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As someone who has played him on more than one occasion I'd say give him a one month pass on the events. If he continues to pull crap after a month ban then just keep upping the length.

Somethings from the multiple games I've had is he regularly asked every rule he doesn't understand and citation from the rulebook/codex. Takes forever in his movement/shooting/assault phases and takes forever to take saves. The only saving grace of being matched up with him twice is he's easy points since his tactical prowess is lackluster at best.

You can not ban a person from the Chicago Battle Bunker for something they might do. It is a private club's tournament, but it's the bunker.

If the tourney judges make a ruling, you have to live with it. It is not the Eldar players fault the judges made the ruling they did. Don't blame him, blame the judges. Don't make the excuse that the judges don't know the rules. They run the event. That being said, mistakes are made and we all have to play the game based off of what the judges rule. Explain it to them afterwards, convince them they were wrong and they will make the right call the next month. That's all you can do. I have been to plenty of tournaments where one person got a ruling beforehand that was wrong from the judges, but we had to play with it. Just look at the Fantasy Ard Boyz finals to see an example of that.

If he's moving things around in assault, call him on it. If he insists the distances were long, insist they weren't. Don't let the game go on. Don't give in. He derives his power over you and the game with your acquiessence. If you don't want the fight with him then, don't bring it up weeks later. I have played him and half the time he just doesn't know the rules. You could pull some amazing stuff off of him.

I remember he insisted wraithlords got a cover save from Dire Avengers standing in front. I read the rulebook rules on MC cover saves 4-5 times to him and he still claimed a cover save. Eventually I rolled to wound and told him to remove the wraithlord because I wasn't going to acknowledge it on the table anymore. The look on his face was he honestly beleived the WL still got the cover, but he took it off the table.

The guy has painted his army. The guy obviously loves the game and wants to play. He has never gotten close to winning much of anything, but religiously comes to the tournament and tries to improve his hobby skills in 40k each month. So there is something wrong during the game. Deal with it.

Judging is not easy, but the judges have the tool to deal with it and it does not involve banning somebody.

Wow, Darth, sounds like you just volunteered to babysit the TFG!

Bravo!

While I realise that nobody has yet been named, I think we're starting to tread a little too closely to having a go at someone who isn't here to defend themselves.

If you personally have a problem with a local player, take it up with them rather than sharing it with the world behind their back.

Please, lets lay off the discussion of a particular player here, and get back to the actual topic.

DarthDiggler wrote:You can not ban a person from the Chicago Battle Bunker for something they might do. It is a private club's tournament, but it's the bunker.

No one is talking about banning someone from the Bunker, they're talking about banning him from a private club's event that happens to be held there. And it's not about something someone might do, it's about something someone has done, repeatedly.

If the tourney judges make a ruling, you have to live with it.

Agreed. Which is why I didn't pursue it further at the time.

Judging is not easy, but the judges have the tool to deal with it and it does not involve banning somebody.

One of the tools that the judges do have at their disposal is banning someone who has been a repeat problem, month after month. If a particular player demands more of the judges attention than all the other players at the event, combined, why are they under any compulsion to continue to let that player participate in their event?

The guy has painted his army. The guy obviously loves the game and wants to play. He has never gotten close to winning much of anything, but religiously comes to the tournament and tries to improve his hobby skills in 40k each month. So there is something wrong during the game. Deal with it.


Ok, this is a whole different story now. If he doesn't know the rules, and isn't the sharpest spoon in the drawer, that's a lot different from TFG. It's difficult to work with guys like this, but that's what it's going to take. If he's starting out with his own army, it's painted (to whatever standard), and comes to play a lot, you've got the hard part done.

Someone, or some club, needs to make him their project. Get him into the bunker for more casual play. Explain to him right from the start that you're going to work with him some, to make him a better player. (Better with the rules, better with game play, more enjoyable to play.) Go over rules he has wrong. Show him some tactics. Explain why slow play is bad, and he can avoid some of it by knowing the game better.

Clubs aren't just about who has the best players and painters. Sometimes it means taking on charity cases. Lord knows I've done enough of those over the years. Some have turned into surprisingly good players/people.

mikhaila wrote:The guy has painted his army. The guy obviously loves the game and wants to play. He has never gotten close to winning much of anything, but religiously comes to the tournament and tries to improve his hobby skills in 40k each month. So there is something wrong during the game. Deal with it.


Ok, this is a whole different story now. If he doesn't know the rules, and isn't the sharpest spoon in the drawer, that's a lot different from TFG. It's difficult to work with guys like this, but that's what it's going to take. If he's starting out with his own army, it's painted (to whatever standard), and comes to play a lot, you've got the hard part done.

Someone, or some club, needs to make him their project. Get him into the bunker for more casual play. Explain to him right from the start that you're going to work with him some, to make him a better player. (Better with the rules, better with game play, more enjoyable to play.) Go over rules he has wrong. Show him some tactics. Explain why slow play is bad, and he can avoid some of it by knowing the game better.

Clubs aren't just about who has the best players and painters. Sometimes it means taking on charity cases. Lord knows I've done enough of those over the years. Some have turned into surprisingly good players/people.

I agree with this. I know the shananigans that goes on in games with him, but I don't detect an evil intent. I played him and he had all these dice set up in cups. He said he had been told he played slow and was using the cup to speed up his play. He's trying. I also think he's been taken advantage of during games because of his uncertainty with the rules. It hasn't happened at the club tournament, but at his local store. This is the feeling that I get and that is why he asks for corrections and clarrifications alot. He needs to become more comfortable with the rules and the players to trust them with their rules.

No one who is as overt as this guy can have a sinister motivation during the game. Yes he wants to win, but he wants to play first and foremost. He can always go play kids in the main room if he just wanted to win. I've got a basketball game for the next tournament, but that game isn't until 4pm. I'll talk to Zero_Cool and see if I can't be paired up with him round 1. I'll babysit him for one game and see what happens. It's a win-win scenario for you guys. You don't have to play him and you won't get tabled by me either.

mikhaila wrote:The guy has painted his army. The guy obviously loves the game and wants to play. He has never gotten close to winning much of anything, but religiously comes to the tournament and tries to improve his hobby skills in 40k each month. So there is something wrong during the game. Deal with it.


Ok, this is a whole different story now. If he doesn't know the rules, and isn't the sharpest spoon in the drawer, that's a lot different from TFG. It's difficult to work with guys like this, but that's what it's going to take. If he's starting out with his own army, it's painted (to whatever standard), and comes to play a lot, you've got the hard part done.

Someone, or some club, needs to make him their project. Get him into the bunker for more casual play. Explain to him right from the start that you're going to work with him some, to make him a better player. (Better with the rules, better with game play, more enjoyable to play.) Go over rules he has wrong. Show him some tactics. Explain why slow play is bad, and he can avoid some of it by knowing the game better.

Clubs aren't just about who has the best players and painters. Sometimes it means taking on charity cases. Lord knows I've done enough of those over the years. Some have turned into surprisingly good players/people.

Yea whats the deal? He sounds like me. Its not me is it?

You know I can understand a lot of what you fellas are saying, and I know you pay to play in a tourney so you should get the most out of it. Talk to this guy by the sounds of it,and explain that he needs to maybe play some more games with your normal members outside the tourney first. Then once he has gotten a certain understanding of it down then maybe he can start doing the tournies.

One thing I have learned having to move alot because of the military is that gamers are incredably cliqish and it can be extremely hard to fit in with them. I remember in Oregon were people made up lies saying I talked smack when I had nevetr talked to them before, all in hopes of the owners kicking me out of th estore(I fixed that problem by buying the store ). Fitting into clubs is hard hell the one I am in we don't pick a person by their gaming level we pick by how well they fit into our family as well thats what we are a family of tight nit friends who like to game.

Over all I am trying to say take some time to work with him outside of the tournies, because we all at one point were TFG whether we admit it or not.. and frazzled yes... it is you_

Assertive be it. Or channel Darth diggler?

Id quite enjoy the nerd rage that booting someone would cause.

I mean I have 900 posts at dakka I must enjoy nerd rage.

Warlord Imp wrote:EDIT: About the unpainted figures and not being able to identify them, the players that made these mitakes should have confirmed them with said TFG. If they mistake the identity of the figure, it is their own fault for not taking a good look at the figure before they make their moves. Of course it is easier to identify the figures if they were painted but they are not. They should go the extra mile and take a closer look at the figures before assuming that they are something else. They need to adjust rather than demand a painted army to play against.

Ahh... a good part of the reason for painting is for ease of identification. It's not just about 'looking cewl!'

Frankly, if I were to field an unpainted force, I'd include a small placard that identifies what the unit is. That's just common courtesy.

SPARKEYG wrote:So, you start running a series of tourneys at the LFGS, when in the first one you realize that TFG has signed on. What do you do? TFG has showed up to every tourney in the past four months. People have complained about his unpainted army, his breaking of the rules, and his general attitude. The guy who is running the tourneys w/ you wants to boot the guy out on his ass.

What do you do?

Simple: If he is breaking rules/cheating then that is all you need to ask him to leave...

IF your tourney rules state clearly that painted armies are required then again you have legitimate ground to boot him.

If your being soft and not taking charge then YOU are at fault for allowing him to be TG...

Exactly. Holding hands and singing KooBahYa is fine and dandy but it won't help anyone at the end of the day.

G

I see this being up to the Judges/Tournament Organizer. The point of gaming is to have fun following a set of rules. When the rules aren't followed, it ceases to be fun and who wants to play a game that turns out to be work?

For example:
If someone is driving 20mph on a freeway where the speed limit is 75, causing everyone else to back up, swerve, etc., it's not up to the other drivers to show the slower driver how to drive. That's the Highway patrolman's job to keep drivers safe and traffic moving. If they can't drive, they're removed from oncoming traffic.

If TFG is malicious or just a noob (as we all were at one time, right?) the judge gets to make the call to help the people in the tournament have fun. If someone is taking away from the fun, pull them aside and coach them, or pull them aside and get them out of the way of the other players.

I personally agree with JHwangs approach. The first tourney I ran I let a TFG in, and fully regretted it due to finding out the guy list cheated in 2 of his games. I found out during the tourney and forfeited his games. Then after the tourney was accused of "singling him out".

Anyway it's best to just nip it in the bud. Nip it I tell ya, just NIP IT.

GG

That is the best approach for sure.

G

I think you guys are missing one of the easiest solutions to this problem. If this a 'club tourney', then why not make it an INVITATIONAL tourney also. Forget to 'invite' TFG, no one can say a thing, since it is invite only, AND TFG doesn't get to cause any problems (intentionally or through his own ineptitude). If the guy is a noob, someone should really take him on regularly if possible, and get him familiarised with the rules, etc.

If he isn't breaking any rules then you can't really exclude him or you may end up getting accused of discrimination etc.

My advice is too pull him aside and poiltely tell him that people have taken issue with his conduct so he needs to take care when participating or risk being removed from it.

If he complains then simply hold up your hands and say thats the way it is and your not going to make an issue of it if he doesn't.

Gamer's tend not to be the most socially aware, and between cliques and simple paranoia pretty much any attempt to ban somebody is going to be viewed by at least some people as a completely unprovoked vendetta.

Go with your gut. If you think the tournament would run smoother without him, tell him that there have been some complaints, and that he's not welcome this cycle, but if he wants to change a few things he's welcome next time.

OTOH, if the drama from booting him is too great, simply make repeated announcments about following rules, cheating, stalling, abusive play, etc. If he gets out of hand, kick him out then, in public, where everybody knows what happened.

The crops need sacrifice.

I would pull him aside and talk to him. We have one of these guys at our LGS, always always always has at least 4 or 5 rules issues per game. And stupid stuff too, ap3 ignores feel no pain and what not. Moves models an extra inch, stuff like that. But I dont think he actively cheats, I just think hes socially ackward.

And there are people like that, those who cheat because they want to win and arent aware they are cheating, and those who cheat because they need to win.

Just pull him aside, let him know that you have had complaints about him, and he might straighten up, who knows maybe he could be a pretty cool guy.

The classic TFG I know of is someone that got perma banned from Dakka a while ago.
In the tournaments I've seen him in, he'd get huffy and stomp around crying "cheater" as someone was handing him his butt on a platter.
Happily his opponents had more class than he did and would calmly call the ref over to handle the dispute.
The ref would look the situation over and explain why this guy's opponent was in the right then watch a bit of the game seeing how this guy handled himself.

Redbeard wrote:I like to think that people can be redeemed, but enough is enough. You need to either have a judge who knows the rules hover at the table, and make sure he's not cheating, or boot hi.

That's your first mistake right there.

As a tournament organizer myself I work on the

First time caught cheating by a judge = stiff warning

Second time caught cheating by a judge = 2 tournament Ban

Notice I said caught by a judge, I'd be afraid of a click of guys ganging up on someone they had a personal problem with.

Just talk to the guy and tell him he needs to take a breather not a " permanent ban" just ask him to not show up for one of the tournaments and it is because of his behavior at the tournament.

Usually what I see is these people straighten up because they enjoy tourneys and will improve their behavior.

There is a middle ground make it clear he will not be allowed in the next tournament and in the next one he has to improve not onl his generaly sportsmanship but attitude when playing the game.


If not he is not allowed in the tourney.


Most people will improve their behavior if he does not do not allow him into the tourney again.

It seem to me that unless this person has multiple personalities these are two seperate people.

If he really is TFG than there have been more than enough nerd-rageous suggestions already

If he is the ignorant n00b group punching bag that others have mentioned perhaps this my be a decent solution.
Allow him to the next tourney but bring along a few video cameras set up on specific tables (suggest a club promotional video). Ensure table assignments to make sure that at least two of his games are recorded(get audio too) It would be even better if he was asked to narrate one of his taped games.

Review the tapes for rules mistakes and tactical errors or post as a video bat rep and get review here.

Next tourney discreetly hand him your cheat sheet regarding his rule mistakes with citations and some suggested tactics. ( this will put him on notice without the fuss) make sure the judges have a copy of this list to use as crib notes for this player.

If it yields results continue stroking this player, he just needed some love. If not boot him for disrupting others

Razor

Put me in the camp of "talk to him first". Very few people actually want to be douchebags and even fewer realize that they are.

Tourneys are not really the place to be learning the game. Remember, a game is a social contract. By playing in a tourney I am agreeing to the terms of the contract that the person I am playing knows the rules. If they don't and I crush them, I feel like a jerk. Or I call them on their misinterpretations and I feel like a jerk.

If he is painting and making the effort in the other aspects of the hobby, he shares our sickness and we should bring him in and nurture it, but we shouldn't have to have a sucky tourney experience because of it.

That being said, if you have an extra judge have them hover around that table. If not, have the primary judge hover - most people don't have problems during the games.

I don't know about the OP, but usually a guy gets a pass once or twice, if they are improving. We are talking about tourny play, where one is supposed to know the score and act accordingly.

The cheating would be a dead giveaway that the guy is not tourny material. Cheating, seriously. We are talking about a game. we have rules, you know them to play, or you learn them and come back when your ready.

To help YOU, your TFG needs someone to talk to him about the douchbaggery. Seriously, YOU can do it if you want to, but not at the tourny. The tournament is the last place that young grasshopper needs to be playing if they are just showing up with thier army and a bad time to be had by all.

Maybe someone in your club could teach the guy to play first, then play a couple of games to get him on his feet and then take him as a observer to a couple of other games and explain the score of playing for keeps when prizes are on the line.
We ususally give this guy a series of teaching starting with the basics and going all the way up to playing full games. Tournies are few and far between, but it really just sounds to me like you have your basic guy who needs some extra attention to get him on his feet. I don't mean to hold his hand the whole way, but at least until he earns his stripes to become a member of your local area players.

Players in everyones area have thier crowds to play with, either you get in where you fit in, or you pack your stuff and go home. Don't you all have your fair share of douchbaggery that you deal with, they get stung, learn thier lession, and soon you get back to playing? If the guy has to play with a codex in one hand, and a rulebook in the other, so be it. it doesn't do a bit of good to let the guy axe himself by being stupid if he is salvageable.

You got someone he can learn from, you pair the guy up with someone and let them play doubles, until he earns his place at the table. If he learns his lession, tell him to get on the table, play a few more games, then come to the next one.( obviously you don't do this during a tourney, you do it on his own time, where other won't get stung by him or his jacking around.)

As was alluded to earlier, the guy probibly really wants to play, but really doesn't KNOW how. He sees a tourny, and wets himself when the local heros all show up, and wants in. He just needs some help getting his head out and getting his game on.

If not, and hes a cheat, doesn't want to learn, and just wants to be a nusance, then someone needs to take the guy out of the game, sit him down and get his head out of his fourth point. He's either a player of not.

Of course, you could always do something like make a scene, but why bother. A tourney is a PITA to begin with, why give yourself more grief, when the cat actually can be of service, if not for entertainment value when everyone scornes him after trying to help him?

Talk to him first, if he doesn't want to play, tell him to take his stuff and blow, Especially even after you tried to help him.

A PITA or a newb, either way he has models, so that has to count for something. Could be worse, he could be TFG that is jacking peoples models.

SPARKEYG wrote:So, you start running a series of tourneys at the LFGS, when in the first one you realize that TFG has signed on. What do you do?

Get him over by the front door, stomp on his foot REALLY hard. When he bends over in pain, pull his shirt/coat/hoodie over his head, spin him around and kick him in his ass right out the door.

Classic 3 Stooges.



Ghidorah