Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I'm not sure that psyker always means psychic. I definitely agree that the Emperor had an extraordinary degree of foresight but I don't think he was omniscient. What you're saying sound like the Judeo-Christian concept of deity. But I think the closest that the Emperor gets is on par with the warp entities known as the Chaos gods.

1hadhq wrote:Magnus was too overconfident about his abitlity to control the warp.
Still, the emperor has seen Magnus as 2nd best suited to use the "throne" after himself, superior to malcador.

Maybe the emperor wasnt the perfect daddy, but his sons were also lacking in a lot of things.

Russ easily fell to horus trick, not dragging Magnus back to his emperor but killing him.
Magnus didn't accept the emperors order. Should have rushed to the loyal legions side on isstvan, not whine to his daddy.

But we will see what BL makes of this.

Magnus couldn't have rushed to the loyal legions aid at Istvaan he was to busy being beaten up by his brother.

Yes they were lacking because they were never properly taught. The Emeporer seemed to neglect them all to a degree.

Emperors Faithful wrote:The Emperors only "flaw", was that he loved his sons too much. To him they were not generals whos loyalty he demanded, and could keep watch of. They were his children, his brethren whom he trusted. Apparently, he trusted some of them too much.

He didn't love his sons to much, they were just tools to be used and cast aside when he had no more use for them or when they broke. Look at how he handled the whole situation with Angron. He just made it seemed like he cared at times.

(Edit)@Octavius Widowmaker:
He did not WANT to take away the free will of his sons. He treated them as loyal (at least then) family, not mindless servants.

I doubt he LET them take on chaos. That would be stupid. And the Emprah is awesome. Not stupid.

@Brother Stynier:
1) 20 Kids, mate. Let's see how much attention YOU could give each of them.

2) No, remember, where others would have seen a broken tool when they looked at the "mutations" of Sanguinius and Magnus, the Emprah greeted them as his own children. No bias whatsoever. (P.S. he was mad at magnus cos Magnus had broken his oath and apparently wrecked something REALLY important.) Fluff often comments on how overjoyed he was to be re-united with his sons. (Though I don't know about strong words like "Love")

Lol, Stynier. You have such a Chaos-y attitude. It's right out of the heresy books. I know, I know, EF and I are fanatics. I like how the poll options are pretty evenly split. GW does a good job keeping us guessing.

Actually, I've never read even a bit about the Horus Heresy novels. (Though I've been told a bit about the storyline). I pick up this fluff from numerous white dwarf pieces on space marine legions. (Both traitor and loyal)

The best cases are:
Vulkan: Emprah loses contest to save Vulkans life.
Sanguinius: Emprah ignores mutations, treats him like any other.
Magnus: Again ignores the more serious mutations. (Also, something about a psycic reunion)
Horus: Found him first, loved him dearly like a first-born son.
Night Lords dude: Was upset that night lords primarch was so convinced about the Emprah killing him. He pitied him, and thought mabye his young years had disturbed him.

Emperors Faithful wrote:@Brother Stynier:
1) 20 Kids, mate. Let's see how much attention YOU could give each of them.

2) No, remember, where others would have seen a broken tool when they looked at the "mutations" of Sanguinius and Magnus, the Emprah greeted them as his own children. No bias whatsoever. (P.S. he was mad at magnus cos Magnus had broken his oath and apparently wrecked something REALLY important.) Fluff often comments on how overjoyed he was to be re-united with his sons. (Though I don't know about strong words like "Love")

@1) If he really was this great God that is to be fawned over by all he could have done it.

@2)He only greeted them that way because he needed them inorder to accomplish his goals, if they weren't needed do you really think he would have let them live? Yes, Magnus broke a promise and broke something important and needed a talking to, but when that happens you don't send the guy you know would beat the crap out of him. The Emperor was overjoyed at the reunions of his sons simply because it ment that he could go ahead with his dastardly plans

Manchu wrote:Lol, Stynier. You have such a Chaos-y attitude. It's right out of the heresy books. I know, I know, EF and I are fanatics. I like how the poll options are pretty evenly split. GW does a good job keeping us guessing.

EDIT internet froze have to redo the Manchu directed part

Well if you think about the "Chaos-y" attitude it make sense. After you take the galaxy over what are you gonna do with your superhuman killers? Either kill them off or banish them under the pretense of them going of to conquer other galaxies.

Dastardly plans?
Please point out something that was downright evil. Much nastier than whatever orks/nids/necrons/chaos had in mind.

Also, fluff often comments on the commraderie and family ties between the primarchs AND the Emprah.

His dastardly plan was to be come a god.

Fluff does say that, but its possible for these things to be faked, and remeber fluff also talks about the emperor being a prick and the primarchs being prick to one another.

Fluff say nothing about the Emprah INTENDING to make himself a god. In fact quite the opposite. He told Lorgar off remember?

Also, while fluff may comment on the primarch being dicks it never says anything like that about the Emprah as such. (The closest it gets to it is Aphurius when it says the Emprah was too busy too spend a great deal of time with him)

1) The Horus Heresy books comment on the Emperor making himself a god. It could all be chaos lies or it could be true.

2) The way the Emperor handled his telling off Lorgar and the way he handled Niketo and Magnus. Those are examples of his dickery.

Witch Hunters dex desribes the rise of Emprah godhood in much better detail. It is almost ENTIRELY after his sacrifice. (Though there were a few cults worshipping him before his non-death)

Which one is Niketo?
Magnus was a dick. An arrogant dick. And Russ kicked his ass. (apparently it was Horus who switched the order from "bring back" to "kill")

I think her means Council of Nikaea, when the Emperor admonished Magnus.

The Witch Hunters dex is also old and contains a number of things that are ambiguously cannon.

Niketo is where they said "Tone down your Psykers."

Magnus tried to stop Horus from falling.

No, magnus blabbed out sorcery-style and showed off his powers AGAIN to the Emprah. It speciffically mentions in WD that Magnus saw it as an opportunity to prove the Emprah wrong.

Witch Hunter dex is accurate enough in this case. It's not that old. What's wrong with the fluff?

Emperors Faithful wrote:No, magnus blabbed out sorcery-style and showed off his powers AGAIN to the Emprah. It speciffically mentions in WD that Magnus saw it as an opportunity to prove the Emprah wrong.

I don't doubt this but could you throw us some quotes all the same?

I don't have a stockpile of white dwarf magazines here right now. We borrow them from the FLGS. We only get together every now and them.

Emperors Faithful wrote:No, magnus blabbed out sorcery-style and showed off his powers AGAIN to the Emprah. It speciffically mentions in WD that Magnus saw it as an opportunity to prove the Emprah wrong.

Witch Hunter dex is accurate enough in this case. It's not that old. What's wrong with the fluff?

In the Horus Heresy books, which are argueable as to whether or not they are cannon (every GW employee I have spoken with say they are) Magnus uses his powers to delve into the Warp to try and convince Horus that what Erebus had been telling him was all a lie. Horus chose to believe Erebus.

It's just out dated.

What's erebus?

Also, I got this from the White Dwarf about the thousand sins legion. It only mentions a message to the Emprah.

Erebus is the First Chaplain of the Word Bearers, sent by Lorgar to convert Horus to the Ruinous Powers.

Well if its older it would only mention that.

Erebus was the Word Bearers' first Chaplain. He appeared to Horus in the visions induced by Davinite sorcerors to tempt Horus to Chaos. Magnus tried unsuccessfully to intervene.

HH books are def canonical. EF, you really should read some of them.

BrotherStynier wrote:
Yes they were lacking because they were never properly taught. The Emeporer seemed to neglect them all to a degree.

Didn't chaos intercept the emperor's plans for his primarchs?


About erebus:

Magnus tried to help horus, but horus was too deeply impressed with his own reign over the galaxy shown to him.
From this encounter, magnus should have known his power is restricted and changed his tactic.
Visions are nice but can be faked, whilst reality is proof on itself.

See "BftA". The other marines were shocked about the Tsons powers.
So magnus teachings were good enough to create capable psykers.
Magnus should have taken his nose out the books sometimes. Psi alone doesn't win battles or a war.

1hadhq wrote:

BrotherStynier wrote:
Yes they were lacking because they were never properly taught. The Emeporer seemed to neglect them all to a degree.

Didn't chaos intercept the emperor's plans for his primarchs?

Chaos took them because supposedly the Emperor double crossed them.

About erebus:

Magnus tried to help horus, but horus was too deeply impressed with his own reign over the galaxy shown to him.
From this encounter, magnus should have known his power is restricted and changed his tactic.
Visions are nice but can be faked, whilst reality is proof on itself.

See "BftA". The other marines were shocked about the Tsons powers.
So magnus teachings were good enough to create capable psykers.
Magnus should have taken his nose out the books sometimes. Psi alone doesn't win battles or a war.

Maybe Magnus should have maybe he shouldn't have. Regardless the Emperor didn't need to send the Space Wolves to get them, mah Puppies don't like Thousand Sons...

The Powers in Abyss seemed like normal Librarian powers to me, so in that they just over reacted, or Niketo did say no Librarians and the Sons and the Dark Angels chose to ignore that. In all the Heresy series they are the only Legions shown to use Librarians.

The Council of NIKAEA . . . ahem, the Council of Nikaea did not ban librarians.

Where did the emperor "double cross" the warp creatures?


Nicea was about reducing the research on sorcery.

Librarians had to fight normally without using their powers, ordered by the ban on psykers.
Doesn't made them non-existant.

Malcador ordered the legions to assign chaplains to enforce the ban.
As for "visions of heresy II" : some did not

Its right there. Some primarchs ignored malacadors edict.

Manchu wrote:The Council of NIKAEA . . . ahem, the Council of Nikaea did not ban librarians.

Right sorry. Sure they may not have banned them out right but when ever a Librarian did something slightly related to his powers his was Labeled a Sorcerer.

1hadhq wrote:Where did the emperor "double cross" the warp creatures?

Its mentioned in the first three HH books, granted the truth is questionable

Nicea was about reducing the research on sorcery.

Librarians had to fight normally without using their powers, ordered by the ban on psykers.
Doesn't made them non-existant.

Malcador ordered the legions to assign chaplains to enforce the ban.
As for "visions of heresy II" : some did not

Its right there. Some primarchs ignored malacadors edict.

Yes the Council was a ban on Sorcery but after the Council if ever someone did something they were called a Sorcerer.

Librarians fighting without powers is down right useless, with out them they would only be allowed to keep the history of the Chapter/Legion. According to the ban on them using there powers they wouldn't be able to do their communication, which was another use, as the are not astropaths the only people allowed to use their powers. The treatment of astropaths is similar to the Emperor's treatment of the Mechanicum he let them do things he didn't like because it was beneficial to him, yet when some one else wants to do similar things Lorgar/Magnus he yells at them.

A more detailed reference would be nice.


IIRc, astropaths and navigators are sanctioned. The mechanicum is an ally ( and easy to bribe, see horus ).

Yep, Astropaths and navigators are sancionted. The Emprah himself was psycic after all, easily the match for Magnus.

It's mentioned in False Gods.

They are sanctioned, but they are treated better than the rest. True, they are an ally, but the Emperor still didn't try to do anything about them having a god, like he did with everyone else.

Who the mechanicum?
Yeah, Wise move. Destroy your ONLY way of producing weapons, arms and armour by ruining their religeon RIGHT in the middle of a crusade.

They are the AdMech, Titan Guys, make kit like you said.

When he allied with them we weren't in the middle of a Crusade. It can't be that hard to replace a bunch of priests that think praying will turn on a machine with people you train to fix machines. He's the Emperor he could have taught people how to do things.