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Kasrkinlegion wrote:If you really want to talk about rules, there are no rules for how to base a model any more. Technically I could put my Valkyrie on a flat base that's 24" in diameter. Then I could plop it down on the table and contest everything.

Never says you have to put the model on a flying base...

You really think logic like this is how the game is supposed to be played?

Actually you have to model your models on the bases they are supplied with.

You know what I stand corrected... I never saw that page 3 rule. As a matter of fact someone had told me when 5ed came out that they completely discounted base size and I never bothered to look it up myself.

That changes everything... It does say your opponent can agree if you have your models mounted on a different base... Since those new flying bases utterly sucked, my Valks aren't on them...

I guess I have a lot of begging to do...

I guess it also means you can never disembark from a Valk unless it's moved more than 12" since it's always more than 2" from the table so you always have to deep strike, but you can't unless you've moved flat out. Gotta love these asinine rules...

There are no asinine rules, only asinine posts, (like the one on the previous page that says you can't contest because the base is too high.) We can do without your nonsense thank you.

Well, Kasrkinlegion, it looks like willydstyle saved me the trouble of explaining one more reason why Valks simply won't cut it [when compared against Penal Legionaires]. I wasn't even aware that they were more than 3" above the table when mounted on their bases -- now that I am, I must say I'm inclined to agree with the "not-contesting" camp.

They may be proof to small arms that will cut through Penal Legionaires, but the Legionaires will prove more resilient against high-strength low-AP anti-tank weapons that will otherwise pop AV 12.

In addition, the Rough-Riders versus Legionaires situation is not as cut-and-dry in favor of the former as you may think. The RRs are better in assault, yes, but only during the first round of combat. They are fast-moving one hit wonders that are a high-profile target that is also incapable of inflicting damage at range.

While 9 Lasguns and a Laspistol is not my idea of overwhelming firepower from the Legionaires, it bolsters their overall presence as a jack-of-all-trades, master of none unit.

Legionaires are low-cost, low-profile, are very low on the enemy target priority list, yet can be surprisingly effective. That is where their strength lies -- not only in their Desperadoes D6 roll, but in the way your opponent is more than likely going to pass up an opportunity to shoot them in favor of a more threatening target. That, and the fact that they are scoring.

CK

[Edited text in brackets]

The best part of the Penal Legionnaires is their Stubborn status. With cover and going to ground, it could make them difficult to remove from an objective.

Corpsman_of_Krieg wrote:Well, Kasrkinlegion, it looks like willydstyle saved me the trouble of explaining one more reason why Valks simply won't cut it [when compared against Penal Legionaires]. I wasn't even aware that they were more than 3" above the table when mounted on their bases -- now that I am, I must say I'm inclined to agree with the "not-contesting" camp...

... Legionaires are low-cost, low-profile, are very low on the enemy target priority list, yet can be surprisingly effective. That is where their strength lies -- not only in their Desperadoes D6 roll, but in the way your opponent is more than likely going to pass up an opportunity to shoot them in favor of a more threatening target. That, and the fact that they are scoring.

Well there is serious disagreement about the use of the flying stand. It will probably be FAQed in some fashion to make the rule actually make sense because right now it doesn't and it's contradictory. You're going to probably cause a lot of arguments with your IG opponents if you stick strictly to that rule as it smacks of abusive rules lawyering to force your opponent to have a silly disadvantage... not sure that's the best choice in how to play a game of 40k.

Back to legionaires, there really not low cost compared to a lot of other stuff in the army. A hydra is 75 points and I think is a lot more of a threat. Special weapon squad with three meltas is 65. Heavy weapon team with three autocannons is also 75 points. Now I know what the retort is, that they're different units that have different jobs. But when I'm making my list, I need to ask myself, what is the best way to spend those points. For 65 points, I can defend against an extra land raider which have popped up like wildfire in 5e with the new AV14 happiness. Is 80 points for a bunch of guys, who might tie up a marine unit for a turn and maybe kill more or less depending on how I roll for them going to be better? Are three autocannons going to be better against most armies than my 10 man knife wielding psychos? Against a horde army like nids or orks, definitely would rather have three autocannons. 10 penal legionaires won't last 5 seconds against units in those armies. Against marines and chaos, they could be decent if I roll rending, but that's a BIG if. I have a 66% chance to get furious charge which will be less than useful and assault lasguns are a waste of time against meq armies. If I roll assault lasguns against meq armies, I just paid 30 extra points for stubborn run of the mill guardsmen, totally not worth it.

This is my problem with penal legionaires, there is always something more useful to spend the same points on.

Now if you could pick their power or pay extra points and buy one or something, they'd be a whole different bag of tricks...

That's just it though -- I understand that they're not particularly good at any one thing, and despite this they remain flexible scoring units. I know I mentioned their abilities with regard to offensive performance, but willydstyle hit the nail on the head with his above comment. The big plus with them is stubborn.

If you're playing Capture and Control or Seize Ground and you've got an aggressive army, you can use Penal Legionaires as objective holders. Move 'em up, lay 'em down, and suddenly you have a sturdy squad that refuses to move without disproportionate amounts of enemy attention.

In sum, the combination of unit-wide Ld8, Stubborn and Scoring for the low cost of 80 points makes for a solid choice all around. I don't plan on fielding any in my army, but they are still better than people have given them credit for.

CK

I think I am going to give mine Chemical Stimulants. The Last Chancers can go IN the Valyries and will be toting the proper equipment, thanks.

Corpsman_of_Krieg wrote:If you're playing Capture and Control or Seize Ground and you've got an aggressive army, you can use Penal Legionaires as objective holders. Move 'em up, lay 'em down, and suddenly you have a sturdy squad that refuses to move without disproportionate amounts of enemy attention.

Are you kidding? Five marines with boltguns can wipe out the unit. One hit from any large blast weapon in the game can wipe out the unit. Eldar with scatter lasers, ork hordes, gaunts, Tau rifles, you name it and the unit is dead or running. These guys die just as fast as a 50 point infantry squad and have the same Ld. Guard need to hold objectives by dropping blast templates on them and then dropping a unit from a Valkyrie turn 6.

willydstyle wrote:The rules say that a vehicle has to be within 3" of an objective, and that is defined by the vehicle's hull. Blame the guys who wrote the guard codex and designed a model that does not work well with the rules. The rules also specify that you can assault a skimmer by coming into contact with either its hull or its base, but otherwise the base does not count as part of the vehicle's hull.

If you cannot sit your models on top of the objective because you are within 1" of the valk base then you sure ass hell are contesting the objective. Just for the same reason you can run a unit off the board with a valk, valks contest objectives.

You are being an officious ass, and a terrible sportsman playing like that, taking what rules suit your theory on gaming...


As for penal legion, I look at them like a special weapons squad with demo packs, one shot wonders. If they get the assault 2 lasguns it kinda blows, but use them as a screener unit for say a scout sent squad, or just a stopgap to MAYBE keep an enemy unit from shooting next round. If you can stop a dev squad with 4 heavy bolters from mowing down your footsloggers because you held for a round of combat you made your points back in spades.

I have played with them 5 times, got rending once, assault weapons once, and fleet/CA/FA 3 times. It sucks that you cannot give them grenades, and usually they come in near some guys in cover, but those are the breaks. Overall I love the way they play, and I think they fit well in a tourney army. They are a scoring unit that can either counter charge, outflank charge, or shoot at crap. Even better, because of the stubborn rule, you cannot rally if you lose, but you still rally if you win

moosifer wrote:
You are being an officious ass, and a terrible sportsman playing like that, taking what rules suit your theory on gaming...

Please avoid personal attacks. Just because someone interprets the rules differently than you does not make them wrong. If you blame anyone, blame GW for making models without appropriate rules clarification.

Mod:

No personal attacks please.

Posts of that kind are liable to lead to official warnings and suspensions.

Thank you.

Biophysic wrote:

moosifer wrote:
You are being an officious ass, and a terrible sportsman playing like that, taking what rules suit your theory on gaming...

Please avoid personal attacks. Just because someone interprets the rules differently than you does not make them wrong. If you blame anyone, blame GW for making models without appropriate rules clarification.

I seem to have drawn a lot of ire and anger from people for suggesting that they should play by the rules. I stopped posting about the Valkyrie topic in this thread because it is off-topic. I started a thread in the YMDC forums about valkyries if you want to get all worked up about it there. I won't be replying any further in this thread, except to make comments about penal legionnaires.

About which, I would like to say that they give you an excellent reason to use old Necromunda minis that may be laying around

I think that Willy is on the right track with valks contesting objectives. Especially with all the new IG air cav powerlists cropping up like obnoxious little dandelions, this is really a small loss for IG players when compared to all the gains they obtained in the new Codex.

For example, the penal legionnaires being discussed are rather unbalanced, when you consider similar units. Though the consensus seems to be that they are somewhat competitive, but not supremely so, consider the fact that they cost less than a third of the chaos possessed, which have more randomization in their rolls, have to deploy first, meaning they will frequently be deployed wrong for the ability they gain, and have several abilities that are essentially useless.

Heh someone tried to say that to me last game.... I just took him off the stand and ripped the wings off. Now he is on the damn objective and you cant say he isn't in cover.

fatal_GRACE wrote:I think that Willy is on the right track with valks contesting objectives. Especially with all the new IG air cav powerlists cropping up like obnoxious little dandelions, this is really a small loss for IG players when compared to all the gains they obtained in the new Codex.

After the brokenness of lash and the horrendously unbalanced Ork Nob Bikerz, you're really going to complain about valkyries? Dropping off T3 models that are Ld 7/8? Seriously? I was just chastised that I thought valks were tougher than they really are. Several people were bragging about how easy they are to kill...

Valk heavy armies are competitive, but they're not the game breaking fest that Chaos and Orks have been. I'd rather go up against 9 Valks than 100 orks and a unit of Nob Bikerz...

So about dem Penal Boys. What are the thoughts of attaching a priest to them and holding them in reserve if they get their fleet or rending roll and use them as a counter charge unit?

I think there are better counter assault units. Counter assault for guard isn't about winning, it's simply about speed bumps. Rough Riders do this so well for the points, that spending the extra on a priest and penal legionaires doesn't make sense. If you really want to tarpit people, Armored sentinels are awesome. Against hordes of gaunts or orks, they'll literally tie up the units for the whole game as those units have nothing that can even glance AV 12. Against powerfists/claws, they'll last a surprisingly long time, probably longer than penal legionaires.

Also, if you just want counter assault a 50 point infantry squad will speed bump a unit for a turn and they're also great at screening tanks. That's probably your number one counter assault job, keeping your tanks away from assaults.

Kasrkinlegion wrote:I think there are better counter assault units. Counter assault for guard isn't about winning, it's simply about speed bumps. Rough Riders do this so well for the points, that spending the extra on a priest and penal legionaires doesn't make sense. If you really want to tarpit people, Armored sentinels are awesome. Against hordes of gaunts or orks, they'll literally tie up the units for the whole game as those units have nothing that can even glance AV 12. Against powerfists/claws, they'll last a surprisingly long time, probably longer than penal legionaires.

Also, if you just want counter assault a 50 point infantry squad will speed bump a unit for a turn and they're also great at screening tanks. That's probably your number one counter assault job, keeping your tanks away from assaults.

I keep seeing the term "speed bump" bandied about, and I don't think people are using it right. A speed bump should slow the enemy's assault units down.

A regular guard infantry squad that gets assaulted is 90% likely to die and run on the turn they get assaulted. Combine the assault move with the consolidation move, and this means that they just gave the enemy up to 12" of additional movement towards your forces. That is not a speed bump, but a turbocharger. Of course, this outcome does give you the chance to shoot at the unit in your next shooting phase, which is nearly always a good thing.

On the other hand, an infantry unit with stubborn can absorb a good number of losses and prevent the enemy unit from advancing. In addition, if the penal legionnaires gave the Furious Charge or rending bonuses, having them assault the enemy units both A.) keeps them farther from your lines and B.) since the penal legionnaires are just humans after all, means that by the time they've been wiped out, there's a good chance of the enemy being open in your shooting phase.

willydstyle wrote:A regular guard infantry squad that gets assaulted is 90% likely to die and run on the turn they get assaulted. Combine the assault move with the consolidation move, and this means that they just gave the enemy up to 12" of additional movement towards your forces. That is not a speed bump, but a turbocharger. Of course, this outcome does give you the chance to shoot at the unit in your next shooting phase, which is nearly always a good thing.

On the other hand, an infantry unit with stubborn can absorb a good number of losses and prevent the enemy unit from advancing. In addition, if the penal legionnaires gave the Furious Charge or rending bonuses, having them assault the enemy units both A.) keeps them farther from your lines and B.) since the penal legionnaires are just humans after all, means that by the time they've been wiped out, there's a good chance of the enemy being open in your shooting phase.

You're definitely right about speed bumps, they do have to be used properly. Since penal legionaires will probably get wiped on wounds alone by almost any dedicated assault squad in the game, their stubborn ability will only help against non-assault units. If your penal legionaires are in an assault with these units, the non-assault unit can't be shot at by your mountain of IG hot death. This is my main gripe against an 80 point assault squad made of stubborn guard infantry, they die just as fast for 30 more points but they're still not deadly enough to go and bust up units that could be hurt by assaults. The luck element where you could get assault lasguns of suck make this even more of a problem.

@Kasrkinlegion

Are you kidding? Five marines with boltguns can wipe out the unit. One hit from any large blast weapon in the game can wipe out the unit. Eldar with scatter lasers, ork hordes, gaunts, Tau rifles, you name it and the unit is dead or running. These guys die just as fast as a 50 point infantry squad and have the same Ld. Guard need to hold objectives by dropping blast templates on them and then dropping a unit from a Valkyrie turn 6.

Quick Note: Five Marines kill 2 Legionaires per turn, 1 if they're in 4+ cover, and less if they go to ground. Hardly the wipe-out you're referring to.

Sigh, you and your Valkyries. First of all, all of the above cost more than a Penal Legionaire squad. Second, you're assuming they'd stand and shoot back -- if you're using them as objective holders, they hole up and stay out of the way. You'd use them as a follow-up to your attack group by moving in and hunkering down while your offensive line pushes onward.

You can't wait around until the last turn of the game to get on objectives any longer -- random game length kinda prevents that...

They're not supposed to be used as speed bumps. RRs (for all their flaws) are better, as are Ogryn. They're a low-aggro unit that quietly hangs out on an objective, or they're a non-factor of your battle plan that is designed to be little hell-raisers before dieing spectacularly.

CK

5 marines with boltguns at 12" is a different story...

10 Shots...

6-7 Hit...

4 Wound...

4 Dead Penal Legionaires... no save...

2 Dead Penal Legionaires if they have a 4+ cover.

Anyone with a flamer will wipe the unit in a turn especially since they ignore cover saves.

How do you hold an objective with 10 T3 guys?

They won't last a turn... there are simply too many other places I'd rather spend 80 points...

Here's another to add to the myriad of examples I've given. 80 points equals two sets of plasma sponsons for Leman Russes. Not sure I want to give up four plasma cannon shots a turn for random T3 monkeys...

Kasrkinlegion wrote:5 marines with boltguns at 12" is a different story...

10 Shots...

6-7 Hit...

4 Wound...

4 Dead Penal Legionaires... no save...

2 Dead Penal Legionaires if they have a 4+ cover.

Anyone with a flamer will wipe the unit in a turn especially since they ignore cover saves.

How do you hold an objective with 10 T3 guys?

They won't last a turn... there are simply too many other places I'd rather spend 80 points...

Here's another to add to the myriad of examples I've given. 80 points equals two sets of plasma sponsons for Leman Russes. Not sure I want to give up four plasma cannon shots a turn for random T3 monkeys...

Those 80 point monkeys have the ability to tie up a shooty squad(Dev's, Havoc's, Eldar Gun crews) for hopefully 1 round of shooting, whether it be in close combat or forcing your enemy to stop shooting at more dangerous units to deal with this little pain in their side. Even better would be a late game reserve roll and deploying in a spot which can retake an objective for you.

You are right in the fact 80 points buys you two plasma cannon sponson for Russ's, but then again shouldnt they budgeted into the list in the first place? Or I could take marbo for 65 points and stick a powerfist on a commander. Even better I could take 2 outflanking scout sents with autocannons.

The entire point of this skirmisher unit (yea i used the term) is to get into enemy lines and cause as much mayhem and confusion as possible. They are pretty effective in that job for their point cost.

For goodness sake, Kasrkinlegion, if the Guard player lets 5 Marines get that close to one of his objectives (in the backfield too, since I mentioned in this particular example that the rest of the army secures the position before letting the Stubborn Legionnaires hang back on the objective.) then he is making some gross tactical errors.

So you kill 2 Legionnaires. Big whoop. They're either going to hide while a Leman Russ blows a hole in the SM Combat Squad, or they're going to hop out and tie up the unit with their Fleeting Furious Charge or Rending attacks.

Moosifer said it right -- they're SKIRMISHERS, hell-raisers, harassers, etc. They're not front-line units. They're a way to hold down an objective without removing an element from the offensive force of your army list to go babysit a specific location. They are annoying, weak little units that are packing more than meets the eye -- nothing more.

CK

How can you keep drop pod marines off your objectives. They're going to land on them eventually and 10 T3 guys won't matter a hill of beans when it happens...

Kasrkinlegion wrote:How can you keep drop pod marines off your objectives. They're going to land on them eventually and 10 T3 guys won't matter a hill of beans when it happens...

Before I head out to the hospital for the day here are some options for you:

Platoon Command Squad with 4x Flamers + Chimera with heavy flamer

20-50 Man Mobbed up unit given first rank second rank

Plasma Vet squad in chimera with heavy flamer

Add any of these options + PBS leadership demotion you are looking at a fleeing unit of marines

I think we all have been spoiled by boltguns and the idea that high ap weapons are what makes a shooty squad effective. The whole point of a guard shooty squad is to make your opponent take sooo many saving throws that their eye's bleed. I will take the loss of a 50-70 point guard squad to have that PCS roll up on the drop pod marines and have the potential to roll 30-50 wounds on a very packed squad

How can you keep drop pod marines off your objectives. They're going to land on them eventually and 10 T3 guys won't matter a hill of beans when it happens...

'Cause Drop Pod Spehs Mehrienz are the only thing anyone plays. Ever. So there's one unit out there that will "surprise" the enemy. Like I said, the Guard player should be taking countermeasures (Mystics, Battlecannons, etc) such that this kind of tactical foolishness on the Marine player's part will earn him a couple dead Guardsmen and a dead squad of his own Marines.

If he devoted the minimum 5 Marines (who does that instead of Combat Squadding?) to a Drop Pod, he has by definition already allocated more points than the Legionnaires are worth. They're still just as dead come the Guard player's turn (possibly sooner if the Guard player has Mystics).

CK

I wasn't complaining about the power of valks, they don't slow me down too much in my own games.

However, it is irritating to see a sudden rush of lists in the Army Lists forum that are all nearly identical air cav lists. I don't like lash lists or nob bikes either. It is just unimaginative.

What really bothers me is that the IG got all sorts of goodies, like every new imperial codex, and people seem to use the air cav list, or some variant, almost exclusively. Meanwhile, the new Chaos Codex is so awful, it basically requires a lame dual lash oblit spam list to be competitive.

fatal_GRACE wrote:I wasn't complaining about the power of valks, they don't slow me down too much in my own games.

However, it is irritating to see a sudden rush of lists in the Army Lists forum that are all nearly identical air cav lists. I don't like lash lists or nob bikes either. It is just unimaginative.

What really bothers me is that the IG got all sorts of goodies, like every new imperial codex, and people seem to use the air cav list, or some variant, almost exclusively. Meanwhile, the new Chaos Codex is so awful, it basically requires a lame dual lash oblit spam list to be competitive.

If they make a giant new awesome looking model, that is probably one of the coolest looking things they've ever produced... people are going to want to buy them. Don't worry though, once people figure out they need their own trucking company to get 9 valkyries anywhere, they'll rethink those lists...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

moosifer wrote:

Kasrkinlegion wrote:How can you keep drop pod marines off your objectives. They're going to land on them eventually and 10 T3 guys won't matter a hill of beans when it happens...

Before I head out to the hospital for the day here are some options for you:

Platoon Command Squad with 4x Flamers + Chimera with heavy flamer

20-50 Man Mobbed up unit given first rank second rank

Plasma Vet squad in chimera with heavy flamer

Add any of these options + PBS leadership demotion you are looking at a fleeing unit of marines

I think we all have been spoiled by boltguns and the idea that high ap weapons are what makes a shooty squad effective. The whole point of a guard shooty squad is to make your opponent take sooo many saving throws that their eye's bleed. I will take the loss of a 50-70 point guard squad to have that PCS roll up on the drop pod marines and have the potential to roll 30-50 wounds on a very packed squad

Those are all very effective tactics for dealing with drop pods... none of them need to include a unit of penal troopers to be effective though...