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2009/08/07 17:06:43
Subject: Maybe starting 40K?
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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In casual play, I'd agree.
However, in competition, depending on the power balance, a low enough tier army may have no chance of winning against certain high-power armies, regardless of player skill.
This seems to be the problem in WFB right now...
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2009/08/07 17:19:19
Subject: Maybe starting 40K?
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Arch Magos w/ 4 Meg of RAM
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Blast it John, you keep making me think Gwar! is back with that new Avatar.
On topic, like my good friend Tiberius, I don't believe in a 'no win' situation. Player skill will always find a way, so long as the points prices stay relatively balanced (no amount of skill will help a 1k army defeat a 2k army, only huge, recouring statistical improbability).
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2009/08/07 18:22:45
Subject: Re:Maybe starting 40K?
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Regular Dakkanaut
CT
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I know it's important to feel like your army is competitive, but if this is your first 40k army I think a big factor in your decision should be what models you think are cool looking. Now don't laugh. 40k takes a significant time and money investment. If you aren't enthusiastic about the models you will probably will feel the hobby portion of 40k will be more of an annoyance than anything else. About half the experience of 40k for me is staring proudly at my completely built and painted army on my shelf. My ork's be a handsome army.
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2009/08/07 18:23:59
Subject: Maybe starting 40K?
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Foolproof Falcon Pilot
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DarkHound wrote:Alerian wrote:DarkHound wrote:At I3. So, you'll be able to run down a squad of Guardsmen (while sustaining casualties) and then get blown to peices by LASGUNS (widely considered the worst weapons in the game). Kroot baby-sit objectives, and they die reliably (making for good speed bumps), but they aren't fighters.
You must be forgetting that those 12 Kroot hounds have I6...they will be killing more than Guardsmen. Sure, the Kroot are slow, but their puppies are fast!
Yes, with the Hounds they are 2 attacks at S4 I6. So, they are 3 on the charge... 36 S4 swings will amount to about a 50% chance of killing a single T5 TEQ (as Plague Marines have a 83% save). Granted that is probably their worse match up. Against a regular (not Chaos) marine those 36 attacks will ammount to about 3 dead Marines. The return swings of the Marines kill 3, and the rest of the Kroot swing (assuming you have 17 Kroot left) with 51 attacks and kill just over 4. There are 3 Marines left, and the Marines elect to fall back with ATSKNF, and (my math is sketchy here, as I don't know the actualy equation for this situation) they have maybe a 50% chance of falling back successfully, because the hounds are the minority you use I3 for the sweeping advance. . quote]
However, the SMs do not have great chances of getting away with ATSKNF and being allowed to regroup. The Kroot still get their consolidate move, and if they consolidate within 6" of the SMs, then the Marines cannot regroup. This forces another 2d6 fallback on the part of the SMs on their next turn, so now the Tau player can elect to shoot them, or assault again with the Kroot. Also, if you placed another unit behind the SMs, prior to the assault, you will force them to never regroup.
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2009/08/07 18:35:31
Subject: Maybe starting 40K?
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Arch Magos w/ 4 Meg of RAM
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Regardless, other elements in the Space Marine army shoot the Kroot down after as soon as that combat is over. It may make its KP back, but not its points. Making your points back is still relevant because the points represent how large a portion of your army the unit takes up. Now, between the squad it maims and the attention it draws from the enemy, is it worth the points? That is entirely up to you and your army composition. Personally I wouldn't, but I hate throw away units.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/08/07 18:37:13
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2009/08/07 18:47:51
Subject: Maybe starting 40K?
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Foolproof Falcon Pilot
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The rest of the SM army may gun down the Kroot, or they may not. There are alot of other variables here. Cover, going to ground, more pressing targets for the other SM units. Basically, there is no guarentee that the rest of the army will be able to focus on the Kroot.
It is best to look at each caombat as an isolated incident, unless we have full army lists, a descrpition of the entire table, and a play by play for each turn.
So, since we cannot posibly know the variables of th rest of the game within the context of Kroot vs. SM tac squad, I stand by the evaulation that Kroot can be useful in their role, and that they are not required to be a throw away unit.
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2009/08/07 18:53:12
Subject: Re:Maybe starting 40K?
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Buttons Should Be Brass, Not Gold!
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People will probably laugh at me for suggesting this but I recommend: Dark Eldar
Lots of high speed moving guns with good accuracy. Gun quality is excellent, with strong AT in dark lances, strong anti-heavy-infantry in Blasters and Disintegrators and copious amounts of mostly rubbish small arms vs unarmored targets. Troops and vehicles have little to zero armor, but are cheap and plentiful. Have some very fast close combat units. Basically, the army is a glass cannon.
The only bad thing about the list is the models are very dated. But good things can be accomplished by mixing the Dark Eldar range with the Fantasy Dark Elves.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/08/07 18:54:53
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2009/08/07 21:22:05
Subject: Maybe starting 40K?
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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DarkHound wrote:Blast it John, you keep making me think Gwar! is back with that new Avatar.
Very well, I'll revert...
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2009/08/07 23:11:23
Subject: Maybe starting 40K?
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Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter
Australia (Recently ravaged by the Hive Fleet Ginger Overlord)
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Mabye those armies win becuase the competetive playas CHOOSE those armies becuase they think those armies win.
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Smacks wrote:
After the game, pack up all your miniatures, then slap the guy next to you on the ass and say.
"Good game guys, now lets hit the showers" |
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2009/08/07 23:58:57
Subject: Re:Maybe starting 40K?
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Camouflaged Zero
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I generally try to avoid `tier' discussion, but there is little doubt they exist. In short, if you get two players of equal skill and experience, then put them against each other with the same army and the same list, they should get a lot of draws and an equal number of minor wins, over time. If you give them the same army, but one fields a fun list, while the other fields a hard one, the hard one will win every time. Now, give those players the hardest possible list, each from different books. In an ideal world, they should get lots of draws and minor wins, but it does not work like that. To some extent, this can come down to bad match-ups (eg Mech Sisters vs Hoard Orks), but some armies are just going to lord it over others under any said edition of the rules. These are the tiers. Now, where any said army fits it entirely up to debate. I personally think Tau are horridly under-rated, as I have seen/heard of some amazing stories of skilled Tau players blitzing the hardest tournament lists around (in the hands of other good players).
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Order of the Ebon Chalice, 2,624pts
Officio Assassinorum, 570pts
Hive Fleet Viracocha, 3,673pts
562pts |
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2009/08/08 02:42:17
Subject: Re:Maybe starting 40K?
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Fresh-Faced New User
Depends on the time of day really.
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First off once again I want to say thanks to everyone for being helpful. It is appreciated that you are giving me a great deal of information to start from.
The one thing that has me a bit worried about the conversation about the Tau is that I am a horrible dice roller. As in I am considered a competent player and will give anyone a run for the money but the dice will do me in every time. As a gag gift I was given a pair of dice in a pathology biohazard specimen bag. From personal observation I say that I am probably right around 80% of expected hits on average. EX: For every 100 expected hits I get about 80.
Will this make the Tau an army that would be to brittle for me to play with?
Edited to add: I do not play tournaments and have no desire to. I have seen friendships split over tournament play and results. Also all of the worst examples of sportsmanship I have seen in tournaments. I am a special education teacher, I do this to get away from the real world.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/08/08 02:47:51
Signatures?!? Signatures?!? We dont need no stinking signatures!!! |
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2009/08/08 03:13:51
Subject: Re:Maybe starting 40K?
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Sneaky Striking Scorpion
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they have a bit of a learning curve.... but if you can remember all your options during your turn, you can do reasonably well even with a couple of mistakes.........
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7000+ Aliatoc Eldar
3000+ DeamonHunters
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2009/08/08 04:22:12
Subject: Maybe starting 40K?
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Arch Magos w/ 4 Meg of RAM
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That's really funny Cerberus. My Tau friend is also a terrible roller. He is also just getting over that learning curve, and there really is one. He used to not be able to win a game. He learned to suppliment his bad rolling by taking units that offered re-rolls and forced things on a 2+. Then he started getting draws once he wrapped his head around actually using his infantry (it is tempting just to play the game with your tanks and suits). Now he's starting to win games by a good margin, but you really have to know what all of your options are all the time, and even now he sometimes forgets to manage his suits. EDIT: Oh yes, and don't exclude local tournements entirely. They let you play against armies you might otherwise not get a chance to, and they are going to power-level (heh) your list building skill. They are a lot of fun once you can build an army that will give you a chance, and even more so once you get the tactical prowess to match.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/08/08 04:42:18
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2009/08/09 15:56:58
Subject: Maybe starting 40K?
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Boosting Space Marine Biker
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I would say space marines . Space Marines are hard to kill and are good at range and you could always take drop pods to make them turn up in places where your opponent doesn't expect them
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/08/09 15:57:12
COVER IS FOR THE WEAK |
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2009/08/10 04:03:28
Subject: Re:Maybe starting 40K?
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Fresh-Faced New User
Depends on the time of day really.
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I had thought about Space Marines starting out. The problem I see is that Everyone and their brother has a SM force in the local group.
Besides if they didnt go to Parris Island or San Diego they arent really Marines. HMRM are included in the real Marines force.
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Signatures?!? Signatures?!? We dont need no stinking signatures!!! |
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2009/08/10 05:09:23
Subject: Re:Maybe starting 40K?
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Foolproof Falcon Pilot
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Cerberus wrote: Besides if they didnt go to San Diego they arent really Marines.
Corrected that for ya
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2009/08/10 07:03:44
Subject: Maybe starting 40K?
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Pragmatic Collabirator
Dayton, OH
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I'll second IG (veteran, possibly valkyrie), space marines/chaos marines, tau, and eldar as being the 4 armies you want to examine.
Tau define ranged firepower and mobility, but may not feel elite enough to you when you get to the actual bodies.
Eldar are pretty mobile and elite, with good ranged firepower.
Space marines are quite elite and have relatively good mobility and firepower.
Guard is impressively endowed with firepower, but not very mobile and ranging from relatively un-elite to downright expendable depending on what kind of infantry you're talking.
I include guard because if you're a vehicle/tank man, guard will provide, even though it's the most static of the options -- if the vehicles are your thing, then considering the army that lets you easily field over a dozen isn't something you can immediately write off.
Tau and eldar occupy slightly different variations on the high mobility end of the spectrum. Both are well-targetted towards your specifications. Tau tend to be amazing tech (weapons and suits) with average stat-lines backing them up, eldar tend towards good gear with elite stat-lines to operate it.
Marines aren't to be overlooked, though, as they're almost as elite as you can get. They're not slouches at weaponry, with a host of good tanks available to them and medium to heavy infantry that offer quality shooting and the skills to land the shots. They mechanize well to provide average mobility on the cheap.
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2009/08/16 00:49:40
Subject: Re:Maybe starting 40K?
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Fresh-Faced New User
Depends on the time of day really.
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Once again thank you everyone for your help and advice. After sitting down at the FLGS with the 40K group they all say I need to start with a SM force. Between learning the rules and my dice, it will keep me competitive and not going 0-105 with a Tau force starting out.
They promised that they would assemble a 750 point force for me to sit down and play with at the next 40K Saturday at the FLGS.
The next big question is what Chapter?
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Signatures?!? Signatures?!? We dont need no stinking signatures!!! |
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2009/08/16 01:05:51
Subject: Maybe starting 40K?
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Arch Magos w/ 4 Meg of RAM
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For long ranged, semi-mobile dakka? Well, Imperial Fists have the biggest guns, but they are seige experts so you won't be speeding around. They take lots of Vindicators and demolision weapons. The highest mobility is between White Scars and Ravenguard. The former being more about bikes and hovercraft weapon platforms, the latter being about infiltrating infantry and jetpacking strike teams. Vulkan He'stan and the Salamanders are rocking the metagame, because he boosts everything that is the best for this edition, but like any cheese list, he isn't very fun to play with or against (unless you like that sort of thing). He doesn't really stand for anything you care about though. If you want the most elite army, go Pedro Kantor and the Crimson Fists (they are actually a successor to the Imperial Fists IIRC). He makes Sternguard scoring, meaning you can get away with minimal regular troops. Sternguard can switch between specialized ammo depending on the task and aren't slouches in close combat. They are expensive and will take away from your mobility and big guns however (until you learn how to slim your lists like a pro). Of course, you can go and make your own chapter, or a successor chapter to the Ultramarines (I vote Genesis: http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat1080005&prodId=prod1570000) and just take whatever you think would be fun. It is easy to combine long range fire support with high speed elements, but SMs don't offer a unit that does it in one package.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2009/08/16 01:14:44
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2009/08/16 04:13:10
Subject: Re:Maybe starting 40K?
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Fresh-Faced New User
Depends on the time of day really.
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Thank you Dark Hound for the leads. The Raptors, a successor to the Raven Guard looks interesting.
I'll keep looking but think that if I do start it will be the Ravens.
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Signatures?!? Signatures?!? We dont need no stinking signatures!!! |
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2009/08/16 04:30:52
Subject: Maybe starting 40K?
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Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter
Australia (Recently ravaged by the Hive Fleet Ginger Overlord)
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Stop right there, mate!
If you're going to go for SM, then you must, I repeat MUST go with Blood Angels. They...are...AWESOME. They make Chuck Norris look like an angry grandmother (which is still dangerous, so watch out). Any other choice is heresy and shall be treated as such.
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Smacks wrote:
After the game, pack up all your miniatures, then slap the guy next to you on the ass and say.
"Good game guys, now lets hit the showers" |
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2009/08/16 12:14:36
Subject: Re:Maybe starting 40K?
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Cerberus wrote:I need to start with a SM force. Between learning the rules and my dice, it will keep me competitive and not going 0-105 with a Tau force starting out.
The next big question is what Chapter?
I'd suggest some version of Renegade / Chaos Marines, if only not to be yet another vanilla SM force.
Failing that, play some version of grey Marines - Relictors or Revilers. They'll give you more room to customize into something else, later.
But do yourself a favor and take a look at the robed / knightly / viking marines. If one of those strikes your fancy, then you can start with one of them for flavor & themes.
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