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River & Water Warfare in 40k?
YES!
NO!
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The poll is lame because the there needs to be a 'no' option not because I don't want to give GW more money, but just because it's a silly idea that's never going to happen. Wet navies really aren't a factor in 40K. The sea-faring culture of Fenris uses longboats. If orks, or chaos, or tyranids decided to pay the space wolf homeworld a visit, you wouldn't sea space marines using them. Ships are quite vulnerable to air superiority, not to mention space superiority against vessels hundreds or thousands of times bigger than they are.

Wet navies are just too niche, and they just don't have anything to offer to the tabletop game of 40k.

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Right behind you.

Fifty wrote:Gah! This thread drives me crazy!

Why use the sea? For exactly the same reasons we do when we have aeroplanes.

More efficient energy and resource use to get a particular job done.


What particular job?
In no way, shape, or form would transporting and deploying, or commandeering local resources to build up a wet navy for a few beach assaults be efficient. Not when you can use those craft that are transporting the wet navy to transport dropships or transport stuff like Valkyries, Orcas, etc.
   
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karnaeya wrote:No. Cause there cant be two imperial navies


I'd guess wet-navies would mostly fall under planetary defense forces as it's not likely to be efficient to haul boats from planet to planet.

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This was a funny thought today. Many of you are so irked by the fact that humans and tech should have evolved to the point that under no circumstance whatsoever could warrant the use of a boat in the 40k universe...pretty funny and narrow minded......also keep in mind:

With everyone so "...navy is so old and not needed mentality..." and over reliant on airpower, a smart general would think outside the box to get to an enemy island loaded with anti-aircraft weapons.....using boats.....

The space marines used to have jet bikes before the heresy, then they were lost technology. Now they have old time motorcycles, some with side cars no less! LOL

They still use "slug" style firearms (in many armies & fluff).

Space Wolf novels, Iron Snake novel, Armageddon novel, and Inquisitor novels had naval conflicts because weather or other conditions made any other means of getting from point a to b impossible.

The rhino is based of the 1950s/60s M113 APC...

In space wolf novels, the priest would go to the surface and took a boat to many islands to get new blood for the chapter....

The Russ tank is based of a WWI tank...

In games day 2004 (I think) there was a huge display of a Dark Eldar beach raid......coming in from the sea.....

But a sci-fi, high tech, black, stealth, hydro foil boat loaded with Imperial Guard Stormtroopers is a "far fetched" and "unrealistic concept" in the 40k world.....

Okaaaay.........




Automatically Appended Next Post:
whitedragon wrote:
krazynadechukr2 wrote:
1) Beach Landing - Landing troops in quick, lightly armored transports onto a heavily fortified/defended enemy position to establish a beachhead.

2) Planetary Landing - Landing troops in quick, lightly armored transports onto a heavily fortified/defended enemy position to establish a beachhead.



car - 4 wheels, made of metal, carries things...
shopping cart - 4 wheels, made of metal, carries things...

Yeah, that works too!

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2009/05/27 00:53:18


 
   
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yeri wrote:I don't see much action for surface navies, seeing as anything as large as a battleship being a big target to an orbital bombardment.


And a Titan or Leviathan isn't?

I'd love a 4 foot long 40K-scale Imperial battleship.
   
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I was originally talkin of just small landing craft, like rhino or up to land raider size vessals.....nothing bigger.....
   
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Right behind you.

And the Dark Eldar beach raid was mounted in skimmers...
In Ian Watson's space wolf novels, the tribes they recruit from are still at a feudal level of technology.
The Rhino may be based off the M113 and the Russ may be based off a WW1 tank, but that's not to say that the Imperium somehow just completely disregarded the weapons development of the 21st and subsequent centuries. For all we know, they could have reverted back to the older styles for easier identification/production scales.
I honestly do not remember many points from the Inquisitor novels where there were naval vessels used, especially in combat, other than Eisenhorn finding out about a cultist using a hovercraft-ish ferry that he was able to charter to get at a corrupted Titan.

Seriously, I don't get the allure of naval warfare. It's hard enough to do urban warfare well, naval warfare would be a mess. Sure, a beach landing would be fun to play out. But it wouldn't be done using landing craft, and there sure wouldn't be any opposition that wasn't already hit from orbit. Just remember that all the major amphibious invasions of WWII were preceded by lengthy airborne operations(the only exception, if I recall, is the Pacific theater. I don't recall any notable airborne drops there, other than a few special operations/raider drops.), aerial bombardments, and large-scale naval bombardments. The defenders would have to dig in like a tick to have a chance at surviving, and it was a brutal affair for both sides. And even then, the battles wouldn't really be much more than marching troops ashore while under fire, with the REAL battles starting once the beachheads were secured.
   
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Raiders are skimmers, so beach raids are fine .

But imagine if you travel from planet to planet, will you really be transporting ships or boats along? ( i dont mean amphibious type )just ships? I mean what are they going to do effectively when everything is fighting on land and air (which is probably over land too )

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I could see a conventional navy being used on a world that has a roughly 20th/21st century technology base, but unfortunately such worlds probably make up such a small, insignifigant portion of the Imperium that it isn't even worth mentioning. I've got to go with the "No" team on this one - It would just be illogical and and a waste of time on GW's part to try and do a 40K conventional navy game. I could see them making a TON of money off of a Fantasy Naval game, but 40K has Gothic. That, in my opinion, is far better than any conventional navy wargame.

Though rules for water based landing craft would be interesting, and might be worth something, as obviously a bunch of small boats are far sneakier than a bunch of massive, roaring Valkyries.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2009/05/27 01:50:02


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Ships < Ravagers
Ships < ORBITAL MUTHA-FETHEN BOMBARDMENTS!

Other than mile long cargo ships for Human worlds, I don't see sea-bound vessels in use.
I don't see the use of military (true) naval vessels.
   
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Right behind you.

I have to say that if we can, at this level of technological base, mount surprise helicopter assaults...

I'm pretty sure a Valkyrie can be sneaky too
   
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Kanluwen, grats on your 666th post. Tell us if you start feeling wierd or... y'know, posessed.

That said, yea I guess that's true. Though you have to wonder - Were the Helicopters really that sneaky? Or were the people they were assaulting just too pants-over-the-head slowed to realize that "FWOOSHFWOOSHFWOOSHFWOOSHFWOOSH" accompanied by the buzzing of rappel lines meant imminent death?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/05/27 02:41:39


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krazynadechukr2 wrote:
But a sci-fi, high tech, black, stealth, hydro foil boat loaded with Imperial Guard Stormtroopers is a "far fetched" and "unrealistic concept" in the 40k world.....


Well, to be honest 'high tech' (at least visibly), black, and stealth really don't "work" for Imperial tech too well. I'd expect them to get something more like a skipjack with some massive jet turbines added, a half-dozen oddly-placed turrets, and encrusted with skulls as something Imperials can use.

I think that (as you said) naval conflicts exist in the setting but aren't common or varied enough to really require an entire book. Maybe a WD article...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
metallifan wrote:I could see a conventional navy being used on a world that has a roughly 20th/21st century technology base, but unfortunately such worlds probably make up such a small, insignifigant portion of the Imperium that it isn't even worth mentioning. I've got to go with the "No" team on this one - It would just be illogical and and a waste of time on GW's part to try and do a 40K conventional navy game. I could see them making a TON of money off of a Fantasy Naval game, but 40K has Gothic. That, in my opinion, is far better than any conventional navy wargame.

Though rules for water based landing craft would be interesting, and might be worth something, as obviously a bunch of small boats are far sneakier than a bunch of massive, roaring Valkyries.


I could see them used, but I think they'd need a healthy does of the usual Imperial hyperbole. Massive barges and tankers crossing foul-smelling seas infested with horrible creatures. Outrider boats armed with heavy flamers and storm bolters in case things try to climb up the triple-walled hull that has been in use for millennia and is maintained by dedicated Adeptus Mechanicust techpriests and servitors because this boat's laod of supplies is keeping a Hive City going for another few weeks. That kind of thing.

BTW, you know they had a fantasy naval game, right? Man-o-war.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/05/27 03:42:57


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Im still not really buying it. Even if tons of water worlds was the case, almost every army already has skimmers. Sure, maybe there are more skimmers in the future. There are also a lot of jet infantry/jetbikes. Shore breaching boats just seems so stone age in the 40K setting.
   
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has anyone thought about this...

say IG and Tau both have controll of parts of a planet... the IG's "navy" has controll of the area in what they have ground troops thus making a tau drop a pipe dream.

the taus navy has controll of thier sectors making a guard drop a guardsmen worst nightmare (unless they join the tau )


the skimmers and flyers could fly low, but would have to land before to long... like Icarus, fly to high and the orbital ships will get you, to low and the anti air lascannons will... wait a min.
   
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That would be cool
Doesnt it say that a land raider can withstand underwater
we can use that

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OK , My reason for saying no. A very small % of gammers will want to buy , build , paint models for boats and terrain for such battles that can already be duplicated , with no real game play additions , with deep strike and out flanking.

So , not enough sells for GW. This would take more useful and wanted space in the production line.

On top of all that , Why ?

Now , I will show them why they fear the night. 
   
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Boats in fantasy make a lot more sense, and are a lot bigger part of the fluff. Even had man-o-war. And yet...

BOAT MONTH SUCKED!!! What an incredible waste of time.

We don't need to waste a codex on 40k boats.


I'd rather see them put some time into a Daemon Worlds campaign. Seas of boiling blood, or molten silver. Rotting hulks on a lake of puss.

....and lo!.....The Age of Sigmar came to an end when Saint Veetock and his hamster legions smote the false Sigmar and destroyed the bubbleverse and lead the true believers back to the Old World.
 
   
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I'd rather see them put some time into a Daemon Worlds campaign. Seas of boiling blood, or molten silver. Rotting hulks on a lake of puss.


Now THAT'S a 40K suppliment I'd buy. I've played a campaign on a Chaos Undivided Demon World as part of a map based Story campaign, and my god was that ever a blast. Too bad the board and all the terrain for it are back with my cousin's Chaos army in Abbotsford >.<

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/05/27 05:41:41


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EasyE wrote:Shore breaching boats just seems so stone age in the 40K setting.


You do realize that most armies have units armed with swords in them, right?


Still, I agree, aquatic combat is too overshadowed by space combat to capture interest in the setting. Maybe a few Apoc sheets for some boats, aside from that it's just not worth trying to pursue. Especially since most tables don't have a whole lot of seaside anyways.

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- OP....

The idea is possible.

- Catachan Jungle fighters. (Vietnam style fighting in marshy swampland.)

You won't have any ships of the line kind of stuff, anything stupidly excessive, or outlandish.

Want to know how to do it?

- 1. Board.

The board will be painted greenish blue, shelacked over, or use a watery resin such as is in the plant section of your local arts and crafts store. You can add in the paint, mix it around, and add in the two ply epoxy setter and spred it all over the board. use your old brush to indent the surface of the "water" so you can get some texture, etc. Add in some pete moss and mix it in, some gravel, etc. basicly you are trying to make a water board.( heh heh... not that kind of water boarding, you goof. )

Depending on how you want to do it, you cvan use styrofoam and waterbased acrylic paint, and paint over your little "Island/ Land masses." You can do this in a couble of different ways, but using 1X1 sheets, ans using your styrocutter to form the textures, and adding topigraphic levels, such as 1/2 to 2" thickness sections.

It will be in suich a way as sandwiched onto itself, painted over, textured, add on your gravel, twigs, etc. and then you have an island. Phase two of this plan can revolve around different sizes of islands. You then use the Jungle, fish greens, plastic trees to add in the foliage. You can use machinegun nests, fortifications, etc. Go friggin nuts, FTW!!!

-2. Boats.

Your boats are going to be crap, or they won't. dep[ending on what types you want to use, the time you feel like putting into them, and what sort of boats do you want to project.
- WW2 Stalengrad Boats.- You can use a higgins boat, Landing craft, make it out of balsa wood, add a couple of camo nets, and make sure you use a couple of GW bases to shape the interior of the simple boats.
- Vietnam Jungle PBR's- There are several models of this nature out there that you can use. One I've seen was 1/48. It seens a bit small to play the game with, and you are going to have an issue setting up guys on the boat. Another issue you will have is the boat itself. You are going to have to take the 1-35 scale boat, and cut it down the water line, and sand it and base it so it is on a square of balsawood, and bases with the resin water, as well.

Movement.
The boats can have the same 6-12 in movement as the Chimera's, or other vehicles.

Weapons-

Knock yourself out, as long as you arn't being a tool and trying to ork out the boats. ( unless of course, you are an ork player, then by all means, WAAAAGGGHHHH!!!!!)


I've got a million ideas how this can go.

Jungle

ASH Wastes

Techworld ( Terminator looking crazy ruins)

Blood planet- Put in different shades of red into the waterbase.

Armageddon planets

Island Hopping campaigns

Planetscape battle boards- large scape boards
etc.etc.etc.


It isn't a matter of a logical step. Its a matter of feasability, if you have the nad's to pull it off, and if you have a plan on how to make more then just a lame butcher block paper and some popsical stick boats.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The water stuff I'm talking about is a two ply epoxy, or it is a resin substance.

It is used in your run of the mill "Old Lady stuff." The kind of gear where they make the plastic plats, put them in arrangements, and put crap like little birds, or plastic squirrles in.

Around where I live, we have Arts and Crafts stores that have massive amounts of supplies that you can easily go in, pick up a bag of gravel, a couple of bottles of this stuff, the sand and the paint for 20-40 bucks.

The 4X4 sheets come in 4X8 and cut them, or the 4X4's that you can buy for around 10-15 bucks.

The scenery can come in ranges of 10-30 buck, and then there is the little matter of the other materials.

sticks, rubbish, green lichen, plastic aquarium plants. etc.etc.etc.

Then the styrofoam, which comes in 4X12 foot sheets, or you cna buy it in assorted thickness's and sizes.

As in Planet strike, one thing that people arn't getting too much into is how much of a survivability that units on the board have.

and once again, it is going to base on your sizes of boats.

Too big, such as using G.I.Joe's Aircraft carrier, and I am going to drop an orbital bombardment on it, and wipe it out. Too small, and you won't have enough guys make it to land to do anything other then die like dogs, like Anzio or D-Day. Then there is the little matter of boats for the land vehicles, such as hovercrafts, the Landing Crafts, the Ducks, the Higgins Boats, the PBR's. You have to make a few boats so that you can put the vehicles in them, except for maybe some home made troop carriers.

BTR-60's can float. They had some skirts on some tanks in WW@ that kinda floated, and I'm pretty sure the chimera's can float.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2009/05/27 07:34:34




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krazynadechukr2 wrote:I was originally talkin of just small landing craft, like rhino or up to land raider size vessals.....nothing bigger.....
The GORGON is amphibious and is made largely as a cope of the Higgins.

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In one of the novells, the Soul Drinker chapter make a beach landing to assault the fortress of a chaos demon, in wooden boats propelled by the engines of their dropships.
The reason they used this method was because the fortress was hidden under a mile thick layer of nurgle-flies, which prohibited aerial approach. They had to land onto a nearby continent then cross the sea.

Fluffwise it's not completely unheard of, but it wouldn't be enough of a reason to have dedicated naval units.
Besides boarding a spaceship, hulk or spacestation would be whole lot more entertaining.






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If it's good enough for the Soul Drinkers, it's good enough for me. They had boats, and they fething rock!

   
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Water-bound warfare would require every board to include water features (and the random placement of rivers/lakes would cause serious balance issues to players that require their boats to be in firing range, but the lakes are too far away, etc.)

Boats are cool for house-rules, and for friendly scenarios.

The Chimera is Amphibious!

 
   
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New England

Mattlov wrote:I doubt it. With drop pods and teleporting, who needs to assault from the sea?

Orks, peek at the Apoc datasheet on Ork Submarines...

Amphibious/surface naval warfare is a moot point when one government controls the entire planet. It has no real reason to exist except in a Coast Guard type of environment.


Once the war starts, one goverment may -not- control the entire planet..

Realistically, however it's -been done- a few years ago WD had a beach landing scenario, on top of that there are the Chimeras and Gorgons and afore mentioned Ork Subs..

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/05/27 17:38:15


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I can picture a setting on a planet. Its a humid jungle like planet, where the land mass is split by wide, deep waterways and deep vast oceans of "liquid" in between.

Most land mass, if you can call it that, is covered in dense, and I mean dense jungle, which for anything other than a Marine would be utterly lethal!

The population of the planet live on clustered water bound platforms. Any inbound planetery traffic have to land in various Space-ports which are dedicated platforms, from there the various cargo and passengers are transported along the water ways by means of.....you got it, boat!

The Planet is an important centre for fuel processing and weapons manufacture, these being produced again on dedicated platforms.....

....and then all comms with the planet are lost........

The only way to land a sizable force on the planet is via one of the Space-ports, but they are heavily defended, so drop pods and various landing craft are out of the question. You could drop your forces onto the sprawling hab complexes, but apart from the fact that they are also crawling with partisan fighters, even they are not large enough to land an invading force, and support vehicles.

So, what do you do? You could virus bomb the planet and be done with it! But would you secure the vital fuels and wepaons being held there? No, of course not......

.....so the only possible plan, is to land a dedicated platform of your own, set up a defensive perimeter, and send out raiding parties via boat!

You could set up a platform and use the platform as a staging point to launch Valkyrie dropships from, but they would encounter heavy resistance from the air defence weapons on the key platforms, and once the shuttle is lost, so are all the personnel....they'd drown. At least if you had a sea based force, they could recover any vessels that had been sunk or destroyed. But not only that, how would something like a drop pod or Valkyrie penetrate the thick jungle canopy in a reliable and safe way.....

Sorry to ramble on, but all you guys that are saying Boats = Fail, only highlights your own lack of imagination!

Man down, Man down.... 
   
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Delephont wrote:Sorry to ramble on, but all you guys that are saying Boats = Fail, only highlights your own lack of imagination!


No, I'm saying that it'd be a rare and niche situation in-game that few would really want to spend much time working on supporting out-of-game.

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