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Wolf Guard Bodyguard in Terminator Armor







I dont think they are OP, i have played 2 games so far, and i got minor victories against both.

and it would have been a massacre in one game if i hadn't forgot to shoot with my laspred on turn 6 of a 7 turn game =(

by the way, i was running a 2 land raider mechanized space wolf force, which on paper should be dogfood vs most IG lists.

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Hurr! Ogryn Bone 'Ead!





Seoul, South Korea

As a long time player, (since RT days) the day Imperial Guard is overpowered is the day I quit playing. I only play Apoc games now, and if I threw all 25000+ points at someone, then maybe you could say IG is overpowered.

* As a side note I love Orgyn, I use at least 3-6 ten man squads per battle. Just my opinion.

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Hardened Veteran Guardsman



Denton Tx

see people look for that best list!!!!! there is like 6 best lists never a best! what guard has gotten was the ability to make a 7th best list but who has it now??? Thats the question!

 
   
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Homicidal Veteran Blood Angel Assault Marine





Wrexasaur wrote:Automatically Appended Next Post:
Caffran9 wrote:
Dashofpepper wrote:What *IS* the weakness of a mechanized IG force?


Against mechvet... kill the Chimeras early and the list can collapse easily.

People get too caught up in the whole "OMGWTFSCARYPLASMADEATHTANKROFLBBQ!!!!!" and try to bring down the Russes and stuff first, which are quite difficult to really kill from range. The mobility provided by the Chimeras is crucial, and removing that advantage exposes the really weak guardsmen who were hiding within them and lets you clip their scoring units out from under them. Killing the Chimeras early also removes the vast majority of the counter punch of the army as you close in on its lines.

And no, IG are not overpowered. People still try to play against them like they're playing against the old codex and that is an absolutely terrible idea. Once people adjust the way they're building their armies and playing against new IG, they won't be as brutal as they are now.


Prove to me (on a table, P.M. me for a game, we can do it no worries as to location) that you can actually beat a IG force (like a serious one, no jokes, I am ripping the jewels out of the family case) with something besides a non-IG one P.M. me and we can have a few games, I can just sit their and roll well, while you try your highly developed tactics and forum "enouraged" army lists... and I still win 7/10 times, it is just ridiculous. BURN GW AT THE STAKE.... oops... sorry.


Seeing as how I've been testing a very serious mechanized IG list for a while now, I can look at the results of that testing and deduce that if my Chimeras/Dettas are gone quickly, I will have a VERY hard time winning the game. In games where my opponent tries to stop my Russes from firing early,the Chimeras end up largely unmolested for a couple of turns while he's trying to do more than scratch the paint on an AV14 front facing from long range. Thus my whole army is free to rampage. The Chimeras are much easier to deal with from range, and the contain damage dealing units (when used correctly with the right target priority, they're viscious). It doesn't even necessarily have to be all of them either, just enough to weaken the phalanx substantially. The strength of it comes from multiple units picking out the right target and killing it before selecting another. If you remove enough guns so that you stop it from killing what it should consistently, it is hard times. This has been proven thoroughly in my testing against Vulkan Marines (And anything else marines with mobile MMs and the like) that pick their targets well. Jetcouncil Eldar is also a nightmare to play against with Mech IG. The IG player has 2 turns to kill the council (much easier if the IG player goes first and is able to catch the council before it gets buffed with Fortune) before it multicharges everything and tears the armor down with witchblades. DAs and Scatter Lasers then pick up the infantry that fall out.

Other armies sometimes face difficulty with putting down enough accurate fire to really hamper the Chimeras quick enough, but Jetcouncil Eldar and Vulkan Marines are both very highly competitive armies that you are likely to see at/near the top tables at big tournaments. 2 shaky matchups against top level armies is scary. Jetcouncils will become more common as a result of this probably, and Vulkan Marines are already the most common competitive SM list you'll see. Mech IG does well against Chaos and very well against Orks though, which is a nice feeling.
   
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Rough Rider with Boomstick






covenant84 wrote:Ah thanks for that. Thinking about it I don't think I've fought an army tooled up for fast close combat yet, maybe that will proove a bit tricky. And totally agree on the ogryns comment!


Ah but have you used them? I have used them in 2 games and in those games they have done very well! So they are a viable option people.....

best times to use them..versus DE and eldar, orks, nids, and chaos daemons.....here their ripper guns really come into play, and T5 means they stick around...in those 2 games they have laid havoc to the advance of DE raiders, and have destroyed a gunfex, a stealer unit, and have tied up a t7 2+ AS ccfex...against eldar I bet they will do well versus skimmers since they have so many attacks so as to be able to roll 6's to hit versus AV10 rear armor, and thus no holo field for the falcons...so their impact is much more than their points cost...



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Elite Tyranid Warrior






Birmingham UK

covenant84 wrote:Hi all.

First off, I haven't played many games with the new codex yet, but out of the few I have I've not lost by a long shot. Last game I played my brother (ultramarines) and at the end of turn 4 he was left with one terminator and had taken out about 35 of my foot troops and caused a crew stunned (on a valk - extra armour reduces to crew shaken). I'm just wondering if the new codex with the orders makes guard quite a fiecom army to face now, or whether my experiences so far are down to good luck for me and inexperienced opponents who don't get the most out of their army. I had more challenging games with more of a win-draw-loose balance with the previous codex.

Thoughts?


I have mixed thoughts on the guard. I can't really comment on your game as obviously I wasn't there, but my own experiences of playing against Space Marines & Eldar (both of which are with accomplished players) Is a difficult one.
I have to start by saying that I am generally a Tyranid player & changing tactics from, 'run at them & tear them apart' to ' stand back & shoot' a difficult one.
Originally I collected Guard with the previous Codex. I found the game practically un-winable. (if there is such a word). When I heard about the 5th edition Codex I actually shoved them to the back of the cupboard till it came out in the hope the new rules would make them hard as nails.
I must say, since the new Codex I have played several games with them & lost them all. I put the loss down to the uslessness of the basic Guardsman. However, i have not given up. My new list, which i have nicknamed 'Armoured Mayhem' basically consists of 9 Tanks, 20 Veterans & a Lord Commissar. I have yet to see how well it will do, but i do believe it seems to be the way most people who play Guard are leaning.

So, to summarize - I'm not sure how old/experienced you are at playing, but if you are winning with Guard you are either a tactical master or are playing against people who are not so great at the game. Well done either way. I have been playing for years & I find them a very unforgiving army to use.
If you do start coming up against army's you cant beat, try a Mechanized Tank Army.
Nice one.


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Planespotter





i dont think IG are overpowered realy since myself not being a bad player, has won only 50% of my games. sure weve got valks and vendettas wich are kik ass against termies and tanks and such, but a good opponent can blow these to hell easy, krak will do it, my last game sum1 drop podded a dred wit a melta arm behind a stationary vendetta... nuf sed... my one tank hunter a pile of slag :(

infantry win fire-fights, tanks win battles, but artillary wins wars.

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Birmingham - GB

Few replys there!

@Skinnattittar - I've actually found my weapon teams to be far more useful in the new codex. Thre lasconnons with 'bring it down' - I'm loving it. Bye bye enemy tanks.

and I'm finding the basic guardsmen (and for that matter connscript!) to be well worth the points. Yes they might as well ignore most things, but the sheer numebr of shots they now get with the first rank fire second rank fire order can get rediculous. Played against grey knights recently and used a conscript squad to shoot a tactical squad (or whatever it's called). True I didn't wipe it out, but they took down more points than they are worth before being charged and wiped out. Plus the benefit of then having the squad sat in the centre of my gunline My opponent was trying to distract me with other things to try to protect them (charging with termies at the same time, a vindicator pooping the other flank. Yet most of the kills I got were down to normal guardsmen with their laser pointers.

One thing I like about the new dex is that it's a lot more fluffy to the point that basic guardsmen work wonders if you treat them as expendable. Found if you go for a suicide shooting range they usually earn their points back before being masacared and leaving you enemy in a vulnerable position. I know this was happening as soon as the bgb changed, but it seems to work even better with the new dex and the orders system. It can be lethal!

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Homicidal Veteran Blood Angel Assault Marine





This happens with every powerful codex when it comes out. Nob Bikes and Loota Spam shocked the scene when the Orks book came out, and now they're much more tame because people have adapted to them. It takes more time for people to adapt with a game like warhammer because they have to buy new models, then assemble and paint them. The money and amount of work involved in this makes it a much more difficult decision to change an army, so the changes come at a slower pace.

I'm very convinced that new IG are not overpowered because the games I'm playing are against lists that are adjusted to the meta shift and against players who have adapted their game against the new IG book. IT levels the playing field a whole lot more and turns matches that people think are easy wins for IG into matches that it has a better chance to win than the other army, but not by a huge margin.
   
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Calculating Commissar






Kamloops, B.C.

I don't think the Guard are OP. At least I don't think they'll be OP by the time GW finishes the 5th Ed Overhauls. Let's not forget that they've still got more than a few Codices to get through, and with those will likely come a few new units for some armies. Do I think GW messed up the Guard? Not really. Do I think they brought out the Guard's "Keep your heads down while we shell the crap out of it!" style? Absolutely. For now, they are a bit unbalanced, but most of it is in the Character options rather than the standard roster. It all comes down to tactics and build in the end, and while facing the new 5th Ed Guard might be a bit daunting to new players, experienced ones will still be able to get a good Anti-Guard army build going that'll shred a force regardless of rule sets.

Before, players were used to packing a ton of Anti-Tank because that and Stormtroopers were all the IG had going for them. Now that the Officer rules make the PBI actually worth a scrap of the armour they wear however, they -are- going to be a bit tougher to face, meaning that army lists will have to be reformed a bit to face the new style. Ultimately though, there's a long way to go before anyone can say that the Guard are OP. We're only in the second phase of the SM releases, so there's a long way to go still.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2009/06/29 16:35:19


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Los Angeles, CA

Polonius wrote:Mech IG is the best Mechanize army available. They trump Marines, Chaos, and Eldar. Tau players talk up their power a lot, but I think the Tau builds that succeed against IG are pretty heavily slanted towards beating one army.

In a MEQ heavy environment, IG can and will run amok with impunity. Arguably, the new IG book is the final blow against the idea that Marines are truly top tier. Any list that can reliably take apart MeQs is always going to be seen as OP by casual and most tournament gamers.


I dont believe the first statement is true at all, I was in a 1500 pt tourny last weekend with 48 players, I brought my tau expecting mech of many varieties and won 3rd overall. Keep in mind there were 20 IG armies at that tourny, 14 of which were mech vet, and my first two opponents were mech vet players. I think two of the most underused armies are actually THE best IG mech army killers; DE and Tau, tau suits, specifically deathrains are absolute death machines for transports, broadsides and hammerheads for the straying valk, vend, LRBT that comes into view. I also found a great way to use an ethereal which completely canceled a PBS my second opponent was using for 2 turns(granted I got some good roles )

In general, I wouldnt say IG is the best mech army, just probably the most flexible and the most overbearin if not dealt with appropriately. They are deadly, but as said " hard crust with chewy inside"

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Dashofpepper wrote:What *IS* the weakness of a mechanized IG force?
There weakness is close combat and their back Armour of their tanks (10-11) drop some devastator behind their tanks and they will be easily destroyed (i hope).

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2009/06/29 17:39:23


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Homicidal Veteran Blood Angel Assault Marine





You won't be dropping anything near a competitive mechanized IG list because it should be running an IQ/Mystics. without it, the list is ultra vulnerable to deepstriking meltas and such to the point where it struggles hard to win the game. 32pts to basically auto-win several matchups is pretty cool though.
   
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Space Marine wrote:
Dashofpepper wrote:What *IS* the weakness of a mechanized IG force?
There weakness is close combat and their back Armour of their tanks (10-11) drop some devastator behind their tanks and they will be easily destroyed (i hope).


So lets say you get lucky and your devastators drop (I'm assuming in a pod) behind their tanks on turn 2 or 3, then, assuming you survive an entire IG army shooting at you (here's a hint: you won't) you'll finally get to take your first shots on turn 3 or 4, and the game is almost over. Not a winning strategy.

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Home Base: Waconia, MN (Minneapolis)

I'm just gonna say NO, they aren't OP

That is all

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