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what is the rest of your army lacking? If you want heavy anti-infantry heavy support, i'd say take 2x dakka preds(heavy bolter + autocannon) + a thunderfire.

if you want heavy anti-tank, 3x autocannon+lascannon predators are a bargain for the firepower they put out.

in either case, use the land raider as a dedicated transport to free up all your heavy slots.

Well...termies can get their own dedicated LR.
As to Hvy Support, almost all of them are shooty. And (unlike me to say this but) ALL are useful and have a place.

Dakka Preds are a great deal for points.
Devs get you many hvy weapons consolidated into one unit.
Thunderfires are a utility anti-infantry platform.
WW see some usage, best against Flak armor units behind cover or GEQ in cover.
Vindis are Vindis...
LR varients are LR varients...though I would not suggest LR's for new people unless they really like the model. They are not a no-brainer unit and need to be babied as AV14 (though max) has glaring limits.

What about this list?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q5ewxRbexaU

It has basically:

Pedro
Cassius
Assault termies
LR
20 Tacs (2x10)
2 Razorbacks
14 Sterngaurd (2x7)
2 Drop pods

1850pts

?
This is what i was thinking with regards to the drop pods.
I have not played with them.
How about running something similar, but with an ironclad instead of one Sterngaurd Squad?

Wow, I love Mahu's list...

Pretty good stuff.

I'll chime in and say that you can buy whatever you want for a tac squad heavy weapon if your plan is to "usually" combat squad. I run 2x10 tacs with razorbacks a lot. I am almost always combat squadding, so i don't hesitate to spring for a lascannon if its clear I need to punch up my anti-transport/gunship kill.

I also want to make clear that you will never out-shoot everyone, and you will never out-chop everyone, no matter how you build your list. However, in every game you play you will either out-shoot or out-chop your opponent.

In basic terms. Take a good spread of these things...

long range anti-light armor (lascannons, missile launchers of all types, autocannons, conversion beamer) This is vital equipment. Transports, especially fast moving ones, need to be taken down in the early game. The more maneuvering your opponent can do while transported, the better his chances of a win are. Also, there is a short but dangerous list of lightly armored vehicles that carry a substantial amount of firepower. Things like land speeder typhoons, vendetta gunships, ravagers, fire prisms. they don't have to stop to shoot, they won't let you get close to them to kill them, and they tend to hunt your mobility and tank kill first. They are high priority targets.

short range anti-heavy tank (meltaguns, multi-meltas, demolisher cannons) You need some of this, but the danger is to fall into the trap of taking too much of this. This is really for land raiders, ironclads and soul grinders.

short range anti-heavy infantry (plasma guns, plasma cannons, demolisher cannons) My imperial guard army needs a lot more of this than space marines do, primarily because you have assault terminator counter-charge option. This is there to help you beat back bloodcrushers, nob bikers, thunderwolf cavalry, demon princes, and terminators.

mid-range anti-light infantry (heavy bolters, bolters, assault cannons, missile launchers of all types, whirlwind missile launchers) Space marines get a lot of this for free with their BS4 bolters, so it isn't too much of a concern. If hordes of gaunts, orks or guardsmen are giving you fits, you may want to increase your output here.

counter-assault (assault terminators) Remember when everyone said you can't really make a completely shooty army. Its just not a capability the codex has. You are given a choice between many different 'toolbox' units, none of which can just line up and slug it out with dedicated shooters. This means that you don't have the volume of fire necessary to bring down the tough aggressive infantry units and monstrous creatures that will be attacking you. Nothing fixes this problem better than a unit of assault terminators with thunder hammers and storm shields. They are purpose built to tackle hard hitting, armor ignoring monstrous creatures/infantry units. A perfect stop-gap for the vulnerabilities of space marines. A land raider of any variety housing this unit is a great starting point for any first time marine player. You can use the land raider to protect your terminators from any support fire while also using it as a main battle tank when facing armies that will be the aggressor to you, and you can use the land raider as the spear tip of your assault when facing armies that choose to react to you.

Hope that was a good primer of where to start. The ultimate list you construct can be many and various, as long as you've covered the bases you need to cover. It'll be a cocktail of your own design, and constantly adjusted as you get more and more games under your belt.

Shep and Mahu sum it up pretty well

I agree especially with Shep about the Land Raider Termie soncept.

Seriously consider picking up a Bike "commander" to be able to take bikes as troops.


It reduces your numbers but overall they are fantastic units.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Vanguard:

Make a really great countercharge unit when you use them in conjunction with a Drop List add in pedro and you have something like 8 powerfists coming from a 210 point 5 man squad w/ 2 powerfists.

They are just so fragile tho :( and difficult to use.

Hollismason wrote:Seriously consider picking up a Bike "commander" to be able to take bikes as troops.


It reduces your numbers but overall they are fantastic units.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Vanguard:

Make a really great countercharge unit when you use them in conjunction with a Drop List add in pedro and you have something like 8 powerfists coming from a 210 point 5 man squad w/ 2 powerfists.

They are just so fragile tho :( and difficult to use.

Disagree here. The Bike Captain is mandatory if you want to build a bike heavy list, but is normally a waste of points in a shooting focused army. Unless you are trying to take extra FA units, you are better off keeping the HQs as cheap as possible. Either a Chaplain or Libby will work fine to support a counter assault unit like Terminators.

As for heavy support, in a shooting heavy SM force I strongly suggest always taking a WW or a Thunderfire. The ability to drop ranged templates that ignore cover saves is huge. My current favorite is the Thunderfire because of its longer range and the Techmarine's ancilliary abilities (i.e. bolster ruins) that can be used to benefit other parts of your army.

Well...bikers are a shooty focused unit.
Not all shooty lists have to be static.

Biker troops are a flexible option for a shooty army...mobile squads with triple melta action is very nice...backed up by respectable TL bolters.

Sanctjud wrote:Well...bikers are a shooty focused unit.
Not all shooty lists have to be static.

Biker troops are a flexible option for a shooty army...mobile squads with triple melta action is very nice...backed up by respectable TL bolters.

I agree that bikers are a good shooting unit. But the Captain with Bike is not a good buy if you plan on only using one squad and do not plan on maxing out fast attack. Otherwise, a bike squadron plus a landspeeder squadron and an attack bike squadron are good FA choices to round out the list and you can buy a cheaper HQ to support any of those.

A biker captain hovers around 165 to 180.
It's a fairly balanced price for something that's a Daemon Prince that is faster and retains the IC status, coupled with a better INV save.

One pays more to get more. If you can function without the scoring bikes, then by all means don't get him, but I would highly suggest getting a bike captain, I feel everyone should experience the wonderful feeling of going THAT fast...and still be playing a 'real' MEQ army.

/shrug.

Scoring bikers, even with one squad, are pretty clutch unit in objective games when supported well.
A list doesn't have to be all bikers to make the most of having a captain on a bike.

It's the same thing as say a Kantor list, not every Elites choice finds itself to be Sternguard.

Sanctjud wrote:

A list doesn't have to be all bikers to make the most of having a captain on a bike.

It's the same thing as say a Kantor list, not every Elites choice finds itself to be Sternguard.

QFT.
Also considering Kantor gives +1 attack to all friendly within 12"
(which in itself is enough reason to take him, especially in large and/or doubles games)
A bike HQ is just a good unit. period

Sanctjud wrote:A biker captain hovers around 165 to 180.
It's a fairly balanced price for something that's a Daemon Prince that is faster and retains the IC status, coupled with a better INV save.

One pays more to get more. If you can function without the scoring bikes, then by all means don't get him, but I would highly suggest getting a bike captain, I feel everyone should experience the wonderful feeling of going THAT fast...and still be playing a 'real' MEQ army.

/shrug.

Scoring bikers, even with one squad, are pretty clutch unit in objective games when supported well.
A list doesn't have to be all bikers to make the most of having a captain on a bike.

It's the same thing as say a Kantor list, not every Elites choice finds itself to be Sternguard.

We'll just have to agree to disagree. I usually invest the 65 to 80 points I save on a HQ choice back into another unit. You're only 5 points away from a Dakka Pred or a WW after all. A bike captain with a good size bike unit (even just one) is a fairly considerable investment in points. Maybe I'm just a MSU hold over guy from previous editions. I do like the pros, but usually fill similiar roles with a fourth tactical squad.

True. Different things float our boats.
I can see the appeal of the dakka preds, but I just don't like preds in general, for non-game reasons...including the WW, actually all the hvy support are not that interesting to me...though I use some of it.

As for the biker captain... I run an all biker list, so I actually don't have a choice in the matter, so that definetly skews my point of view on the Captain.

I for one do not like MSU, in any additions, but that's mainly due to asthetics and my liking larger beefy squads as I generally prefer bodies over special weapons in an insane world of mass special weapons, for better or for worse.

I generally don't know what to do if I had 65-80 points remaining... nothing I'd want to take fits that point range...throwing a Dakka Pred in IMO doesn't immediately help the list...as it would be the only armored target in my list........ nor would it 'fit'... esp. with soft scores and army comp (if people still use those)...

if you run full size biker squads, you have the option for going MSU with combat squads. its allllll good!!!

What wepeons should I equip my tactical squads with. I need anti tank, so thinking Meltas, Lascannons etc...

jimbob2002 wrote:What wepeons should I equip my tactical squads with. I need anti tank, so thinking Meltas, Lascannons etc...

Depends on what you want them to do. Common builds are:

Meltagun/Multi-Melta for close range fire fights

Plasmagun/Plasma Cannon for holding objectives and anti-TEQ

Missile Launcher/Flamer to keep them cheap and versatile

I often combat squad and use a lascannon and either a meltagun or plasma rifle. The lascannon + 4 bolters sits back and shoots while the Sergeant, Meltagun and 3 bolters move up to engage/take objectives. Sarge usually gets a powerfist or powerweapon + melta bombs.

I agree with all of Shep's analysis, except have one thing to add. Assault terminators aren't the only viable countercharge unit for an otherwise-shooty army. I'm getting good results with dreadnoughts in that role.

As long as they have dccws, dreads can bog and grind away nearly anything in close combat. A lot of things can't even hurt them. Plus, unlike assault termies, dreads can shoot while they're standing around waiting to countercharge. You can get two MM/DCCW dreads for about the same cost as a unit of assault termies, and they don't need transport.

The one thing they're vulnerable to in assault is monstrous creatures. But if you have a shooty army otherwise, monstrous creatures don't make it into your lines that often.

Two minimum in an army, three is better.

Hmm, funny, I don't think I've ever used a Tactical squad...Bikers FTW IMO.

But I've seen the plasma squad used alot...quite decent for points.

Just finished a game (I won!!! ) and used 2 scoring units of bikers, and a tactical squad. The bikes were really good at holding objectives, and the tactical squad suprisingly held their own (I thought they crumple instantly).

I also had a full unit of MM attack bikes, which took down 2 wave serpents, and and a fire prism.

Thank you for the compliment Shep. I agree mostly with your post, but my disagreements are mostly minor, and it could be the result of my local meta.

I will explain my ten commandments fully:

1. Always take a Librarian with Null Zone.

The Librarian is the most cost effective HQ in the codex, hands down, and goes with almost any list. Null Zone is key because it gives us an answer to Deamon armies and other armies bigger assault units. 9 times out of 10 competitive armies you will face, you will need to Hood something (PBS, Lash< JoWW) or Null Zone something (Ork Nobs, Lone Wolves, Deamons). That is why it is an essential choice for a competitive SM list.

2. Remember you are a shooty army first and an assault army second.

Most of our units are better shooters then assaulters. We have only a few units that are pure assault (Assault Terminators, Vanguard), that's why when building lists, we have to answer what we are going to do in the shooting phase. My Vulkan lists are trending more towards maximizing the amount of MM I have in the list (my last 2000 point army list had 9). Our assault elements are supposed to be targeting units of opportunity and striking with the right timing, we don't have the assault capability to do a hammer army so why bother. The fact that other armies can be a hammer better then ours should prove this point to you.

3. Avoid Pure Drop Pod Armies.

This is an old 4th edition playstyle that has lost alot of it's effectiveness due to the Drop Pod Assault rules and the simple fact that you opponent can hold their whole army in reserve and just react to you with impunity. I also advise against anything in Power Armor in a Drop Pod. The first time you face against the template spam of IG, you will know why.

4. When taking drop pods, always take into consideration drop pod assault.

This should be a no brainer, but always take into consideration what you want to land on the first turn. The general rule of thumb it that Dreadnoughts are the best candidates to land on the first turn, with your other units showing up later.

5. You can't go wrong with a Land Raider.

Land Raiders are the best they have ever been and are never a bad investment. There is also no army build that can't use one. All variants are equally effective just are better at different things.

Standard Raider is a good support unit to other shooting in your army and is best when holding a scoring unit near a back field objective. The range it provides can really be helpful against certain armies.

The Crusader it the best assault variant, namely because it's one of the few tanks in the game that can move and fire all it's weapons.

The Redeemer it the best Mid-field variant. Because it is most effective if not moving, but requires things to get close to it.

Always consider the Land Raider Variant's shooting when you are trying to determine it's role in your list. A Land Raider that spend every turn firing, is a Land Raider being used effectively. They can be played aggressively, but tend to fall to the amount of units that can fry it up close. It's better to be cautios and have the opponent come to you.

6. Tactical Flexibility over pure assault or pure shooty.

To me, this is the biggest thing about the Marines.

The Marines to me are a "reactionary" army, I.E. you look at what your opponent is doing and react to that. We have the flexibility in our units and lists to adapt to changing conditions.

That's why I am not a fan of "you know ahead of time when you are combat squading", I.E. a ten man Tactical Squad with a Razorback, etc. I always go with either ten in a Rhino, or 5-6 in a Razorback.

The reason why is that with changing conditions and the amount of different types forces you will face, may give your opponents a few extra kill points for easy to target combat squads. My rule of thumb, and this is just me, is that I build my list so that if I have to be fully within tanks because of the shooty my opponent has, then I have that option. If KP is not an issue and I can combat squad considering my opponent I will, but having the flexibility to adapt to your opponent and the mission you are playing is our primary advantage in game, and an advantage I try to maximize when I build my lists.

7. Never pay for a heavy weapon in a Tactical Squad.

From what I have found, is that all the heavy weapon choices are about equal. Plasma Cannons are good but wasted on heavy mech armies, and Lascannons don't have the stopping power on high armored targets like they used to, but are still good at light transport killing. So why should I have to pay extra for them, if I get the same type of investment from a ML or MM.

Don't get me wrong, I still field lascannons in my Tactical Squads when I play more shooty lists, but on the competitive level, there really is no reason to invest in them.

8. Choose your HQs first and the rest of your army second.

Since a lot of our special characters fundamentally change how most of our units opporate, knowing which one you are going to use is key to building the rest of your army. We are fortunate to have very few "bad" character choices.

You also don't need a special character in a list as well, but that still dictates what you are going to support them with.

9. Combat Tactics are good, but don't rely on it.

I have found Combat Tactics to be lackluster, because you are still required to loose the combat. In an elite army like ours we can't suffer casulties well. So just be very careful when you choose (and you should be the one to choose) which of your units are going to be charged or will charge what. Another downside to Combat Tactics is that you can still fall off the board if you are escorted, and loosing critical turns to move towards objectives is a bad thing.

10. Don't be agressive with your tactical marines.

This is a key strategy. They are not particularly good at something like other armies troops squads. They rely on surgical strikes and landing on objectives at the right time. Heavy Weapons in an Access point vehicle is your friend.



I hope that explains my reasoning a little more, and there are more "commandants" that can be generated, but these are probably the more important things I have picked up in playtesting the codex for the past 6 months.

I forget who is the big proponent of long range antitank ; but he is right its someone on here.


People will go on and on and on about Multimeltas and they are excelent but seriously consider a 10 man unit in a rhino w/ a lascannon.


edit:

A 5 Man Bike squad w/ 2 special weapons and powerfist is a excellet retinue for a Captain on a Bike.

Captain on bike w/ Relic blade 165
5 Man w/ 2 Plasmas or meltas whatever floats your boat
Powerfist

Add in a Librarian w/ Nullzone and Vortex

You now have a fantastic unit that scores ; it doesnt get feel no pain but whateva

Hollismason wrote:I forget who is the big proponent of long range antitank ; but he is right its someone on here.


People will go on and on and on about Multimeltas and they are excelent but seriously consider a 10 man unit in a rhino w/ a lascannon.


edit:

A 5 Man Bike squad w/ 2 special weapons and powerfist is a excellet retinue for a Captain on a Bike.

Captain on bike w/ Relic blade 165
5 Man w/ 2 Plasmas or meltas whatever floats your boat
Powerfist

Add in a Librarian w/ Nullzone and Vortex

You now have a fantastic unit that scores ; it doesnt get feel no pain but whateva

I'm one of the biggest proponents of long range firepower. I think that Marines can really shape the fight by using the 25" to 48" range fight to take out or cripple key pieces in the opponents army and then close to inside 24" to finish the fight with bolters and rapid fire weapons. I don't like having the bulk of my firepower effective only inside 24" as I think it plays into the strength of assault armies too much.

well if you mount them on bikes your normally OK. not much has a 24" charge range, and with a 12" move, you can normally kite them. I'd rather fire a multimelta than a lascannon, even at ranges of over 12". the 1 less STR is compensated by the +1 damage from AP1.

Horst wrote:well if you mount them on bikes your normally OK. not much has a 24" charge range, and with a 12" move, you can normally kite them. I'd rather fire a multimelta than a lascannon, even at ranges of over 12". the 1 less STR is compensated by the +1 damage from AP1.

Yes, but a lascannon also has double the range. There are alot of games where the extra range has been able to translate into an extra turn of shooting for me because I can deploy with additional depth.

meh, a multimelta on a bike is only 12" shorter ranged than a lascannon effectively, because you can move 12" and fire.

Yes, but you don't benefit from the additional range if you are trying to trade space for time and gain additional turns of shooting since you are backing up from the enemy.

Well yeah, but aren't you moving 12" closer to your enemy and kind of missing the point of out ranging him?

My current 2k team (That so far suprisingly hasn't failed)

HQ
TDA libby with storm shield
Captain on bike with relic blade

Elites
5 TH/SS termies with LR
6 Sternguard w/x2 HF 'n Rhino

Troops
10 man Tactical, PF, MM, meltagun, Rhino
10 man tactical, MM, meltagun, Rhino
5 man scouts, snipers 'n camo cloaks
5 bikers, x2 meltaguns

FA
3 attack bikes, 3 MM
2 landspeeders, 1 typhoon, 1 tornado w/a HF, MM

Can anyone advise me on any changes/ tactics I could use.

jimbob2002 wrote:My current 2k team (That so far suprisingly hasn't failed)

HQ
TDA libby with storm shield
Captain on bike with relic blade

Elites
5 TH/SS termies with LR
6 Sternguard w/x2 HF 'n Rhino

Troops
10 man Tactical, PF, MM, meltagun, Rhino
10 man tactical, MM, meltagun, Rhino
5 man scouts, snipers 'n camo cloaks
5 bikers, x2 meltaguns

FA
3 attack bikes, 3 MM
2 landspeeders, 1 typhoon, 1 tornado w/a HF, MM

Can anyone advise me on any changes/ tactics I could use.

Pretty solid list. The Terminators provide good counter charge. The Sternguard are a nice counter-punch piece (counter attack by fire if you want to be doctrinally correct ) The tactical squads and bikes are solid units and the scouts are a cheap and surprisingly durable scoring unit when in cover. The LR itself provides a modicum of ranged firepower. I would probably make the second land speeder a typhoon just to get a third platform with range 24"+ since you have enough melta and flame templates elsewhere in the list.

Cheers Panzer, will try that out. Does anyone reckon I need more Mech/Devastators (An oppenent said I did, he held me to a draw.)