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Made in us
Strider





Bremerton, WA

Unfortunately with Power Codex's like the new IG and Space Marines, they kind of force non fluff lists. I try my best to use fluff, but to stay competitive I feel I need to just play for power.

If you smell bad, take a shower before playing me. I hate when people devote too much time to something that they can't even shower.  
   
Made in us
Battlewagon Driver with Charged Engine






H.B.M.C. wrote:"Make an army, not a list" ... the casual-gamer mafia of Dakka must be stopped at all costs (especially those of them that instantly refer to any competative or tournament gamer as a WAAC player as a 'get out of making a valid argument free' card).


[Insert godfather music}]

Coming this summer

They think they are invinsible.

They think that they rule this forum.

well now H.B.M.C. is going to show the gamer mafia that they're not above the law

In the undakkables

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2009/05/25 05:44:11


H.B.M.C. wrote:
"Balance, playtesting - a casual gamer craves not these things!" - Yoda, a casual gamer.
Three things matter in marksmanship -
location, location, location
MagickalMemories wrote:How about making another fist?
One can be, "Da Fist uv Mork" and the second can be, "Da Uvver Fist uv Mork."
Make a third, and it can be, "Da Uvver Uvver Fist uv Mork"
Eric
 
   
Made in au
Adolescent Youth with Potential




I want to state from the start...I like fluff. That is why I like the Space Marines.

But....

Play the game you want to play. By that I mean ask the player how they play their list. If you do not like it then tell them to move over to the next table. If you do not have that option, alter your list in some way.

For me, just as long as their list is not broken it does not matter. The game is a game of tactics and strategy. Part of that consists of how you build your army list and the rest is how you play it (the dice gods of course come into this along the way). The order in which one unit in your army attacks after another is not relevant. That is tactical. The tactics are a part of the fluff I will grant you that, but tactics CHANGE!

There has been power gaming in one way or the other for a long time. Even back in the early days of this game there would have been army lists built with the best possible chances of winning. I mean come on, if most people could not win a few games a month, would they (or you maybe) still enjoy the game? Would you/they keep on playing a fluff army and loose 8/10? Would you or them learn anything? You just keep on loosing. The thrill of winning makes a large part of any competative game. And you have to face facts folks, Warhammer is a competative game.

Poker, black jack, warmachine, World of Warcraft, Diablo, TF2.....you have a chance to win (items, the game etc) in all of these.

I don't know. Maybe we should designate a table in our clubs for fluff armies only.

For me, well, I intend to have 4 squads of tactical marines as my core army along with the generic chapter master. I love em. They look good and I love a gun line. Also the marines to me signify a mass of armor clad, gun toting, geneticaly jacked up, hyper active, pious, self rightouse do gooders. A mass of guns and bodies. See....fluff.

The other guy can do what he wants. Just as long as it is not cheating.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/05/25 06:30:46


 
   
Made in gb
Devastating Dark Reaper





UK, Wherever I lay my hat

EasyE wrote: Yriel would be fine in an Iyanden list, but why is he marching with random craftworld #72, and why is Eldrad with him for that matter.


Why would Eldrad be with anyone considering he is dead? If you're going to follow the background to the letter no one should ever use Eldrad.

But really you can make up your own background and justify anything you want.

For example the Eldrad and Yriel situation you can say that Yriel's space fleet was passing through and saw random craftworld #72 was in trouble so he lends a hand. And Eldrad although he is dead his spirit now wanders through the webway popping up here and there. Helping out by fixing leaks, taking out the rubbish, helping old Eldar ladies cross the street and blowing up space marine commander's brains. You know because he is just awesome like that.

You've just got to love the Space Elves

Inquisition themed guard? ...One day in the far far future.
 
   
Made in us
Sneaky Striking Scorpion




Just because you 'can' do something, doesn't mean you 'should' do something.

I guess my main thing is:

Why make a competitive list that breaks the fluff in half, when you could make another list almost exactly as competitive and keep the fluff entirely intact.

Of course, as all things are, subject to opinion.
   
Made in us
[MOD]
Madrak Ironhide







EasyE wrote:Just because you 'can' do something, doesn't mean you 'should' do something.

I guess my main thing is:

Why make a competitive list that breaks the fluff in half, when you could make another list almost exactly as competitive and keep the fluff entirely intact.

Of course, as all things are, subject to opinion.


GW should make it so you can have competitive fluffy lists then.

DR:70+S+G-MB-I+Pwmhd05#+D++A+++/aWD100R++T(S)DM+++
Get your own Dakka Code!

"...he could never understand the sense of a contest in which the two adversaries agreed upon the rules." Gabriel Garcia Marquez, One Hundred Years of Solitude 
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

malfred wrote:GW should make it so you can have competitive fluffy lists then.


They did that three times:

Iron Warriors
Codex: Armageddon Black Templars
Codex: Armageddon Speed Freaks

All three were considered 'broken'.

People are never happy.

   
Made in ie
Waaagh! Warbiker




H.B.M.C. wrote:
malfred wrote:GW should make it so you can have competitive fluffy lists then.


They did that three times:

Iron Warriors
Codex: Armageddon Black Templars
Codex: Armageddon Speed Freaks

All three were considered 'broken'.

People are never happy.
2nd Edition Spess Wolevs Too
   
Made in eg
[MOD]
Keeper of the Adeptus Arbites Flame






Cairo, Egypt

H.B.M.C. wrote:
malfred wrote:GW should make it so you can have competitive fluffy lists then.


They did that three times:

Iron Warriors
Codex: Armageddon Black Templars
Codex: Armageddon Speed Freaks

All three were considered 'broken'.

People are never happy.


HBMC stole my answer.

Some lists are powerful.
Some are fluffy.
Some are both.

They're not opposites. The problem is that some armies get both, some get neither and for most of us you don't find out what you ahve until after spending $100s of dollars and 100s of hours.

 
   
Made in ca
Angered Reaver Arena Champion






Polonius wrote:I was commenting that your original post wasn't a really fair question. It's called begging the quesiton: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beg_the_question, and in it, you essentially asserted as a premise the idea that building to fluff is good and power gaming is bad.


I think Sir that you hit the nail on the head. This thread has been biased from the get go. Moreover, the OP is posting this on a forum used by those who are very enthusiastic about their hobby - an unlikely spot for a casual gamer (who I would think would be more likely to agree with you).

Sangfroid Marines 5000 pts
Wych Cult 2000
Tau 2000 
   
Made in us
Devestating Grey Knight Dreadknight






Instead of starting a new thread about "the list" question; why not seek out gamers that play your prefered style?

You like a tough as nails army build it and play it with other people who enjoy gaming with you.

If you prefer a more casual approach play more casual players.

Ripping on competitive players isn't going to change the fact that they exist. Competitive players help drive the hobby by showing up at conventions to challenge each other. Web sites like this exist so players can exchange ideas and learn how to foil the "it" army of the moment.

DQ:70+S++G+M-B+I+Pw40k93+ID++A+/eWD156R++T(T)DM++


 
   
Made in us
[MOD]
Madrak Ironhide







They're posting about it for validation.

DR:70+S+G-MB-I+Pwmhd05#+D++A+++/aWD100R++T(S)DM+++
Get your own Dakka Code!

"...he could never understand the sense of a contest in which the two adversaries agreed upon the rules." Gabriel Garcia Marquez, One Hundred Years of Solitude 
   
Made in us
Unrelenting Rubric Terminator of Tzeentch





Akron, Ohio

EasyE wrote:
Why make a competitive list that breaks the fluff in half, when you could make another list almost exactly as competitive and keep the fluff entirely intact.

I don't believe I have ever seen a list that broke the fluff in half (Ancient Enemies are gone, let them rest in peace with the zoats).

DR:90S+G++MB+I+Pw40k07++D++A++/eWD-R+++T(Ot)DM+
 
   
Made in us
Missionary On A Mission




The Eye of Terror

I run a lash prince.

I also run 2 squads of noise marines and some chosen with Icon of slaanesh.

 
   
Made in ca
Huge Hierodule






Outflanking

As far as I play, my rule is this: Play nothing I would not want to play. (No lurking off the board for half the bloody game, no Vampire Counts, no sticking everybody in a transport and playing keep away, etc.) I do not care if I get Thrashed, but I try to prevent it as much as possible, I preffer to have fun while loseing.

I also am not fond of "Generic Special Characters", though don't really care if you play them.

Q: What do you call a Dinosaur Handpuppet?

A: A Maniraptor 
   
Made in gb
Furious Fire Dragon





Maybe its my self improvement mentality but im constantly trying to improve myself in all walks of life, and one of the best ways to improve yourself is to challange yourself.

because of this i have no problem in fielding any list no matter how "unfluffy" it is, to me limitting myself to a self imposed restriction will just limit my ability to improve myself.

Dont think I don't enjoy the fluff, I write fan Fiction and hope to eventually be a BL author, I just think that the differences between the storyline and the table top is already so different (ie the varying power levels of marines) that being true to the source material in game is impossible.



P.M. me for rational Eldar Advice, both on list construction or Tactics.

Also feel free to query me about rules from the Eldar and Space Marine codices, as well as the General Rule book.

Mech Eldar army of the Craftworld Din Cassian currently at 17-6-7.

The Cat in my Avatar is my Cat. He's called Taz and he's just over ten months old. 
   
Made in us
Implacable Black Templar Initiate




Poconos, PA

When it comes to "make an army not a list", I just believe that people shouldn't just play an army for one list but the play the army on a whole.

Its not about using super competitive lists or fluffy lists, that kind of thing is more about what type of other players you play with and your own personally style. If you enjoy playing on the tournament high power level and so do the people that you against then by all means go crazy with your games. If you like armies that have rich back stories and massive amounts of fluff and do the other people you play against then once again go crazy! Just realize that not all players are the same and try to make sure BOTH players have fun, I say 90% of players actually realize this but there are those that never seem to notice the other player in the game. Those 10% are an other problem all together but that's for an other topic.

I'm also not talking about people just getting in the hobby, starting a new army, or don't have an army big enough to field larger armies. Every army starts somewhere and often only have a bare requirements. But the thing is you build from there and grow your army. I personally don't have enough Orks to field multiple different lists of 2000 point games (I like 1000 - 1500 point games anyways) and I'm still working on building it (ever so slowly...)

Now what I'm talking about are people that ONLY play that one specific list and when that one list becomes boring to them then they drop the entire army. In practice the usually cases are power tournament builds but its not always the case.

To give a perfect example of this let me share a story of an actual player at my FLGS.
When I started visiting the club there, he was playing Grey Knights using the 3 Land Raider build. Then he got bored of that list...
Then he dropped the Grey Knights and went Blood Angels. Lots of Assault Troops and with Dante. Then he got bored of that list...
Now he is playing Chaos Marines. With as many Oblits and Berserkers as he can for his World Eater army....

4500 Points
 
   
Made in us
[MOD]
Madrak Ironhide







What if the codex only has one playable build or only one playable build that is of interest to you?

DR:70+S+G-MB-I+Pwmhd05#+D++A+++/aWD100R++T(S)DM+++
Get your own Dakka Code!

"...he could never understand the sense of a contest in which the two adversaries agreed upon the rules." Gabriel Garcia Marquez, One Hundred Years of Solitude 
   
Made in au
Killer Klaivex






Forever alone

Then you throw it out, log onto the internet, and find some porn instead.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/05/26 01:48:58


People are like dice, a certain Frenchman said that. You throw yourself in the direction of your own choosing. People are free because they can do that. Everyone's circumstances are different, but no matter how small the choice, at the very least, you can throw yourself. It's not chance or fate. It's the choice you made. 
   
Made in us
[MOD]
Madrak Ironhide







Cheese Elemental wrote:Then you throw it out, log onto the internet, and find some porn instead.


To quote three wise men.

"I don't believe in Internet porn.
It's so wrong, it's reprehensible.

And it wastes your whole day."

DR:70+S+G-MB-I+Pwmhd05#+D++A+++/aWD100R++T(S)DM+++
Get your own Dakka Code!

"...he could never understand the sense of a contest in which the two adversaries agreed upon the rules." Gabriel Garcia Marquez, One Hundred Years of Solitude 
   
Made in au
Killer Klaivex






Forever alone

Who are the three wise men, your parents?

People are like dice, a certain Frenchman said that. You throw yourself in the direction of your own choosing. People are free because they can do that. Everyone's circumstances are different, but no matter how small the choice, at the very least, you can throw yourself. It's not chance or fate. It's the choice you made. 
   
Made in ca
Frothing Warhound of Chaos





IMHO you can have an army that is both refined and fluffy, for example, if i'm gonna field Kharn the betrayer at a tourney i would load in khorne berserkers, regular marines with mark/icon of khorne, my Obliterators, and my Chaos lord on a juggernaut with a bloodthirster, and some vehicles ETC. That way everything is good and buff but still fits fluff, just don't field two unique HQ, and make your other HQ(s) fit the same theme, now this is just for my CSM army, but i'm sure with a little studying and a few careful upgrades to fill in points other armies could pull things like this off too, now stop arguing and find a way to do it!

You're not a geek if you can beat the out of people who call you a geek, as such, i am not a geek.
I play 2000 point (homebrew warband) L:2 D:1 W:2
DS:90-S+GMB-IPw40K08#++D+A+/SWD-R+T(OT)DM+
Purgo vestri vesica per vestri hostilis cruor.
Purgo vestri animus per cruor of reproba unus 
   
Made in us
[MOD]
Madrak Ironhide







Cheese Elemental wrote:Who are the three wise men, your parents?




DR:70+S+G-MB-I+Pwmhd05#+D++A+++/aWD100R++T(S)DM+++
Get your own Dakka Code!

"...he could never understand the sense of a contest in which the two adversaries agreed upon the rules." Gabriel Garcia Marquez, One Hundred Years of Solitude 
   
Made in au
Crazed Zealot






My Sisters of Battle army i have carefully built using a fluffy theme to dictate what units i take, i did this for me and my enjoyment, i like the challenge it gave me, i have a competetive list against most other players, although i lose more than i win i bear no ill-will to someone who power builds.

My CSM army again is built around a theme - again it's competitve but not a super army.

I like to win, but it's not the main focus of the hobby for me, the modeling and painting is why i play and games night give me an oppurtunity to show off what i can do. who am i to say that someone isnt taking the hobby serisouly or shouldn't be playing mearly because he takes something different from the hobby to me. I Like restricting myself in my choices, it means i need to think outside the box.

What i guess im trying to say is If you want to powergame - powergame
If you want a fluffy army then have a fluffy army - if they stick to the rules of the game and the codex then im ok with what ever you bring.

'When in trouble or in Doubt run in circles Scream and Shout'

4000pts
3000pts
4000pts 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran






I could care less what's across the table from me. I don't mind playing power lists because it gives me the opportunity to figure out firsthand how to play against it. I play orks so anything I want to take is easy to explain away with fluff. One guy just a couple of weeks ago "accused" me of taking ridiculously fluffy lists that still manage to walk right through anything.

   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




I agree completely that the hobby has become dominated with "power lists." And the quote in your title is awesome.

It all comes down to the filthy word "metagame" the idea that a battle is decided before it even begins because there are a handful of lists that take advantage of every loophole, every cheesy unit combo, and generally can beat anything else out there with little strategy.

To me those who make these lists don't want to "play" a game, they only want to take part when there is almost no chance of losing. They are sore losers and can't be bothered to have a challange of any kind. They are the same kind of people who's only RTS is command and conquer and they only spam one uber unit over and over. If I designed a game that consisted of a button that you press and a speaker says "you win" every time, they would buy so many of that "game" that i would a millionaire.


It seems to happen even more on the forums because if you put up a list that isn't one of the pre-munchkin-approved lists it quickly gets ripped apart and the few constructive comments are buried under an avalanche of "take all the units out and replace them with the one list that everyone uses."


everything doesn't have to be completely up to fluff, but seeing people throw around "this unit is worthless, that unit is worthless, only take this one unit." because they have a .000012% of doing more damage gets really annoying and sucks all the fun out of the game.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/05/26 20:27:20


 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Baltimore, MD

skullkandy wrote:I agree completely that the hobby has become dominated with "power lists." And the quote in your title is awesome.

It all comes down to the filthy word "metagame" the idea that a battle is decided before it even begins because there are a handful of lists that take advantage of every loophole, every cheesy unit combo, and generally can beat anything else out there with little strategy.

To me those who make these lists don't want to "play" a game, they only want to take part when there is almost no chance of losing. They are sore losers and can't be bothered to have a challange of any kind. They are the same kind of people who's only RTS is command and conquer and they only spam one uber unit over and over. If I designed a game that consisted of a button that you press and a speaker says "you win" every time, they would buy so many of that "game" that i would a millionaire.


It seems to happen even more on the forums because if you put up a list that isn't one of the pre-munchkin-approved lists it quickly gets ripped apart and the few constructive comments are buried under an avalanche of "take all the units out and replace them with the one list that everyone uses."


Wow. Just.... Wow.

My Painted Armies
: Co. B, 37th Praetorian IG: 11,000pts
Cygnar: 350pts
KOW Ogres: 4500 points
Loyalist Emperor's Children: 2500 points 
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka





Southampton

Hobby will always have power lists around unless you create a game like chess were everybody has the same army (see also LOTR).

The lists are not as power build focused as they used to be (take a bow 2nd Edition) and at least basic stuff like Troops are now compulsory. They have even actively encouraged more Troop taking through the objective holding rule.

   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




Polonius wrote:
skullkandy wrote:I agree completely that the hobby has become dominated with "power lists." And the quote in your title is awesome.

It all comes down to the filthy word "metagame" the idea that a battle is decided before it even begins because there are a handful of lists that take advantage of every loophole, every cheesy unit combo, and generally can beat anything else out there with little strategy.

To me those who make these lists don't want to "play" a game, they only want to take part when there is almost no chance of losing. They are sore losers and can't be bothered to have a challange of any kind. They are the same kind of people who's only RTS is command and conquer and they only spam one uber unit over and over. If I designed a game that consisted of a button that you press and a speaker says "you win" every time, they would buy so many of that "game" that i would a millionaire.


It seems to happen even more on the forums because if you put up a list that isn't one of the pre-munchkin-approved lists it quickly gets ripped apart and the few constructive comments are buried under an avalanche of "take all the units out and replace them with the one list that everyone uses."


Wow. Just.... Wow.




I know, I know, I like to have a challenge when I play a game and don't wet myself If I lose so I see no point in copying one of the three lists that everyone seems to be using over and over or making broad statements about a lists being completely "useless" because it isn't taking advantage of chesse and loopholes.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/05/26 20:29:53


 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka



Chicago, Illinois

I own two redeemers I spent 50 bucks on these things I generally take one of them in my army because I like the model.

If I lose it is because I had bad luck, if you win it is because you cheated. 
   
 
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