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Lash is very powerful. We all know you can use it to clump enemy units so that are seriously doused by the Oblits. You can also use it to pull enemy units out of cover and into assault range. Some armies have no real counters other than mech. Mech in my opinion is the best counter and you mentioned that in the original post. Lash is a psychological burden the opponent as they have to make sure they use their movement phases to counter it... It seriously affects how the opponent moves their units because sloppiness will hurt them. If the opponent has to think harder the strain can lead to mistakes. You can't simply ignore lash.

Since mission deployment requires setup along the long table edges lash can pretty much see across the table and effectively has unlimited range. That makes it even more powerful.

Some armies can easily counter it such as eldar but still you can't just simply ignore it.

G

I agree that lash is a TAD bit over rated, however I will not deny its power. Whenever I run Abaddon I ALWAYS run a Lash Sorcerer in a rhino. The ability to lash out of your rhino, moving stuff out of cover or simultaneously off points, is awesome. Plus feeding Abaddon makes him happy!

Obviously someone got a pretty good stomping from it once and is pretty sore about it

Saying Lash is bad is like asking why're boobs good. It's easily the most powerful psychic ability in the game.

Lash allows mediocre players to get results beyond their skills, and in the hands of a skilled player it's downright ridiculous.

Mosg wrote:Saying Lash is bad is like asking why're boobs good. It's easily the most powerful psychic ability in the game.

I disagree.

Mosg wrote:Lash allows mediocre players to get results beyond their skills, and in the hands of a skilled player it's downright ridiculous.

Easy to use != good.

Zid wrote:Whenever I run Abaddon I ALWAYS run a Lash Sorcerer in a rhino.

Good move. This is a much better unit than a Lash Prince, at least IMO.

Fetterkey wrote:I disagree.

You disagree that bewbs are good?

Gornall wrote:

Fetterkey wrote:I disagree.

You disagree that bewbs are good?

I disagree that Lash is easily the most powerful psychic ability in the game.

Saying Lash is overrated isn't the clearest way to quantify things. I mean, how do you think it's rated? Do you think people consider it an automatic win every time? Yes, that's overrated.

But I don't think people think that.

What I do think, is that it's one of the most powerful psychic powers in the game, probably the most powerful. I'd have to sit down and think on it to be sure, but off the top of my head, nothing comes close.

I know that a lot of people, or at the very least Mosg, agree.

The thing about Lash, is that it can really grow with the cleverness of the player. If somebody is obsessed with trying to bunch units up and pie plate them, and does that to the exclusion of anything more useful, then yeah, it's going to seem overrated.

But consider this: Every turn, we move units, we shoot with our units, we assault with our units. If we assume the average army has about 8 units, and the average game has about 6 turns, that's 144 "choices" we make per game.

Winning a game is all about making more of those 144 turn out to be "right" than the other guy.

So, what does Lash do? Let's assume a dual Lash list gets to use the power about 6 times a game. What Lash does, is effectively take away your opponent's movement, and turn it into your movement. It does that about 6 times per game. So, now you've got only 138 choices to win the game, while the Lash player has 150.

That translates into about 9% more. So, basically he's got 9% more opportunities to win the game than you do. That's not an auto-win button, but it's a pretty serious advantage.

Also, that's probably somewhat of an understatement. In a lot of situations, it's not possible to move, shoot and assault in the same turn. A lot of the time the choice is between those three options, rather than what to do with all of them.

That's all just metagame thinking, though. What it still comes down to is how good your opponent is. Just as skill is measured in how intelligently you move your own units, Lash means it can also be measured in how intelligently you move your opponents units.

What makes the Lash lists strong?

I'd answer that this way: a Lash Sorc costs 125 points. An Oblit costs 75. So, it's 3.33 Oblits for 2 Sorcs. If you could take a Lash list and replace two Lash Sorcs with the hypothetical 3.33 Oblits, would that be a stronger list?

I'd say it would absolutely not be.

Now, if you could drop a pair of Oblits and get another Lash Sorc, would that be a stronger list?

I think it would.

Fetterkey wrote:2,500 point games are abnormal. Army lists greatly differ at the 2,500 point level and armies are possible that would not be viable in lower points games. 'Ard Boyz scenarios are also abnormal, and provide significant alterations to the core gameplay. Hence, 'Ard Boyz is significantly abnormal and unrepresentative of standard play.

This is the worst debating that I have seen on here for a while. You have taken the affectation of someone who knows better but have illustrated several points of ignorance simply in the way your argument is structured:

You first argue from a competative gaming stand point, and then disallow the best example of competative play (Gloss Varnish Boyz) in this game as "support" for your argument. If anything a larger points limit only helps your argument as the limitation on Dual Lash is pretty straight forwards <<<<(2) though the points limit increasing only helps add mech and options to kill said lashers.

You also redefine your argument to state that it is overrated in "general" play and then go on to say "every player has dropped big $'s to make their army mech for 5th".

Get an undeviating argument or discussion point, or be prepared to not be taken seriously...unless this is trolling in which case: "Good fishing"

BeefyG wrote:You first argue from a competative gaming stand point, and then disallow the best example of competative play (Gloss Varnish Boyz) in this game as "support" for your argument.

As I explained, 'Ard Boyz is not actually the best example of competitive play. In fact, it has very little to do with normal competitive play.

BeefyG wrote:You also redefine your argument to state that it is overrated in "general" play

That's really my whole argument. My title is a joke.

BeefyG wrote:and then go on to say "every player has dropped big $'s to make their army mech for 5th".

When did I say that?

Phryxis wrote:What I do think, is that it's one of the most powerful psychic powers in the game, probably the most powerful. I'd have to sit down and think on it to be sure, but off the top of my head, nothing comes close.

Fortune.

Phryxis wrote:Now, if you could drop a pair of Oblits and get another Lash Sorc, would that be a stronger list?

Obviously not.

Fetterkey wrote:That's really my whole argument. My title is a joke.

No, your argument is a joke.

I think you are just trying to flame-bait and troll.

Agreed.

G

Why isn't this thread whining about Jaws of the World Wolf yet?

@ Phryxis: excellent explanation. Did you do any study in game theory or anything?

One way you can tell his point was really good? the OP didn't respond to it.

My first thought after reading the title was "This guy is high".

Phryxis has probably the best way of putting how lash is good.

I responded to the only interesting part of his post.

Incidentally, Jaws of the World Wolf isn't that good for the exact same reason Lash isn't that good-- doesn't work against vehicles.


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EzeKK wrote:My first thought after reading the title was "This guy is high".

Haha, good joke!

sourclams wrote:Why isn't this thread whining about Jaws of the World Wolf yet?

Probably because Jaws really isn't that good. The caster is slow and fragile compared to the DP, and the power can only be used for one thing, and that one thing is not terribly hard to counter at all. Lash does not fail in these ways.

Fetterkey wrote:I responded to the only interesting part of his post.

There's a joke to be made here, but I can't get the bat off my shoulder.

Fetterkey wrote:

Inigo Montoya wrote:You don't have to like it, but a well run dual lash list is hard to beat. The new incarnations using Abbey are similarly wicked. It is a potent power that can win games.

Sure, it's hard to beat-- but not thanks to the Lash!

You couldn't be more wrong. Lash takes a really good build over the top. It is the icing on the cake. The lash prince has won so many games for me that it has become expected. He is a killing machine if you venture into my backfield and he is a persistent threat in a 36" radius. 2 Princes pretty much cover the entire board.
He is very good for throwing my troops onto objectives on 5 or 6. Once the plague marines are there, the very best you can hope for is to contest.

Arguing the semantics of the build is really pointless - the synnergy of lash/plague marines/oblits is just amazing. Any one of the parts alone is solid, but together they are all much better.

The abbaddon build uses a lash prince. it is a mean build as well, and is a solid answer for many of the counters to lash while maintaing a lash in the army.

Hmm, Im not quite so sure what all the fuss is about lash. I want my opponent to use lash every single turn; well, try to use it I guess, since with Runes of Warding they fail most turns. And of course they do get their 5+ saves vs the perils of the warp that they get hit with every other time or so that they use lash. Altho they do have to reroll those successful saves....


Never ignore lash, always try to give your opponent a target so that they have to take that 3d6 psychic test! And then suffer the perils of the warp if they roll a 12+ of course.


Sliggoth

Inigo Montoya wrote:He is very good for throwing my troops onto objectives on 5 or 6. Once the plague marines are there, the very best you can hope for is to contest.

Heh. Sorry, no.

Problem is all good CSM playrs dont rely on lash, its just the icing on the cake.

That's a good mindset, GMM. Lash is an extra trick that they have on top of their standard force. It's not an army by itself, though, and you should focus on the real stuff instead of the tricks.

Fetterkey wrote:

Nope. Warp Time is much better.

I lolled hardcore!!!!!! WOW!!!!


By the way, Fortune? You think fortune is better than lash? Lash breaks a basic game mechanic - I cant move your dudes. Too bad Eldar is a crap codex now too. Slap fortune in the CSM codex and people would still take lash hand over fist.

This HAS to be a troll thread!!

PanamaG wrote:

Fetterkey wrote:

Nope. Warp Time is much better.

I lolled hardcore!!!!!! WOW!!!!


By the way, Fortune? You think fortune is better than lash? Lash breaks a basic game mechanic - I cant move your dudes. Too bad Eldar is a crap codex now too. Slap fortune in the CSM codex and people would still take lash hand over fist.

This HAS to be a troll thread!!

Fortune is far better than Lash, and Eldar is as competitive as anything. Looks like the only troll here is you.

Fetterkey wrote:

BeefyG wrote:You first argue from a competative gaming stand point, and then disallow the best example of competative play (Gloss Varnish Boyz) in this game as "support" for your argument.

As I explained, 'Ard Boyz is not actually the best example of competitive play. In fact, it has very little to do with normal competitive play.

So what substantive evidence of "normal competative play" in your little corner of the world are you referring to? What measurable quantum of "normal competative play" are you trying to refer to?

Fetterkey wrote:

BeefyG wrote:You also redefine your argument to state that it is overrated in "general" play

That's really my whole argument. My title is a joke.

I have not made myself clear enough sorry, you haven't clearly defined "general" play. I was stating that you took a side step.

Fetterkey wrote:

BeefyG wrote:and then go on to say "every player has dropped big $'s to make their army mech for 5th".

When did I say that?

Haha, this is me paraphrasing your whole section of the inherent weakness of the power being that it doesn't affect vehicles, vehicles being very strong in 5th edition and units that aren't in their transport are effectively dead.

Fetterkey wrote:

Phryxis wrote:What I do think, is that it's one of the most powerful psychic powers in the game, probably the most powerful. I'd have to sit down and think on it to be sure, but off the top of my head, nothing comes close.

Fortune.

LOL! Now this is simply outrageous. You are comparing psychic powers against each other without then applying the conditions you stated earlier? How does fortune allow you to move a scoring vehicle away from an objective , or stop a landspeeder from zooming up etc? Though your manner is stelekesque you certainly don't seem to hold a cohesive argument like he did.

Fetterkey wrote:

Phryxis wrote:Now, if you could drop a pair of Oblits and get another Lash Sorc, would that be a stronger list?

Obviously not.

Why not take all of them? Considering this is related to the point of the effectiveness of Lash? If you are playing in a microcosm that only plays small value points games to a competative level where there actually needs to be qualitative analysis between units at such a points level then I suggest that you are playing the wrong game

I'll get off my high horse now, happy fishing.

Let's just say that I'm far more afraid of a Biker Council than any Lash unit.

Yes because a biker council allows your opponent to move your guys for you.

Or maybe its because they have power weapons.

Alas Im lost.

Fortune is better than Lash? Really? Lash is as close to game-breaking as you can get in my opinion.

I'm not saying it's broken, but saying that it's trash without actually trying or apparently being able to defend your point is nothing but drivel.

Even in a mech environment, there are still guys inside those vehicles that are doing all of the contesting and most of the killing. Lash hamstrings those units in a way that is impossible for some armies to combat (Tau, Orks) and is still difficult to deal with even for the people with psychic defense.

Lash denies your opponent the ability to use the most important phase of the game -- Movement -- for whichever units you see fit. If you don't understand this then I'm not sure what can be said to help you.

In any case, since it seems that you have no problems dealing with Lash, why don't you post some of your strategies for minimizing its impact?

If you are moving your units on foot, there's your problem.

Fortune.

I'll need more convincing argument for this.

Fortune certainly is useful, but really, how great is it? It improves the odds of making armor saves without improving resistance to better AP weapons. So, for example, Dire Avengers now save at a pace right between 2+ and 3+ (which is very nice), but they still die to Heavy Bolters, Heavy Flamers, and all the other highly numerous AP4 weapons in the game, as fast as always.

Nice, but best in the game? I don't think so...

Obviously not.

Again, what's your argument?

Did you do any study in game theory or anything?

Nothing formal, but certainly interesting to our genre of nerd.

Lash takes a really good build over the top.

I think it's even more than that. It's essentially the engine of the list. Everything else is there to serve the Lashing HQs. These lists are built around two Lash totes, and then units are assembled around them to protect them, and take advantage of their strengths.

Let's just say that I'm far more afraid of a Biker Council than any Lash unit.

I'm noticing a theme here. You really love Eldar. A lot. Am I onto something?

Here's the thing... When you're THAT into one particular list, it's got a strong odor of "this is the only army I have, and the other day I played a Lash guy who wasn't very good, and I won, and I now I'm feeling angry that everyone touts a list that isn't as cool as my totally sweet Eldar. Did I mention Eldar are totally sweet?"

If you look down under these words, you'll see 12 army icons. That's because I own a total of 12 playable armies. So I don't have a "home team." I own Eldar, actually. And what's funny, is I actually DON'T own a Lash list. So you know when I say it's powerful, it's not just because I painted one, and now I'm all mad that it's not the best army ever in the history of dice.


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Let's just say that I'm far more afraid of a Biker Council than any Lash unit.

Let's just say that if you came home from a night out with the Fortune Fan Club, and you found Eldrad Ulthran in your bed wearing nothing but a soulstone, it would be THE GREATEST DAY OF YOUR LIFE.

Know what I'm sayin'? WINK WINK?