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Xav wrote:Gork and Mork are gods, they exist in the warp and are incredibly powerful, in mentions that the chaos gods trembled when they woke.

Could you provide a source for this please?

Also, I don't think that there are race-specific Chaos gods. (Slaanesh arose from Eldar decadence, for example.) Lexicanum, in its typical source-free glory, speaks of them as a warp reflection of the "ork racial character," whatever that means. I don't place a great deal of stock in that particular article.

Has Horus not gone all traitor, Humanity would have failed. Remeber, back in the days of the HH spirituality and religion were, for all intents and purposes, considered heretical. The idea of "daemons" and "gods" were concepts that the Emperor and that lot were trying to get these people trapped on these backwater worlds to understand. The Emperor denied the argument of his own divinity and saw religion as a waste of time... except in the case of the Mechanicum, as their particular "god" (C'Tan survivor #3, the Void Dragon) is just sort of chilling out in the Labyrinth Noctis (IIRC).

All this being said, without the Lectio Divinatus and the establishment of the Cult Imperialis DURING the Heresy, Humaity would have stood blind to the malicious entities and intellects seeking to consume them. The Cult Imperialis allowed the High Lords of Terra to establish a means of internal control of their charges and to ensure that none of the worlds of the Imperium decide to try and split off from it, by way of the Inquisition. Had Horus never led the "Traitor" legions, the Imperial bureaucracy would have led to another schism for mankind, and/or the imperium would have simply collapsed under the weight of it's own (at that point, for that scale) martially and administratively lacking infrastructure. Terra would have become a joke within just a few millenia, as Big E's experimentation with the Eldar webway managed to fail miserably, with a bit of a nudge from the Cyclops.

The Webway would have been the only way that the Emperor would have been able to make the vision he had for humanity even remotely possible, as warp travel is not only dangerous, but unpredictable and potentially costly, even beyond the issue of feeding the light of the astronomicon...

But maybe I'm just piecing that together...

We know they are warp being, very powerful ones, i think its a good theory.

The webway wouldnt have failed if Magnus didnt try warning the emporer about Horus and poked holes in the webway, so it might have worked.

Xav wrote:We know they are warp being, very powerful ones, i think its a good theory.

I'm still asking for a source for why we can say "we know . . ."

Gork and Mork are the twin gods of the Orks. The difference between the two gods is very subtle, one being cunningly brutal while the other is brutally cunning, respectively. The upshot is Mork hits you when you aren't looking and Gork hits you harder when you are.

Both of these deities are dedicated to war as the entire Ork species is war loving. Certainly, there is no room in Ork society for other gods as war makes up their entire life. Both gods are believed to offer help to individual Orks in battle, but in the grand scheme, it doesn't matter which god is worshipped. Generally, Gork is worshipped by the regular boyz as a more direct manisfestation of brutal power, when Mork is the God of Oddboyz, the cunning Orks like Meks and Warpheads.

The Ork racial character, strong and virtually indestructible, has its reflection in the warp in the form of the equally strong and indestructible Ork gods. The titanic Ork Gargants are constructed in the two gods' image; consequently, they are living idols and war machines. The Mekboys who build them work from a vision held within their imagination, usually inspired during times of Waa-Ork.

In Ork mythology, Gork and Mork regularly confront the Chaos gods and the gods of other alien races. Gork and Mork are never defeated.

There from Lexicanum, says there warp being there worshipped by Orks and there undefeated.

Manchu wrote:

Xav wrote:Gork and Mork are gods, they exist in the warp and are incredibly powerful, in mentions that the chaos gods trembled when they woke.

Could you provide a source for this please?

Also, I don't think that there are race-specific Chaos gods. (Slaanesh arose from Eldar decadence, for example.) Lexicanum, in its typical source-free glory, speaks of them as a warp reflection of the "ork racial character," whatever that means. I don't place a great deal of stock in that particular article.

Sigh.

People say Lexicanum is the best we have got, so we only can rely on guesswork as we go deeper into 40k history and the warp, so stop asking for bloody sources lol.

Xav wrote:People say Lexicanum is the best we have got, so we only can rely on guesswork as we go deeper into 40k history and the warp, so stop asking for bloody sources lol.

Lexicanum is not a canonical source itself, especially in this case given how vague the entry is. I appreciate the role of speculation in fluff discussion (it's half of what we do, honestly) but guesswork is never enough to make authoritative statements. It's my suggestion that Gork and Mork are more like the Mont'ka and Kauyon tactical schools of the Tau rather than actively conscience beings like Khorne, Slaanesh, Tzeetch, and Nurgle. It's possible that Gork and Mork are "gods" in the same (or similar) sense as the others but I've not seen any fluff (much less recent fluff) indicating this. BUT, as I said, I haven't read the 5th Edition Orks Codex, either. I was kind of hoping that either you had (given your insistence on the subject) or someone else would have chimed in by now.

I have read it, but have always thought of Gork and Mork as gods, as there certaintly aint being in the material realm.

Looks like all we got to back us up is old fluff, and in the old fluff im pretty sure Gork and Mork played tricks on the chaos gods.

Maybe so. But remember when the Emperor was the conglomerated souls of thousands of reincarnating psykers?

It states somewhere that when Gork and Mork woke up the Chaos gods trembled and so did the emporer.

Why would the orks mak stompas in the form of Gork and Mork if Gork and Mork were real? and wondering around the material realm.

There are some gods in the material realm though, like the C'tan

Xav wrote:Why would the orks mak stompas in the form of Gork and Mork if Gork and Mork were real? and wondering around the material realm.

Um. I assume that you mean "if there were NOT real" and as for the answer: Why did the Egyptians build the sphinx? Or, in the world of 40k, the Mechanicum builds warhound titans without there being huge bipedal dogs walking around Mars.

I dont realy understand what your trying to say, please word it differently.

BrotherStynier wrote:He saw Sanguinius's body at Horus' feet when he first entered the room. It was Horus' killing of the one Guardsman who's name I forget that made the emperor realize that Horus had gone to far.

You got a quote on that? It doesn't seem right.

I think when he killed the guardsman, Horus let his guard down from the Emperor so that the Emperor could catch Horus and the Chaos Gods off balance and he took a chance and tried to destroy them there.

Manchu wrote:I don't think Gork and Mork are actual beings like the Chaos "gods."

They are, they are the most powerful warp beings. They constantly play tricks on the chaos gods and beat up Khorne for fun.

Edit: Man, I am late getting to this thread.

The stompas are not proof that Gork and Mork are conscience beings like the Chaos "gods," only that the orks venerate some mythological creatures. Honestly, I'm not even sure if the Eldar gods are "real" but some people claim the Dawn Blade is Anaris! Again, without a source other than "it makes sense to me"--which isn't bad as long as one realizes that doesn't prove a thing.

Meanwhile:

Dreadwinter wrote:

Manchu wrote:I don't think Gork and Mork are actual beings like the Chaos "gods."

They are, they are the most powerful warp beings. They constantly play tricks on the chaos gods and beat up Khorne for fun.

Edit: Man, I am late getting to this thread.

As in . . .

some Lexicanum user wrote:In Ork mythology, Gork and Mork regularly confront the Chaos gods and the gods of other alien races. Gork and Mork are never defeated.

this? Which could mean that this is simply what the orks believe (and not everything they believe becomes real) rather than something that actually exists in a discernable, world-affecting manner. If otherwise, please supply quote and source.

Im pretty sure there some stuff on Gork and Mork in RT but i dont think there alot of fluff on them, from what i know there are gods of the orks and the chaos gods and emporer trembled when they woke, which brings up the question are they like C'tan or are they warp beings?

Would warp being need to sleep?

Well, by "awoke" I think it refers to either when they were created (less likely) or they started paying attention to the real world (more likely) BUT I don't even know where the statement comes from so I cannot verify it or look it over for myself. If you believe the poorly written Lexicanum entry, they are most definitely warp beings.

I cant remeber, im defintely gonna have a look though, but i think we should go back discussing about chaos gos vs emporer, we've gone a little of topic here, and dreadwinter, i think your right the chaos gods/Horus were distracted by the guardsman and the emporer exploited that but alot of marines players will argue.

Yes, back on topic. But wait just a sec:

Dreadwinter, there is no doubt that Ollanius Pius is the Guardsman to end all Guardsmen (assuming he is not retconned into oblivion by the HH series) but isn't it troublesome that he, a mere mortal, managed to achieve the same thing as Sanguinius?

Okay, back on topic: Chaos gods are no match for Emperor or they would have finished him off in the long span of time that he's been a stationary pseudo corpse.

Are you saying that the Guardsmen didn't really achieve much? And who is to say that the Emperor didn't send the guardsmen at Horus telepathically? Sanguinius and Pius both knew they are going to die and they were fine with it. They both had their roles to play.

Also, if there are Chaos Gods because of the emotions of the races. (Human and Eldar) Why would there not be gods for Orks, who are very very psychic in nature?

Dreadwinter wrote:Are you saying that the Guardsmen didn't really achieve much? And who is to say that the Emperor didn't send the guardsmen at Horus telepathically? Sanguinius and Pius both knew they are going to die and they were fine with it. They both had their roles to play.

I'm saying that Ollanius Pius was a hero and fan-fething-tastically awesome to stand up to Horus, buying the Emperor the time that he needed, given that he was just a regular grunt. My point is that such a feat didn't require the courage, brilliance, or might of Primarch and yet everyone says that Sanguinius is so awesome for doing basically the same thing. (Meanwhile, I agree--for a third time no less--that Sanguinius is awesome; just playing Tzeentch's advocate here.)

Dreadwinter wrote:Also, if there are Chaos Gods because of the emotions of the races. (Human and Eldar) Why would there not be gods for Orks, who are very very psychic in nature?

The Chaos gods are not race specific. Why would orks get their own Chaos gods? Eldar are also very, very psychic in nature and they don't have their own Chaos gods.

It took a Primarch to do what Sanguinius did. He and Horus had a history and they knew each other very well. I don't think any other Primarch would have had the patience or resilience to stand and argue with Horus like he did.

Slannesh was a very Eldar chaos god.

It could be said that the Ork Gods were a byproduct of Ork engineering also. When the old ones made them, they were some sort of Psychic Byproduct or a way to get them to obey?

The Warp, its strange and confusing!

Dreadwinter wrote:Fluff, its strange and confusing!

Fixed.

You certainly could say that Slaanesh is "very [Dark] Eldar" in style but s/he is not an Eldar god. S/he is a Chaos god and applicable to all races across the galaxy--i.e., there is no separate human version of Slaanesh. Now if the Ork emotion "Murder! Death! Kill!" is somehow significantly different from everyone else's emotion then sure they might have their own Chaos pantheon. Maybe the Orks are just that special. No doubt Ork enthusiasts will claim so. Which brings me to my new theory . . . drum roll . . . that there is a Space Wolves version of Khorne! Fangs for the fang god! Furs for the fur throne!

I think there is a difference in Chaos gods and the other gods. Chaos Gods are made involuntarily from emotion. Other Gods are given power through worship.

Like say, the Eldar Pantheon and Gork and Mork. Lots and lots of things worship them both. But since there are far far far more Orks worshipping Gork and Mork with high amounts of psychic power, they are the most powerful.

I would say the Orks got the idea to worship Gork and Mork after the Old Ones left. Eventually, they became real and really badass.

Dreadwinter wrote:I think there is a difference in Chaos gods and the other gods. Chaos Gods are made involuntarily from emotion. Other Gods are given power through worship.

Like say, the Eldar Pantheon and Gork and Mork. Lots and lots of things worship them both. But since there are far far far more Orks worshipping Gork and Mork with high amounts of psychic power, they are the most powerful.

I would say the Orks got the idea to worship Gork and Mork after the Old Ones left. Eventually, they became real and really badass.

Wait what? Where is all of this coming from? Forgive me, I am sincerely lost.

Here's a theory, how about the different gods cant worship different types of being. Maybe Gork and Mork are seperate gods to show there differences from humanity and stuff, maybe the gods are there to make a race independant, it would certainly make Orks less, well Orky if they workshipped Khorne, it would be strange, like there not there own race, do you know what i mean?

Xav wrote:Here's a theory, how about the different gods cant worship different types of being. Maybe Gork and Mork are seperate gods to show there differences from humanity and stuff, maybe the gods are there to make a race independant, it would certainly make Orks less, well Orky if they workshipped Khorne, it would be strange, like there not there own race, do you know what i mean?

That makes good sense to me from the perspective of GW's marketing plan. After all, Chaos Orks or--failing that--Dark Orks? That'd be pretty lame. But it's the fluff perspective that doesn't quite fit, at least to me. Then again, as is always eventually pointed out (so much so that it should just be a standard quote), "GW leaves intentional gaps for the fans to create their own fluff blah blah blah."

Manchu wrote:

Dreadwinter wrote:I think there is a difference in Chaos gods and the other gods. Chaos Gods are made involuntarily from emotion. Other Gods are given power through worship.

Like say, the Eldar Pantheon and Gork and Mork. Lots and lots of things worship them both. But since there are far far far more Orks worshipping Gork and Mork with high amounts of psychic power, they are the most powerful.

I would say the Orks got the idea to worship Gork and Mork after the Old Ones left. Eventually, they became real and really badass.

Wait what? Where is all of this coming from? Forgive me, I am sincerely lost.

Theory?

Oh okay. I was thinking . . . do the Eldar even worship their gods much less any other race worshiping them?

Again, I confess to having little knowledge of the orks, given that their codex is one of two (the other is DE) that I have not read.

I was under the impression eldar's god of war was dead, killed by the nightbringer, it seems the old ones had reputation of creating races to fight of Necrons and then the races worshipping gods, and through worshop made those gods exist.
But a Avatar has a bit of Kharne armour it it or something.