Dark Eldar Population

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**fludit**

I think the dark Eldar spen more time killing and raiding others, than backstabbing each other. Why kill your own race when you can capture and torture others?
Gladiators are more fun than killing friends, something they can bond over.

**Obsidian**

Breeding and the capture and integration of Craft world Eldar and the Exodites over a few generations who can tell the difference?

Slave -> Gladiator -> Warrior

You would do what you can to survive, and to stop being probed and poked!

**Velour_Fog**

fludit wrote:Gladiators are more fun than killing friends, something they can bend over.

Fixed.

**Emperors Faithful**

Durandal wrote:Kids are just another weapon for the dark eldar. You pop them out and train them, and they are loyal for a while until they get it in their heads that you are weak and old. Then the stupid ones wake up dead while the smart ones either start their own kabals or take yours.

QFT.
Of course, there are place on this PLANET where it would be pretty much just as tough to survive.

**SilverMK2**

They're not evil, just differently good...

**Shaman**

Id say they raid soft targets

Do actually breed

and can live forever through eating souls.

Seems like the should be doing well in the 41st millenium.

**gardeth**

SilverMK2 wrote:They're not evil, just differently good...

No they are irrevocably, iredeemably evil. I would go so far as to say the most evil of the races in 40k. Their debased ways created a Chaos god. Sure now alot of what they do i focused on getting them souls to replace their own, but who if Slaanesh disappeared tomorrow, I don't think the Dark Eldar would stop what they are doing. Why do they do it? Because it feels great and they can!

**penut the butter**

SilverMK2 wrote:They're not evil, just differently good...

QFT. But from a neutral and technical stanpoint good and evil are just names given to different view points.

**Emperors Faithful**

Nope. They're about as evil as you can get without being corrupted by the warp.

**penut the butter**

A perfect example of a view that does not consult other looks at the same subject.

**Emperors Faithful**

But all they're doing is continuing what they did before the fall, just with a bit more motivation?

They get joy from others pain and suffering! How evil do you have to be?

**Minaith1989**

I agree that their one of the most evil races in 40k (if not the most). They have no regard for anyones lives other than their own (and in some cases even that is blurred e.g grotesques), their highly intelligent which means their constantly creating more curel implements/procedures, they toy with their potential victims before unleashing unholy hell upon them and to top it all of they have have arrogance and sinful pride that drives them to the extreme whether it be in battle or out of battle.

Lets face it, their a mess! (but a cool one!).

**Obsidian**

Spoken from the Human point of view they are evil. But I’m sue they don’t see it that way. They are only doing what they do to protect their souls.

There was a story printed once about the Craft World Eldar Sending diplomats to an imperial colony they were slain and the governor had their spirit stones worked in to his chains of office… long story short the elder wasted the colony but captured the governor alive they handed him over to the Harlequins who in turn handed him over to the Dark Eldar who on hearing what he did tortured him with their harshest devices to their disposal but the also are extending his life to torture him more.

The point is if they were truly evil they wouldn’t have given a fig over a few Craft World Eldars souls.

The only race that to today’s standards could be considered good is the Tau but I’m sure when the next codex comes out a bit more of the Grimdark side of the Tau will come out.

**Thor665**

I agree with Obsidian here.

The human race is pretty darn "evil" if you look at us from the concept of cockroaches. Heck, if I have a chance I'm stepping on any cockroach I get a chance to. So to them I'm evil and to me they're a pest who are infesting my living space.

Extrapolate for any given race and you can see how evil (and good) is extremely relative to whatever viewpoint you're choosing to look at them through. Therefore, Dark Eldar are both good and evil in various amounts, depending on your point of view.

**penut the butter**

Emperors Faithful wrote:But all they're doing is continuing what they did before the fall, just with a bit more motivation?

They get joy from others pain and suffering! How evil do you have to be?

You guys are still looking at it from a standalone angle. You must realize that the DE's concept of what we think of as evil is by thier standards not only good but holy.But if you guys are still going to swim in your ignorance then I hope you won't drown in it.

**Emperors Faithful**

I understand that DE wouldn't think of themselves as evil, but they most certainly would not think of them as good or holy.
Remember that story where Asdrubel Vect (or some such) summons a captive to his chamber, tells him the story of the Fall? Just before the prisoner is dragged away to be tortured once again, he asks "Why do you do this?" Asdrubal answers "Why? Becuase we can."

AT BEST they are acting out of fear, killing others to get save thier own skin. But (and I think some one already mentioned this) even if the motivation of pleasing Slaanesh was to suddenly dissapear, I don't think they would stop. They get a kick out of it.

@Obsidian: Harlequins are the go betweens/ambassadors atwixt the Craftworld Eldar and the DE. (They have been known to offer shows etc) Anywho, do you really think that the DE would NOT have tortured the guy? It was probably more his importance as a Planetary governer than what he did that warranted such harsh treatment.

**Thor665**

Emperors Faithful wrote:AT BEST they are acting out of fear, killing others to get save thier own skin. But (and I think some one already mentioned this) even if the motivation of pleasing Slaanesh was to suddenly dissapear, I don't think they would stop. They get a kick out of it.

On this planet we kill sentient creatures in droves and consume their flesh in stages ranging from raw all the way to practically charred over open flame.

Almost every human on the planet doesn't think of this as evil because we consider the animals to be...animals. Also, for many of us, it's a matter of survival that we consume the flesh. I submit that it is highly likely that this is how the DE view every other species in the galaxy (up to and probably including their pathetically helpless, mislead, and wrong kin). It is a matter of survival for them to do what they do, and perhaps like a finely cooked steak they can enjoy it it still fails to prove them as evil.

I would challenge you to define evil without using subjective means. From Machiavelli to Martin Luther and Plato to Aristotle the nature of the definition of evil has been bandied back and forth. You proscribe to the belief of moral absolution - however it is certainly possible to hold belief systems beyond and past that when the true definition of evil is requested.

You are allowed quite easily to say "I believe the Dark Eldar are evil" This is an unassailable position.
It is quite difficult, however, to defend the statement "The Dark Eldar are evil."

**penut the butter**

Yup.

**Emperors Faithful**

@Thor: I believe that majority of humans don't find it acceptable to torture the said animals for kicks.

Also, top even touch the subject of 'Dark Eldar = Evil' you'd firstly have to define evil.

By the majority/mainstream view on morals, they are evil. However, by their own morals...oh wait, they don't even have them.

**Obsidian**

'I am a very moral man, yet, I have no morals' -Voltaire, French philosopher

**Emperors Faithful**

Does he mean that he complies with societies morals?

'The true measure of a man is what he would do if he was to believe that he could get away with it' -I forget.

**Thor665**

Emperors Faithful wrote:By the majority/mainstream humans of the Planet Earth in our reality view on morals, they are evil. However, by their own morals...oh wait, I believe they don't even have them.

Fixed that for you.

**The Unending**

On the subject of the good and evil question are you really going to sit there and tell me that Hitler, Stalin, and Mao were nice guys who gave out candy to little kids and that all those mass graves were just their way of improving the landscape.

Good and Evil do exist but there are far more shades of grey than most people are willing to admit. The shades of grey throw off our sense of morality and cause us to question the existence of such things as good and evil; however many try to apply good and evil to entire species which is where alot of the breakdown occurs. Good and evil are judged on an individual level not a cultural level. I'm sure in dark eldar society for example there are individuals that may not necessarily agree with the mainstream dark eldar ideals and ideas and may simply do what they do because either a) they have no choice or b) the alternative is being eaten by a chaos god. In contrast there will be a sect within the dark eldar that do what they do because they enjoy it. which group do you think is good? the ones who are just trying to survive or the ones who enjoy torturing anything they can get their hands on and get off on causing others extreme pain. Good and Evil are very real.

and thus ends the philisophical part of this post.

EDIT: @Thor665: you throw around the word sentient to lightly. we are the only sentient beings on the planet so unless we're engaging in cannibalism I don't think we're roasting sentients creatures flesh on open flames.

On-Topic :

I think that the dark eldar are effectively immortal thanks to the soul eating process but i can't be sure where i heard that from.

**Obsidian**

To our moral stand point Hitler, Stalin, and Mao are unarguably evil, but i'm sure they didn't see it that way, what they did was a means to an end (blame all your problems on people from *insert race, life style or poltical group*) for them. Just look at Hitler and Starlin they were widly seen as a foce for good by the populas in the biginging.

The Unending wrote:In contrast there will be a sect within the dark eldar that do what they do because they enjoy it. which group do you think is good? the ones who are just trying to survive or the ones who enjoy torturing anything they can get their hands on and get off on causing others extreme pain

Arn't these the harmonculus or Wyches? Or am I getteng cofused with the Dark Elves?

So in summary I do agree with The Unending. Don't tar a whole race with the brush of a few people.

'I am a very moral man, yet, I have no morals' basicaly means the the fewer morals you have the less you have to break thus making you more moral. Excuse the exlanation I have difficultys doing written explainations :(

**Thor665**

The Unending wrote:Good and Evil are very real.

Good and Evil are philosophical constructs - and as far as that goes I absolutely agree that they are very real. I never said Hitler, Stalin, and Mao were nice guys...though neither did I say they were evil either. It is a subjective interpretation of whetehr or not one considers them good or evil. There is actually a very strong arguement that no one is good or evil, and that only acts can be good or evil. If you want my personal opinion on whether I felt their acts were good or evil, I would certainly say (on the whole) their actions were evil in my opinion.

EDIT: @Thor665: you throw around the word sentient to lightly. we are the only sentient beings on the planet so unless we're engaging in cannibalism I don't think we're roasting sentients creatures flesh on open flames.

That depends entirely upon your chosen definition of sentience. The current debate by scholars over the very concept of animal ethics, I feel, proves that my standpoint holds veracity for the example I used. I thus dispute your dismissal based upon my use of the word. Also, humans have, in some societies, engaged in cannibalism as a regular and non-evil perceived practice within that society.

If you choose to only define humans as sentient, that's fine. The crux of my point was that I believe Dark Eldar to consider all non-Eldar races as far beneath them in an evolutionary and ethical regard scale as you appear to perceive a cow.

**Lint**

Minaith1989 wrote:well, it wouldnt surprise me in the slightest if they were churning out babies, i mean they are addicted to never having free time or beer money!

Fixed that for you.

**Emperors Faithful**

@Thor: Got me! >_>
Anywho, I believe it says somewhere in the DE codex that thier modem is something along the lines of 'Better you than me'. Not the most noble of doctrines, eh?

Automatically Appended Next Post:
@Thor: We are not needlessly cruel to 'lower species' for fun. (at least, not mostly)

**Drk_Oblitr8r**

Dark Eldar Codex, page 2, under the heading "Introduction"

"- capture new victims to be taken back to Commorragh. What happens to them once they arrive is best not contemplated, for if anybody in the Warhammer 40000 universe could be called properly evil, it is the Dark Eldar"

**kuro_khan**

Drk_Oblitr8r wrote:Dark Eldar Codex, page 2, under the heading "Introduction"

"- capture new victims to be taken back to Commorragh. What happens to them once they arrive is best not contemplated, for if anybody in the Warhammer 40000 universe could be called properly evil, it is the Dark Eldar"

Written from the perspective of the Imperium, or humans... same thing really.

**Warboss Spleenstaba**

Thor, may I just say that you are the man and that I couldn't have put it better myself.

What it boils down to is that good and evil are RELATIVE terms, and apparently the word RELATIVE hasn't been emphasized enough.

Unending if you truly believe that he is "throwing" the term sentient around too loosely then tell me what makes humans so different from "animals," what makes humans so much better, is it that humans were made in the "image and likeness of some personal anthropomorphic god" and are therefore better (I really can't argue this perspective b/c that would be like "having an argument with a dining room table, and I have no intention of doing that" (Thank you Congressmen Barney Frank

)) , or is it that you believe humans are so much more evolved than the "lesser" apes, and therefore more "improved". In this case it is easy to see when looking at the issue from an objective viewpoint humans have not evolved from apes, therefore are apes, and intern "animals". Because when taken from a different perspective, say that of aforementioned "personal and anthropomorphic god" or the greater scape of the universe these "high and mighty" humans are no more magnificent than cockroaches swarming, consuming, defecating, mating, living and dying all the simultaneously on a pile of virulent feces in the darkest, and deepest corner of the bottom of an elevator shaft in the most insignificant building in New York City. If you feel a crushing sense of horror from this, it is only natural as it is a normal "animal" instinct.

(objective and normal are also RELATIVE terms as are many of the other word I mentioned)

All this being said I believe this is the most interesting discussion I've ever seen on Dark Eldar

, but please remember children that this is just an opinion and interesting, again, is a RELATIVE term

This has been the latest installment of 40k Sesame Street I hope all of you have enjoyed the word of the day (RELATIVE) *cut to shot of rainbow and twinkling sound* The more you learn

*roll credits to the tune of Mary had a Little Lamb as the lovable Big Bird is drained of his vital fluids, stripped of his cheery yellow plumage, relieved of his organs and non-desirable tissues, raped with all manner of unhealthy preservatives preservatives, saran-wrapped, shipped to a grocery store where a mother cockroach purchases him after refusing to buy her broodling a box of Poo-Poo puffs for the the 5th time, and returns him to her family of cockroaches to be greedily consumed, then discarded like a pile of dirty laundry to rot away. (actually here is where the metaphor fails as cockroaches are more respectable than humans in that as scavengers utilize every part of the no longer cuddly Big Bird's corpse raher than carelessly discarding so much of it as humans do)

Cheers