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Lord-Loss wrote:

Vladsimpaler wrote:
But look at it this way: The Phoenix Lords are second to the Avatar in fighting.

In Fulgrim, Fulgrim smashes his hand through a Avatars Skull, its an awesome fight and he totally destroyes it.

I find it kinda funny that the avatar's are always getting beaten up (falling off of bridges, getting chocked to death etc.).
I also find it funny that the wraithlord took a wound off of fulgrim when the avatar did not.

JEB_Stuart wrote:Well, since the phoenix lords can't really die, wouldn't that mean that they will win over primarchs? Since the primarchs are mortal they can and will die, on the other hand the phoenix lords experience, memories, etc are immortal and therefore will eventually win over the primarchs. Just a thought.

It's been speculated that the Primarchs are essentially immortal, but where they differ from the Phoenix Lords is that once they're gone, they're gone. Phoenix Lords on the other hand enter what's essentially a state of hibernation until inhabited by another "host". My guess is that they're on par with one another in general, but excel in their own specialities.

I think of the differences in a manner of tactics vs. strategy: Space Marines (in general) are trained for warfare, the large scale combat where coordinated application of force determines success while Aspects are trained for a specific application of force or method of combat. I use the analogy of a martial arts master vs. a military general: both may know how to fight, but the master can defeat the general in hand to hand while the general can direct troops to outflank and neutralize the master.

This is simplified of course, because you don't live for 10k years and not learn tactics taught by your contemporaries, especially when you were all taught by the same instructor, but that's my $.02.

Cheese Elemental wrote:Actually, C'Tan do have very good stats. The Nightbringer is S10 and pretty much kills whatever he hits, but he's slow as gak. They aren't true gods; they are just very powerful formless entities trapped inside material forms. The Chaos, Ork, and Eldar gods are far more powerful than the C'Tan, and that's one reason why they want to seal off the Warp from the material universe.

The Phoenix Lords, OTOH, would be no match for the Primarchs. Primarchs are guys who can take on Greater Daemons, (Sanguinius), destroy Titans (Russ), slay Warbosses much larger than Ghazghkull (Horus), kill full-grown trained Eldar warriors as a baby (Angron), and teleport everything on a planet into the Warp (Magnus).

Well, Maugan Ra did pretty much walk right by abbadon's 13th black crusade and pull entire craftworld out of the warp before his late morning brunch. He probably didn't even take a shower or have his cup of coffee yet.

Im on the band wagon of the Primarchs winning over pheonix lords. They arnt super human. Regular SM are super human. Primarchs are about 10 steps over super human. 1 on 1 a Primarch would dispatch a phoenix lord with ease. Just read some of the fluff. Im not saying that the Lords are weak. They are infact the baddest of the bad when it comes to Eldar. But the Primarchs were made to basically be GODS on the battle field.

Also about the phoenix lords still being alive, Im pretty sure thats because that role gets replaced by another badass over time (kind of like the phantom) Where as the Primarchs were put into the most insanely badass fights and battles, saw their whole chapter be destroyed and went on a "lets see how many I can kill before I go down" killing spree. Trust me compairing a lord to a Primarch would be like putting a shovel to a backhoe. They both do it well, but the backhoe has hydrolics, is bigger and is made from welded steel lol.

I think of the differences in a manner of tactics vs. strategy: Space Marines (in general) are trained for warfare, the large scale combat where coordinated application of force determines success while Aspects are trained for a specific application of force or method of combat. I use the analogy of a martial arts master vs. a military general: both may know how to fight, but the master can defeat the general in hand to hand while the general can direct troops to outflank and neutralize the master.

My opinion EXACTLY.

1 on 1, allowing each phoenix lord and primarch to use whatever the hell he wanted, in whatever style they wanted, phoenix lords would own the primarchs

I haven't read, well, any books that even hints at the capabilities of a Lord. Except whats in the codex's. The lack of an invul save doesn't make sense. Some kind of 5+ at least if you pay a hundred pts. for the model. I went into an Apocalypse game with all the lords, each commanding a full squad of their chosen aspect. The results were disastrous. Magan Ra died in one round of combat with abbadon. Jain Zar fell to the Manreaper of Typhus. Karandras was the only one not die in that battle and only because he was in the Shadow Sect formation. (I was starry eyed and thought PL could match Chaos terminators. I learned quickly.)

My take is the Phoenix Lords have no connection to psychic powers. Table top or otherwise. Which makes them a purely martial. The lords don't have strength from their gods backing them. And since the path of the warrior seems to be disconnected from the path of the Seer. No psychic powers are provided either. As far as the invul save goes they should all have a basic 4+ invul if a basic warlock has one. It would make them at least, balanced.

I see Primarchs as being the stronger too.
I know someone mentioned how ancient and powerful the Eldar were, but then the Primarchs are the personal creations of the Emperor, who is (now we know from all the new fluff) an ancient and incredibly powerful being himself.

Voronesh wrote:
If the Pheonix Lords didnt have rules, i guess they would be considered mostly equal to Primarchs. Primarchs are still that, human. Implanting a set of well implants doesnt make them Superhuman. Cause where do you draw the line? Doping eg for the Tour de France (i like to call it the wolrds biggest show of pharmaceutical power) makes you achieve stuff unable for a normal human. Theres stuff which you can achieve with training "Being very fast", and ten theres stuff which needs external help "achieving an olympic record currently".

Primarchs didn't have implants. They were fully organic.

Havent you heard of the rhandra dandra (maybe misspelled)? The time when all the phoenex lords will come together to kill all of Chaos. What the imperium (and necron) wish they could do. Besides, the avatar is in thousands of pieces and is each 1/1000 of an almost killed god.

The phoenex lords working together wouldmprobably kill the primarchs, simply because the Eldar are all about combining the powers of individual parts to create an unstopablr force. TEAMWORK!

fludit wrote:Havent you heard of the rhandra dandra (maybe misspelled)? The time when all the phoenex lords will come together to kill all of Chaos. What the imperium (and necron) wish they could do. Besides, the avatar is in thousands of pieces and is each 1/1000 of an almost killed god.

Because surely the Eldar have it all right and wouldn't be biased in the least...

fludit wrote:

The phoenex lords working together wouldmprobably kill the primarchs, simply because the Eldar are all about combining the powers of individual parts to create an unstopablr force. TEAMWORK!

Go Power Rangers!

Alpharius wrote:
Go Power Rangers!

I prefer Voltron, personally...

Form Blazing Sword!

By the Dark Prince, this is getting ridonkulous.

...you're the lucky one Shelegelah, you've alreadt torn out your eyes. Me? I have to sit through and watch this.
On the other hand.

GO! GO! POWER RANGERS!!!!

Gavin Thorne wrote:

Alpharius wrote:
Go Power Rangers!

I prefer Voltron, personally...

Form Blazing Sword!

Very good call - I prefer Voltron too, and I'm old enough to have known better too!

I'd say a primarch is better than a phoenix lord.

A phoenix lord is powerful, and definately a threat to a primarch, but the primarch has the upper hand. Lysander and Vulkan and Calgar are all more powerful than phoenix lords on the tabletop, and they're only the most powerful chapter masters.

fludit wrote:Havent you heard of the rhandra dandra (maybe misspelled)? The time when all the phoenex lords will come together to kill all of Chaos. What the imperium (and necron) wish they could do. Besides, the avatar is in thousands of pieces and is each 1/1000 of an almost killed god.

The phoenex lords working together wouldmprobably kill the primarchs, simply because the Eldar are all about combining the powers of individual parts to create an unstopablr force. TEAMWORK!

The way I read it, all of the pheonix lords will DIE, and when every last eldar is dead, their souls will coagulate into a new god that will destroy chaos and reincarnate the eldar race and resurrect their golden age.

Unlike the Primarchs, the Phoenix Lords become stronger with each incarnation. As they are mini-infinity circuits they are essentially baby gods in the 40k universe. Just like with slaneesh, they just need to accumulate enough souls to become truly powerful.

We can assume at this point of M41, the Phoenix Lords have yet to rise to the level of the primarchs, but they are close, and given another millennia at the rate they kick the bucket they will probably overtake the primarchs in power.

"Baby gods" might be a little much. Unless Greater Daemons are also qualifying for the position.

Well, Greater Daemons don't have the ability to grow in power. Their power levels are strictly regulated by the Chaos God they belong to, and I'm quite sure that no Chaos God would allow a daemon to grow strong enough to threaten their rule. Pheonix Lords, on the other hand, continue to grow in power with no one to say "Nope. Too strong. Stop it now."

I think Greater Daemons can grow in power. There are definitely Greater Daemons who are more powerful than others, and isn't Fateweaver trying to rebel against Tzeentch?

Well, that's the thing, they can grow in power, but only if the Chaos God that created them says so, seeing as these Greater Daemons are nothing but pieces of a Chaos God's essence made manifest. So yes, a Greater Daemon could continue to grow in power, but there would have to be a cap somewhere, as no Chaos God would invest too much energy in one Daemon. As for Fateweaver, the fact that he might be plotting against Tzeentch (I wasn't aware of this, but it would make sense) is just perfect for a servant of Tzeentch. I doubt the Master of Change/Eternal Plotter would let something like this continue unless it fit into his grand master plan (if he has one, that is.)

Well, I have one thing to say...

Pheonix Lords have rules, therefore they are considered roughly balanced.

Primarchs, on the other Hand, have no "Official Rules" Meaning that they must be so full of win, that they must be overpowered...

Shelegelah: Good point on Fateweaver.

I'm not sure that a Phoenix Lord is any less hamstrung, though. They get the soul of every exarch who wears their armor, that's not a huge power base.

Orkeosaurus wrote:Shelegelah: Good point on Fateweaver.

I'm not sure that a Phoenix Lord is any less hamstrung, though. They get the soul of every exarch who wears their armor, that's not a huge power base.

What about maugan ra? I dont think that guy even needs anyone to wear his suit, his consciousness alone is enough to give it sentience. Does this mean he doesnt gain experience?

It would probably mean he's not getting any more souls.

He'd still get better as a fighter, obviously.

Well, a Phoenix Lord wouldn't have the same level cap that a Greater Daemon would have, as there's no one regulating his power level, but you are correct that the souls of every exarch to wear the suit isn't an incredible power source. Therefore I think that a Phoenix Lord's power would continue to grow very slowly, rather than just starting out an incredible man-beast like a Greater Daemon. It would take a while... But eventually they'd get craaaazzy strong. Or so I hope.

And is Maugan Ra seriously not passing down his armor? That's strange.

IIRC, there were rules for primarchs at some point of 2nd edition (in WD?) and the phoenix lords were pretty tough characters at the time as well, but what characters weren't? Then again, you could have an exodite dragon knight champion and eldar space pirates and harlequin armies and warlocks of varying power levels, and, and, and....

Shelegelah wrote:Well, a Phoenix Lord wouldn't have the same level cap that a Greater Daemon would have, as there's no one regulating his power level, but you are correct that the souls of every exarch to wear the suit isn't an incredible power source. Therefore I think that a Phoenix Lord's power would continue to grow very slowly, rather than just starting out an incredible man-beast like a Greater Daemon. It would take a while... But eventually they'd get craaaazzy strong. Or so I hope.

And is Maugan Ra seriously not passing down his armor? That's strange.

Maugan Ra is too cool to die, so he doesn't have to. He's the Leman Russ of the Phoenix Lords. If there's anyone to return the Eldar to glory, it's him.

Not gonna lie, Maugan Ra is incredibly awesome. One of my favorite models, in fact. I have a soft spot for Karandras, though.

So Maugan Ra just hasn't died? That's quite an achievement. Then again, I've never actually read an account of a specific Phoenix Lord dying. Kinda weird.