Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

^exactly , Keep playing with the possibilities. This may end up being OP but its a fun idea to play with. I can always put a no suit restriction if needed.

I choose the Vendetta because it had less of an IG weapons wargear dependence/conflict than the valk and that it seemed to mesh with the Tau better. Honestly, The Tau would just retro-fit the thing with railguns but that would be too, too much. Farsight would retrofit any valks into a harder hitting vehicle, so I took the vendetta path.

I like your "training suit" idea a lot actually.

Perhaps having the Gue'vesa within the Tau Empire only able to act as Infantry Platoons with the option of Devilfish transport makes more sense. Humans trained in a generic human fashion, whilst still fitting into Tau mobile warfare.

The Tau Empire wouldn't want to use the more archaic Imperial tech such as Sentinels....but for Farsight this would make some sense.

Che-Vito wrote:I like your "training suit" idea a lot actually.

Perhaps having the Gue'vesa within the Tau Empire only able to act as Infantry Platoons with the option of Devilfish transport makes more sense. Humans trained in a generic human fashion, whilst still fitting into Tau mobile warfare.

The Tau Empire wouldn't want to use the more archaic Imperial tech such as Sentinels....but for Farsight this would make some sense.

As do I, With the XV15s have it so they are troops but you can't have more suit teams than FW squads or something to help balance it out.

Yes that would be pretty nice

They are now in the codex as a 1 per army. Gave them the name Battlesuit Shas'Ui to denote that they are vets recieving a generic battlesuit upgrade. Story is that after spending the alloted time in these generic suits, the Shas'ui progress to become Shas,Vre that specialize a bit more.

This has me tweeking the rank track to bring the Shas'El back in by changing the definition of 'Vre from Hero to Specialist and 'El from Noble to Hero. In this dex there are no Broadside, Stealth, or Crisis Shas'ui. Those units now start with Shas'vre and can have a Shas'El team leader upgrade.

Battlesuit Shas'Ui are a troop unit that do not count towards the armies compulsory troop choices.

Unit is 4-8 Shas'Ui
Cost is 25pts per model with a bonded team leader that adds 5 pts
Unit may take drones and target locks but no other wargear excepting that which they were issued.

Including this unit has allowed for changes to the FoC and is helping to speed things up a bit.


PS, As things stand, Aun'Va is out of the Book. It seems that anything that he might do to be effective would be more appropriate for an Apoc unit. May change my mind but will be looking for opinions on his possible abilities.

Should he, Have the ability to call in an Air strike?

Maybe he allows for 1 extra unit to be taken if the Heavy support slots are full?

Would it be better where in any turn Aun'Va takes a wound, any unit with LoS to him can take 1 extra shot per model in their next round of shooting?

Aun'va opens up the question, "Should I represent the rank track within the Ethereals by having different ranks with increasing levels of ability?"

BTW, Does anyone have any feedback about the Ethereals getting a jet-pack option?

That is enough for now. Will wait for some feedback.

focusedfire wrote:^exactly , Keep playing with the possibilities. This may end up being OP but its a fun idea to play with. I can always put a no suit restriction if needed.

I choose the Vendetta because it had less of an IG weapons wargear dependence/conflict than the valk and that it seemed to mesh with the Tau better. Honestly, The Tau would just retro-fit the thing with railguns but that would be too, too much. Farsight would retrofit any valks into a harder hitting vehicle, so I took the vendetta path.

Valks and vendets are Imperial Navy, not Guard. Tau would see them as lesser tech and not even bother using their scrap.

Sanchez01 wrote:

focusedfire wrote:^exactly , Keep playing with the possibilities. This may end up being OP but its a fun idea to play with. I can always put a no suit restriction if needed.

I choose the Vendetta because it had less of an IG weapons wargear dependence/conflict than the valk and that it seemed to mesh with the Tau better. Honestly, The Tau would just retro-fit the thing with railguns but that would be too, too much. Farsight would retrofit any valks into a harder hitting vehicle, so I took the vendetta path.

Valks and vendets are Imperial Navy, not Guard. Tau would see them as lesser tech and not even bother using their scrap.

Not true. On frontier worlds, the novels specify that both Lasguns and Pulse rifles are available for the Gue'vesa. Although Farsight has access to better tech., he is in a pinch that the Tau Empire doesn't find itself in. It wouldn't be entirely surprising to me if Farsight did use lower tech equipment if he needed to arm available troops.

Well Gue'vesa are not tau, they would use rocks if it meant surviving.

But the thing is, Valkyries are under the Imperial Navy, and unless they left parts of the Navy on the crusade then the Tau would only have the burned out hulls left over from beating the Imperium's butt. Well maybe an abandoned base would hold a few, but I really don't see the Tua using them at all. After all their fighters are great performance, their Mantas are all the Drop Transports the Tau really need.

I also bet that the Tech Priest would sabotage most if not all of the "Tech" before letting it fall. And unless it was maintained by Tau mechanics, the Humans (Which were not allowed to do the upkeep) would have no idea on now to keep it running.

The Highest position a Human can hold (from what I saw) was Squad Leader... and even at that could one squad leader order a firewarrior? (I don't know)

To me it seems like a million to one that a Valkyrie would be in Tau service. Just like you really don't see a Russ fighting for them when a Hammerhead can do so much more, and do it so much better.

What do you think about a gunboat version of an Orca? Or a modified Barracuda for priority target elimination? With their arrogant attitudes they would most likely go Tau Tech... O'Shovah is the only one I have seen that uses a non-Tau weapon.

focus on the codex stuff lol. this would be cool if it influenced the next edition of the tau codex.

I think fixing etherals is pretty hard and am interested if you can make them a decent HQ choice.

Keep it coming.

focusedfire wrote:They are now in the codex as a 1 per army. Gave them the name Battlesuit Shas'Ui to denote that they are vets recieving a generic battlesuit upgrade. Story is that after spending the alloted time in these generic suits, the Shas'ui progress to become Shas,Vre that specialize a bit more.

Like the idea, makes sense, and adds some flavour. I applaud you.

focusedfire wrote:Cost is 25pts per model with a bonded team leader that adds 5 pts
Unit may take drones and target locks but no other wargear excepting that which they were issued.

I would say just include the team leader and bonding all in the unit (in other words, don't make it an option). I imagine the unit having a team leader who helps them progress into full Shas'vre, and also the squad having to function like a unit to survive. Having them Bonded makes a lot of sense.

focusedfire wrote: As things stand, Aun'Va is out of the Book. It seems that anything that he might do to be effective would be more appropriate for an Apoc unit. May change my mind but will be looking for opinions on his possible abilities.

Possibly an Apoc unit, personally I would be okay with him being delegated to being an objective marker for the rest of time. I like Aun'Shi because he was an Ethereal that involved himself in the combat...much like special characters from other armies.

focusedfire wrote:BTW, Does anyone have any feedback about the Ethereals getting a jet-pack option?

Eh, I don't think so. Jetpack units are usually deep-striking, or at the least highly mobile. I don't see the Ethereals rolling around with the Stealthsuits or the Crisis Suits.

Correct me if I am wrong please. But ain't Ethereals kinda like the beloved Store Manager? They have great plans for the store, the employees love them, and if they get fired (Die) it ruins store moral?

So they should suck, stats wise, but offer great bonuses. Something Like all Tau may re-roll one failed moral check per turn, 6" or 12" fearless aura, and maybe a body guard or two. And keep Price of Failure

You have to keep the Price of Failure. I would suggest it giving the whole army some kind of benefit like everyone has leadership 10 or everyone is fearless or something along those lines.

I play gunline tau sometimes and use shadowsun for the leadership bonus besides that shadowsun just sits there.

Sanchez01 wrote: the Humans (Which were not allowed to do the upkeep) would have no idea on now to keep it running.

Quote this, I have read nothing either way. The question is, why WOULDN'T humans be allow to?

Sanchez01 wrote: The Highest position a Human can hold (from what I saw) was Squad Leader... and even at that could one squad leader order a firewarrior? (I don't know)

Again, all you have seen in the mini's game is evidence of Gue'vesa'la and Gue'vesa'ui, is there higher? Probably. There is no writing that I have seen that has evidenced against it. The author of the codex doesn't seem to have focused in on this yet though.

Sanchez01 wrote: To me it seems like a million to one that a Valkyrie would be in Tau service. Just like you really don't see a Russ fighting for them when a Hammerhead can do so much more, and do it so much better.

Again, why vehicles and such are far more likely with Farsight. Plain and simple, he has less to work with so I could see him using what he can.

Sanchez01 wrote:What do you think about a gunboat version of an Orca? Or a modified Barracuda for priority target elimination? With their arrogant attitudes they would most likely go Tau Tech... O'Shovah is the only one I have seen that uses a non-Tau weapon.

Well Tau tech is better...arrogant though? A discussion for another thread. The Orca and Barracuda haven't been address yet by the author, but I imagine if/when he gets around to FW vehicles and Apoc rules...there will absolutely be room for suggestion on those!

Che-Vito wrote:

Quote this, I have read nothing either way. The question is, why WOULDN'T humans be allow to?

Because they are not Adeptus Mechanicus. One thing I really hate about the Imperium is how they let these cog-head heretics have a monopoly on human tech. All Guard and Navy Tech is protected and maintained by the Mech Priests and the such, and Space Marines are taken care of my Tech-Marines

Che-Vito wrote:
Again, all you have seen in the mini's game is evidence of Gue'vesa'la and Gue'vesa'ui, is there higher? Probably. There is no writing that I have seen that has evidenced against it. The author of the codex doesn't seem to have focused in on this yet though.

Fair enough, but do you think a Shas'la would take orders from a Gue'vesa'ui? And a quick question, would a Fire Warrior take orders from a Kroot shaper or tribe leader?

Che-Vito wrote:
Again, why vehicles and such are far more likely with Farsight. Plain and simple, he has less to work with so I could see him using what he can.

But Farsight is not the Empire, And could you provide a link (or page number) that shows he uses Human tech in battle?

Che-Vito wrote:

Well Tau tech is better...arrogant though? A discussion for another thread. The Orca and Barracuda haven't been address yet by the author, but I imagine if/when he gets around to FW vehicles and Apoc rules...there will absolutely be room for suggestion on those!

Well when it comes to talking about those, I would love to jump in as for the arrogant, every race (maybe not orks) is arrogant, just some more then others *cough eldar *cough *cough


Automatically Appended Next Post:

acreedon wrote:You have to keep the Price of Failure. I would suggest it giving the whole army some kind of benefit like everyone has leadership 10 or everyone is fearless or something along those lines.

I play gunline tau sometimes and use shadowsun for the leadership bonus besides that shadowsun just sits there.

Well I was thinking something like this.

Aun is near!: While the Ethereal is alive, all Tau (not kroot, vespide, Gue'vesa) are able to re-roll one failed moral save per turn.
I See the Aun!: All Tau (not kroot, vespide, Gue'vesa) in LOS of the Ethereal do not suffer negatives to their leadership (ei being under 50% and the such)
Body Guards: 0-2 Body Guards or 0-3 Shield Drones (For a price of course)
For the Great Good!: All Tau (not kroot, vespide, Gue'vesa) within 6" or 12" (Depending on rank) become fearless.
Price of failure:

Sanchez01 wrote:
Because they are not Adeptus Mechanicus. One thing I really hate about the Imperium is how they let these cog-head heretics have a monopoly on human tech. All Guard and Navy Tech is protected and maintained by the Mech Priests and the such, and Space Marines are taken care of my Tech-Marines

Wouldn't be that hard for the Tau to figure out, and instruct humans in. This is pure speculation, but I don't think that it is much of a stretch.

Sanchez01 wrote:
Fair enough, but do you think a Shas'la would take orders from a Gue'vesa'ui? And a quick question, would a Fire Warrior take orders from a Kroot shaper or tribe leader?

I don't have an answer there for you. Speculation could go either way.

Sanchez01 wrote:
But Farsight is not the Empire, And could you provide a link (or page number) that shows he uses Human tech in battle?

Like I said, the information on vehicles and such isn't there...that is all speculation (which the author is doing a bit of, but I think it's fair speculation.)
The information on having the ability to produce Lasguns can be found here: http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Gue%27vesa

The link actually indicates the Tau Empire, not Farsight. Since FocusedFire is writing the Codex, he can write in a bit of his own fluff on the subject.

Che-Vito wrote:
Wouldn't be that hard for the Tau to figure out, and instruct humans in. This is pure speculation, but I don't think that it is much of a stretch.

No, you are right, not much of a stretch at all, the problem is that the techs would blow it up first.. the only way the Tau would get their hands on it are these two ways, 1. they capture in an attack, but the chances of getting even 50% of the stock unharmed is low to none, as the techs would have started desroying everything in a loss .. and 2. a general defected, but they would not be able to bring much over... so a valk would be more rare then a titan

Che-Vito wrote:

I don't have an answer there for you. Speculation could go either way.

oh, i was really hoping for an answer on that one.

Che-Vito wrote:

Like I said, the information on vehicles and such isn't there...that is all speculation (which the author is doing a bit of, but I think it's fair speculation.)
The information on having the ability to produce Lasguns can be found here: http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Gue%27vesa

The link actually indicates the Tau Empire, not Farsight. Since FocusedFire is writing the Codex, he can write in a bit of his own fluff on the subject.

hmm. i just don't see it happening. and parts would be a nightmare lol

ARRGGGHHH, Post eaten by display driver crash.

I'm going to go back and redo now

@Sanchez- The reasons that I'm goint this route are many. I will try to address your concerns point by point. Then I'll give some pages from both Tau codices with quick points explaining were it says what I'm quoting.

1)Yes, the Valks are Imperial navy but some do get permantly assigned to the IG.

2)Next, this is the frontier and is home to free mercenary companies, rogue traders, and 20 imperial worlds that declared their independence in favor of dealing with the Tau empire. Any of these would more than likely have their own Valkeries, Sentinels and support personnel.

3) If their are no support personnel it would be a fair point of trade for the Tau to help these worlds to be independent by teaching them how to maintain their own equipment. It would also be logistically easier to work within existing frameworks rather than building completely new ones immediately.

4)These are viable points of why there would be access to the Imperial equipment that I'm proposing to be used.
I am writing this with a mind to tricks GW would use to sell more models. From that view point it isn't that hard to beleive, Is it?

5)Angkor Prok established that aliens can lead fire warriors and fire caste in the Tau Empire. I know he was a white dwarf Chapter approved but for a while, he was recognized and he is still a part of the Tau back history. He was the Kroot leader that made the pact for the nkroot becoming a part of the Tau Empire.

6)Don't care for the Orca and will resist it becoming a part of the army. Last thing the Tau need is another unit that doesn't kill anything in and of itself. Now I have designed a Tau superheavy tank called the Great White that uses a Sky Ray wing on top of an Orca and has a Hammerhead Turret and gun system on the belly. It would be mounted on a Valk Flight stand. I might run just two Hammerhead turrets. I'll get around to the project some day.......also, don't know if the Tau are really all that arrogant. They are at least willing to work with other races.

7)Was thinking that the Ethereal gives +1 leadership to any unit with LoS to him and a few other things that I am saving as suprises. Why the ultimate price needs to stay is beyond me. No other army has that level of a negative for losing a single model. I'm keeping the name but reworking to better fit the fluff. Tau 1st codex has fluff about the Tau steadily moving forward pumping round after round into the enemy in anger over the enemies actions of having killed the Ethereal.


8)Again, this is the frontier so isolated worlds, rogue traders, and free companies have their own scavenged/looted equipment that they already know how to care for. Some of this comes from glimpses of Rogue Trader books but most comes from the 1st and 2nd Tau codices. The Tau got a few worlds virtually untouched with their industry still intact so replacement parts are not that hard to imagine.


Now for points from the codices.
First codex pages numbered:

50) The first codices entry for Farsight, under break-away faction, gives a better explanation for why Farsight has army limitations than the second codex does.
51) Entire page is an inquistion report that deals with the break-away Tau mercenary faction that is commanded by a Commander Farsight.Whole page is a good read and leaves a lot of room for concept exploration. This is why I am taking Farsight as more of a Mercenary army now.
54)Shows the Imperium itself negotiating with the Xenos known as Tau. The Adept and the Imperial Fist Captain are greeted by a Human and they negotiate with an Ethereal.
63)Last column, middle pargraph mentions human nobles making use of Tau Battlesuits.

Second Codex

8) Under Imperial Contact, Second column, last sentence Speaks of Farsight moving in after the crusade ships leave to fight against the Tyranids. Says he assimilates groups of human deserters(Yeah it is their fault the fleet left them behind)and renegades.
11)Tau and humanity explains how the Human worlds are what is now called the Farsight enclave

Very insightful thank you.

1 and 2) It is rare for the Guard to have them permanently assigned. And for it to be rare in an empire of over a million worlds what are the chances for one to me among the 20-ish worlds dealing with the Tau Empire.

7) That +1 works for me, but as for the death of the Ethereal, its based on fluff right? I would vote to keep it the way it is or even to make it more of a loss for the tau...

Sanchez01 wrote:Very insightful thank you.

1 and 2) It is rare for the Guard to have them permanently assigned. And for it to be rare in an empire of over a million worlds what are the chances for one to me among the 20-ish worlds dealing with the Tau Empire.

7) That +1 works for me, but as for the death of the Ethereal, its based on fluff right? I would vote to keep it the way it is or even to make it more of a loss for the tau...

In response to the Guard having a unit assigned...again, quote where this is rare. I know nothing either way. It isn't that much of a stretch in my imagination.

As for the death of an Ethereal, what about this possibility:

Death of an Ethereal: When the Tau lose an Ethereal, they may temporarily lose sight of their pre-planned battle plans and strategies. Every Tau (not Kroot, Vespid, etc.) must take a leadership check. If the test is failed, the squad must immediately advance 6" towards and fire at the nearest enemy during the next shooting phase.

These checks will continue until the leadership check is passed, or the unit is engaged in assault. Checks will continue to be made at the beginning of the Tau players turn.

This represents the fluff (continued advance combined with rapid fire), is not broken, and also can be quite detrimental to a Tau player if it happens.

Quote from the Guard Codex:

"With a few notable exceptions, Valkyries are under the control of the Imperial Navy and are attached to Imperial Guard regiments on an as need basis."

As for the Ethereal, That doesn't sound right. It should be more along the lines as All Tau (not alien allies) must take a leadership test, If failed they fallback.

Sanchez01 wrote:Quote from the Guard Codex:

"With a few notable exceptions, Valkyries are under the control of the Imperial Navy and are attached to Imperial Guard regiments on an as need basis."

As for the Ethereal, That doesn't sound right. It should be more along the lines as All Tau (not alien allies) must take a leadership test, If failed they fallback.

Read the fluff in the Codex. When an Ethereal dies...the Tau go into their own version of battle rage. It consists of then pouring fire into the enemy, and slowly advancing. Having them fall back if they fail a test is completely contrary to the fluff. (note, what you suggested is more or less the rule, as it is) I would give you a page number in the 4th Edition Codex, but I am not exactly sure where mine is at the moment.

As for the Valkyries...meh...FocusedFire can take some flufftistic freedom.

What do you mean by flufftistic freedom?

that was my point, keep the rule the same, but make his alive buffs better... I will look for what you are talking about when i find mine too.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
One thing I would like to see in the 5th ed. Tau codex would be Gue'vesa units.

Something along these lines:
Stats = Guardsmen but with a 4+ save
Point Cost = Just a little more then a Fire Warrior (Like 2 points more each.)
Weapon and gear = Same as Fire Warriors, but no drones option.

Now before you yell at me for making them cost more then Fire Warriors, look at the stats... Humans are better then Tau stat wise. Right? And with the same equipment (Firepower) as a Fire Warrior, they should not cost less. (Then people would take more of them then Fire Warriors)

hey, even Tau have some self respect to not have humies fighting all their wars for them

What is that suppose to mean?

It is mainly in there to stop players from crying over the lack of options...

it means...what did it mean? what? huh? what was i saying?

Idk, that's why I asked.

well, according to the fluff from the codex the Tau are really big on Pride in their Empire(see Shadowsun entry)

Yeah, and that is one of the reasons they would not use Human Tech. But they would still use Human Cannonfodder

ok,ok, but at least limit the amount of non Tau present at any Battle Field so that if there is a Tau Victory the Photo op won't show all those humans/non-Tau posing on Tau territory


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Last i read, the Tau life cycle was 40 human years so each "generation" I'm assuming is going to come every 10-15 years.
Which is almost twice the growth rate of human spawn.

well there would be a 0-2 limit to them each choice being 10 models

@Sanchez- Some of this comes from that I really like the overall idea of a Mercenary codex. But, GW will never do an independent one. The best that can be hoped for is a mercenary sub-list in each of the Races codices. This is what I am going for with Farsight. I think his army will be compelling and characterful by working with the current limited equipment handicap.

This gets to my point about the Valks. The real emphasis is that this area of space is kind of like the Barbary Coast or the Carribean Islands during their piracy periods. Lawless areas that have pirates, black marketeers, and mercenaries(Privateers, Rogue traders, and Free Companies). A place where you can get anything you want as long as you have the money or goods to trade for such.

As for the ethereal rule, Che-vito did a great job of explaining how the rule for the ethereals just doesn't fit.

Now about your Gue'Vesa idea. You are pretty much dead on with your thoughts of stats and number of units. Did you read in the other thread where the Storms were 0-2 in this codex?
I'll explain the back story of how Storm Troopers are fighting with Farsight.

Farsights Enclave worlds still represent the strongest military force in the area. Still, even with his strength, survival of all of these worlds depends upon cooperation.

Farsight has a string of worlds(some human) under his direct rule and there are other independent worlds that have a form of loose trade alliance with him. These worlds not directly under Farsights control, garrison themselves by raising up their own militaries or by hiring the Mercenaries, pirates or rogue traders.

Farsight trades tech and military training to these independent worlds for necessary raw resources or extra manpower. He, also, calls upon the enclave worlds for limited reinforcements and equipement when needed.

Farsight negotiates vigorously to get the few Imperial Items that can be of use and then copies them. He only uses the equipment and personnel that can actually work within Farsight's doctrines of war.

Upon one of his enclave worlds Farsight has established, with the help of some surviving storm troopers, a military training facility that trains the Gue'vesa to a level equal to that of the Schola Progenim.

Now, I picked the Storms because
1)Their armor and equippment looks about right. Human versions of the sleeker Tau equip.
2)They had less wargear conflicts(No power fists, Fewer special weapon options and no heavy weapon options.)
3)Less basic rules conflicts(No Orders system means not having to take an IG HQ and all of its extra wargear options.
4)Easy to explain the hot-shots improved weapon profile.
5)Less griping from guard players because they don't think they are worth anything.
6)Their special mission rules fits nicely with the Merc. mentality .

The other two units are because the Farsight takes a hard hit in the Fast attack in this codex and because of how the models fit thematically. The list looks like this:

2 Storm Trooper Squads(Non-scoring) Take the Vespids slot in the FoC
1 Scout Sentinel Squadron-Replaces Remora Jetbikes
1 Vendetta Squadron-Replaces Pirahnas

May decide to include 2 penal squads as troops option but buying the storm squads will be mandatory to get access to the other equipement. Think the penal legion squads would fit nice game and theme wise but just can't justify doing so fluff wise.

Tell me what you think. I'll post some of Farsights restricted troops in a day or three.