Not so with Guard. Everything changed, and I can't really fathom why, 'least, not until I have the actual book in my hands and a weekend to spend pouring over it in great detail.

I think Robin 'Arby' Cruddace isn't filled with unparalleled malice, and I doubt his incompetence (of which there is obviously some - how else do you explain 40 point Ogryn, 16 point Storm Troopers and Demolishers that cost as much as a Land Raider) could be considered "unprecedented" either. I just think that, maybe, this is his first Codex, so rather than trying to change the things that needed changing and getting whinged at by some groups, he just decided to change everything, even the things that didn't need changing or hadn't changed for the whole 3rd/4th/5th edition, and then mark it down as a big 'shakeup'.

Arby represents Tzeentch to me at the moment - Change for the Change God - or, really, change for the sake of change. Pendulum game design is one thing - the current Marine Codex did that with a kind of bold-faced bravado that I found refreshingly honest, and I love that Codex - but this Guard Codex just... just took it too far.

I'll leave it at that and explore this further when I get around to writing my review... whenever that happens... damned UK postal service.

And yeah, that - above - is me not getting 'too far into it'. @ myself.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

temprus wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:I'll take GK Terminators in their place. Sv2+ and Fearless (and WS5 S6 I4 power weapons) beat Ogryn hands down.

When GKT are twice their points (or more) and can no longer be allied in their next codex, I am blaming you for mentioning this tactic so often a dev finally noticed it!

Wait 'til GW realises you can stick 6 of them in a Vendetta, or give them F-Charge thanks to Straken!

I vote for both, and I'm busily trying to get someone at my local store to do it. (my budget won't stretch to guard anytime soon sadly). It's little gems like this that make even mixed review codex give me a warm fuzzy feeling.

Straken and 50 Hormagaunts in a doubles likst anyone? Mmmm ... killy.

But I digress. I can see why long time Guard players dislike the major changes though. That doesn't matter to me so much, which, I suppose, frees me up to gleefuly go easter egg hunting.

I found another misprint.

Deathstrike radius should be D3+3', not D3+3".

Skinnattittar:

Face it you are a power gamer that had a couple nice tricks and with the advent of a new Codex you are lost now. I have heard countless people moan and complain when a new Codex comes out, it's never as good as the previous edition or such-and-such unit is now nerfed. Hey genius, they change up the rules sets and Codices to remake the game and keep it interesting. You know develop new tactics and the like. Don't be so shallow and just face that you have a new army to play test and move on with life. If you want a really hard time in a game try playing straight Daemonhunters for a change. Every army in winnable, it is up to you to figure out how (remember this is supossed to be the fun part).

lalabox:

Why would a Deathstrike have a radius of D3 + 3 FEET? I think that D3 + 3" is correct.

Jpepper4451 wrote:Face it you are a power gamer that had a couple nice tricks and with the advent of a new Codex you are lost now. I have heard countless people moan and complain when a new Codex comes out, it's never as good as the previous edition or such-and-such unit is now nerfed. Hey genius, they change up the rules sets and Codices to remake the game and keep it interesting. You know develop new tactics and the like. Don't be so shallow and just face that you have a new army to play test and move on with life. If you want a really hard time in a game try playing straight Daemonhunters for a change. Every army in winnable, it is up to you to figure out how (remember this is supossed to be the fun part).

First off, I have never relied on a list to win, I have actually user random list generations to play, just for fun, and have won. I have been playing Guard for over four main rulebook editions and three Guard editions, believe me, I'm used to change. Second, I used my old list from the week before with the new codex, only dropping a platoon and adding two Vet squads. Wrecked the Chaos player up and down the board, played almost EXACTLY the same. Did you read this whole thread? The only complains most of the people here have had is that the new codex fell flat on its butt to solve old problems. Not that the Guard are now "unplayable." I think you are the only person to insinuate that.

Ogryns are the central issue here, a unit nobody ever took because how terrible they were costed. In the new Codex, only one of their issues was addressed, then everything else was given a boot to the noggin, for no particular reason! Then they increased the points! So a unit nobody took before will probably continue to not be taken (in lists designed to be competitive).

Jpepper4451 wrote:Why would a Deathstrike have a radius of D3 + 3 FEET? I think that D3 + 3" is correct

Because the Deathstrike is an anti-Titan ICBM launcher and should be an Apoc unit, not a regular 40K unit. But the fact that you had to ask that question shows alot about how much you know.

Jpepper4451 wrote:Face it you are a power gamer that had a couple nice tricks and with the advent of a new Codex you are lost now.

Oh I look forward to your contribution to my review thread. Should be good for a laugh or three.

HBMC, send me a PM when you post that, I look forward to reading it and probably objecting to some points, because I hate you oh so very much.

No smiley face... you weren't kidding... :(

H.B.M.C. wrote:No smiley face... you weren't kidding... :(

-beats with grognards-

Jpepper4451 wrote:lalabox:

Why would a Deathstrike have a radius of D3 + 3 FEET? I think that D3 + 3" is correct.

Because it would be funny to nuke a whole table from 25 metres away? 0_o

I don't need a reason.