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I thought of a razorback spam list a couple months ago similar to the link and the OP, but decided the KP you gave up were too costly. Don't get me wrong, this list will crush a lot. Maybe even a good massacre-scoring style tournament list.

I think many lists will be able to take advantage of your high KP and low AV. I do think this list has potential though.

I think that mechguard could give it a very good shot if they went first. Unfortunately a lot of the lists that would do well against this comes down to them getting first roll.

Various Guard and shooty SM lists I've seen here would likely win with first turn, as would some Tau lists, and I'm moderately confident that good Dark Eldar armies would win in general. In a straight shoot-out with another sufficiently shooty list, this army would also be in trouble because of its ridiculous KP count. Strangely, the rather silly pure foot Mordian army a guy I know runs, despite being less than optimized otherwise, would also probably crush the "Overdrive" army, though the "Overdrive" force might have a chance if they went first, abandoned shooting entirely, and just tried to Rhino rush into assault.

If you can't beat them, join them!

HQ
Big Mek, KFF
Big Mek, KFF

TROOPS
11 boyz + nob w/PK in Trukk w/ram and boarding plank
11 boyz + nob w/PK in Trukk w/ram and boarding plank
11 boyz + nob w/PK in Trukk w/ram and boarding plank
11 boyz + nob w/PK in Trukk w/ram and boarding plank
11 boyz + nob w/PK in Trukk w/ram and boarding plank
11 boyz + nob w/PK in Trukk w/ram and boarding plank

ELITES
5 tankbustas (1 tankhammer)
5 tankbustas (1 tankhammer)
6 tankbustas (1 tankhammer)

FAST
3 buggies, twin-linked rokkits
3 buggies, twin-linked rokkits
3 buggies, twin-linked rokkits

HEAVY
Battlewagon, ram, plank, armor plates, wreckin ball
Battlewagon, ram, plank, armor plates, wreckin ball
Battlewagon, ram, plank, armor plates, wreckin ball

....OR

Ghaz
30 boyz
30 boyz
30 boyz
30 boyz
30 boyz
30 boyz

15 lootas
15 lootas

I can say this. Its a very strange list. And I would gak myself if I saw it across the table, just for the fact I cant rely on only crippling 2 or 3 units to win.

Wow lots of tanks.

But what happens when you go up against IG?

AgeOfEgos wrote:

whitedragon wrote:Can all the Long Fangs fire from the Rhino's "1" fire point?

2 Fangs can fire through the port and split fire if need be. I've mulled over it for my heavy as well, here's the comparison

My bad, I didn't notice that only two of them had heavy weapons.

Lots of targets. What can fire at multiple target tank and have some chance at effecting them.

Triple monolith spam (Gauss flux arc) with another 3 bunches of destroyers. A lord with an orb, along with 10-12+ warriors who somehow guarantee themselves cover are extremely hard to kill as two 4+ saves, one-after-the-other is just nuts. So that does alievate some of the issue with being able to field 9 lascannons & 9-18 tl-plasma gun shots along with another 9 krak/frag missiles.

Thats my plan, any good?

If the army gets the 2nd turn you have the capability to destroy a good portion of firepower on the first turn with several armies.

Imperial guard w/ 2 Platoon HQ w/ Chimera w/ Autocannon 4 troops w. Autocannon and Chimera

6 Chimeras w/ 18 ST6 shots , 18 Heavy Bolter Rounds 12 Autocannon shots

Any shoot heavy army will have fun with that.

Also, with small troop numbers in rhinos for instance specifically the long fangs you have a ST4 hit on explosion and a 50 percent chance to wound.

Once things start blowing up you are going to start losing squad members.

Okay, how about this?

Eldrad
Plain autarch
3X3 vypers, scatterlaser turret & hull shuriken cannon
3 Falcons, scatterlaser turret, hull cannon

Fill out the rest of the list with DAVU serpents packing scatterlaser turrets and hull shuricannons, or with guardian jetbikes packing shuricannons

Add 1-2 minsized fire dragon units for AV14 and maybe a small 5-warlock foot retinue for walker-hunting to make it an all-comers list.

Using scatterlasers and standing off from the razors at range 30+, I think this list can muster enough volume of str6 firepower to disable a lot of razors in a single volley. Using cover, Eldrad's multiple fortune, holofields and energy fields minimizes the impact of return fire, while a couple of judicious guide spells increases the impact of the volume fire. Then once some razors are shaken/crippled, you close in with shuriken cannons to torrent the remaining vehicles and infantry to death.

This army has the advantage that, if it goes second, you can put everything in reserve and still bring in units quickly enough (and use standoff ranges) to throw out more damaging shots than you take. One volley from a DAVU serpent with a scatterlaser turret is probably going to destroy (or at least shake) a single typhoon while the vyper squadrons can concentrate fire on the razors. Anything that's shaken can go flat out for cover and provide cover for other tanks in subsequent turns. The scatterlasers are essential, though, since with cannons you'd have to close to 24" and take return fire from plasma, which kills vypers dead and shakes AR12 vehicles fairly easily.

Also I suspect from what I'm hearing about Tyranids, this army might be effective against them as well (not to mention other hordes, as well as light-armor mech armies).

A 9-wave serpent list with all scatter laser wave serpents could do well too, with 9 2x Scatter laser warwalkers. They'll do a fine job of popping tanks at an alarming rate, and fairly reliably at LEAST shutting down their shooting. And on the plus side they can table most other armies too.

How many points would this be?
The Serpents alone cost about 1000 pts.

Im sure there are multiple armies that can be built to beat it but ultimately it comes down to is that a great idea in a tourney setting?

A take all comes list will have some dfficulty with it.

Its a repetitive spam list pure and simple.

[additional notes]

I'm not usually a fan of vypers, but experience has suggested to me that while a couple of small squadrons of AR10 vehicles is pretty easy to kill, 2-3 squadrons of 3 is appreciably harder to kill (even if they are open-topped). Especially if they have weapons that allow them to stand off at a range longer than 24" where most skimmer-squadron-killer weapons top out.

Also a vehicle squadron is more durable against long-range, single-shot weapons like lascanons or missiles because, if one vehicle in the squadron is damaged but not destroyed by a single-shot weapon, you can throw subsequent single shots on the damaged vehicle and basically force the hit to go to waste.

That combined with the fact that a holofield falcon in cover (especially with fortune) can still eat lascannon shots all day and basically usually come away just shaken means no really good targets for all those lascannons.

Fabius Bile

Chosen Chaos Space Marines 1
7 Chosen w/Icon of Chaos Glory, Autocannon, Two Plasma Guns, Two Power Weapons

Chosen Chaos Space Marines 2
7 Chosen w/Icon of Chaos Glory, Autocannon, Two Plasma Guns, Two Power Weapons

Chaos Space Marines 1
10 CSM w/Icon of Chaos Glory, Plasma Gun, Autocannon

Chaos Space Marines 2
10 CSM w/Icon of Chaos Glory, Plasma Gun, Autocannon

Chaos Space Marines 3
10 CSM w/Icon of Chaos Glory, Plasma Gun, Autocannon

Chaos Space Marines 4
10 CSM w/Icon of Chaos Glory, Plasma Gun, Autocannon

Havoc Chaos Space Marines 1
8 CSM w/Icon of Chaos Glory, Four Autocannons

Havoc Chaos Space Marines 2
8 CSM w/Icon of Chaos Glory, Four Autocannons

Havoc Chaos Space Marines 3
8 CSM w/Icon of Chaos Glory, Four Autocannons

81 bodies, 8 Plasma Guns, 18 Rhino-chewing Autocannons in 9 groups.

Basically the Chosen set up forward and the rest set up well back beyond Plasma range. The priority targets are the Long Fangs and Land Speeders, and then the Razorbacks. Once all the vehicles are put down, Bile comes out from where he's been hiding and leads the survivors of all that Lascannon and Missile fire in a Space Wolf stomping orgy.

The idea is paper to this hail of rocks: no vehicles to take out so all that Lascannon fire is wasted, range to stay out of Plasma Gun range (well, that's what cover is for, amirite?), and enough bodies to suck up casualties and hand them back in spades.

You can make the list more flexible by turning all the Autocannons in it into Missile Launchers and trading up the Plasma Guns for Melta Guns, but otherwise the notion is essentially the same.

olympia wrote: If you can't beat them, join them!

Gets stomped by Vulkan

Razerous wrote:Thats my plan, any good?

I think it's actually a pretty solid solution. Can it beat Vulkan, though? Triple Mono and "bunches" (don't know if you mean 3 of 1 or 3 of 3) begins to eat up points quick. Seems like you run out of bodies for Phase at that point.

Flavius infernus wrote:Okay, how about this?

This is actually closer to what I envisioned with Eldar rather than Seer Councils, since getting 2nd turn doesn't hurt you very much due to reserves/turbo. I think it'd have a good shot. The big reason I like this type of list is because you can afford to "lose" first turn; most other solutions rely on some version of Alpha Strike.

This brings up perhaps a broader topic. Many of the solutions posited by gunline armies like IG suggest getting first turn is the deal maker/breaker against this type of list... a fair assessment due to the relative fragility of mass AV11 chassis if your army is capable of reaching out and touching them from the get-go. 5th ed was rather revolutionary relative to 4th due to the sudden attractiveness of 2nd turn for objective denial. It seems that the SW dex, and now others, are capable of putting so much firepower on the table that the Alpha Strike is really coming back into vogue. Perhaps Tyranids will shake this up, but for the short term it does seem that the metagame is shifting a bit again to focus much more heavily on long range firepower.

The issue with that, from a metagame perspective, is that these kind of light-chassis-vehicle spam armies are taking the same gamble that similar counterbuilds do. Against any really shooty opponent, they are really counting on first turn. If they don’t get it, they can take substantial, potentially crippling damage.

The Razor spam army doesn’t want to reserve up either, as it will trickle in and allow the opponent to focus fire too much. From the tournament metagame perspective, such an army can be devastating, but if it fails to get first turn against a really shooty opponent, it’s kind of eliminated itself by being such a one-trick pony. That might have something to do with why you don’t see these kind of armies very often at tournaments.

Mannahnin wrote: That might have something to do with why you don’t see these kind of armies very often at tournaments.

It also requires 9 razorbacks and 3 rhinos, that's 12 tanks, what space marine player builds 12 tanks?

I keep wanting to say that 'rifleman dreads and longbow dreads will break this list' but it's not really true, not unless there are also 6 tactical squads with MLs and now you have a very points-heavy list.

edit- However, missilelauncher-meltagun tactical squads, six of them, can (in theory) hit up 12 tanks in the shooting phase. If they've got vulcan on their side, some or maybe all of their shots are twin-linked.

What about a landraider spam list? With only 6 meltas and a bunch of lascannons, any army that can put 4+ raiders at 2000pts could give that list fits.

It seems like some common units, such as IG blob platoons or Loota mobs, would be very difficult for this list to dislodge if properly spaced. The lack of ways to beat cover hurts in 5th edition; if the Razorbacks move up to use their flamers, they can't fire at maximum effectiveness, while if they stand and fire, the troops inside are fairly worthless. Though there are several missile launchers in the list that could fire frag missiles and thus provide some utility against hordes, 6 of those missiles come from Land Speeders, which are incredibly vulnerable to long-range anti-tank firepower.

On the other hand, this type of army will probably kill any force that's wholly reliant on melta weapons for anti-tank. In a situation like this, you really need long-range firepower from the get-go. Melta guns are almost worthless since the melta unit, once you factor in its transport, will always cost more than one of these tanks, and can only be used in a "mopping up" capacity if you don't want it to commit suicide. Even if you somehow assume that you can engage the enemy tanks without a transport, the cheapest normal meltagun unit (5 ISTs with 2 meltaguns) costs almost the same as its targets!

Shas'el- plasma, missile, ta, hwmt, 1 SD, bk, hwtl 122
2 Shas'vre- plasma, missile, ta, hwmt, 1hwtl 1x1 SD 184
Shas'el- plasma, missile, ta, hwmt, 1 SD, bk, hwtl 122
2 Shas'vre- plasma, missile, ta, hwmt, 1hwtl 1x1 SD 184

ELITE
3 Deathrains- tl, fl, bsf 141
3 Deathrains- tl, fl, bsf 141
3 Deathrains- tl, fl, bsf 141

TROOPS
6 FCW- 60
10 Kroot- 5 hounds [100]
10 Kroot- 5 hounds [100]
10 Kroot- [70]

HEAVY SUPPORT
2 Broadsides- sms, ass, team leader with hwtl, hwbsf, 2 sd, bk
2 Broadsides- sms, ass, team leader with hwtl, hwbsf, 2 sd, bk
2 Broadsides- sms, ass, team leader with hwtl, hwbsf, 2 sd, bk

1989 Points- 14 KPs. 0 vehicles, 77 models. 6 railguns at different targets, 9 tlmps at 6 different targets, 4 BS4 plasma/missile at 4 different targets, 2 BS5 plasma/missile at 2 different targets

This is something I came up with quickly. I am not familiar with SW lists so maybe there is a counter in there...

The kroot provide cover saves for everything and basically sit there to soak up the charge ... everything else goes for the wipe out. The FCW stay in reserve to come on and take an objective in my deployment zone late game. The small kroot MAY outflank to contest. it's basically the anti-mech list. Alternately, you could drop some kroot and random upgrades for some more gun/shield drones on all the suit squads to soak up those single lascannon shots. Sit everything in cover and you've got a rock against this army's scissor.

Mannahnin wrote:The issue with that, from a metagame perspective, is that these kind of light-chassis-vehicle spam armies are taking the same gamble that similar counterbuilds do. Against any really shooty opponent, they are really counting on first turn. If they don’t get it, they can take substantial, potentially crippling damage.

I think it's a reasonable risk with rhino chassis vehicles because you have different, arguably better defense options on deployment compared to Eldar or Tau skimmers. If you draw second turn, instead of having to put everything in reserve, you can conga up for turn 1 (and even use terrain better, since you deploy second and can see where the opponent is). With the more-expendable rhinos in front you can get a 3+ save on most/all your razors without impairing their firepower, since the turrets can see over the top. Then if you seize the initiative, you've got the game in the bag, but even if not, there aren't many armies that can disable that many razors in one turn when they're shrugging off 2/3 of the damaging hits.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Nurglitch wrote:Fabius Bile (snip)

I think this foot army is weak against razor spam wolves for the same reason that all foot armies are tending to be weak against mech: your shots are hitting vehicles; his shots are hitting bodies. He'll be on the objectives first with superior mobility, and then you're stuck either trying to shoot space wolves off of objectives with autocannons (assuming you can even see them with static shooting) or moving up--and not shooting--for an assault, all the while taking fire.

You talk about staying at long range, but the mobile force--not the static one--controls the range of engagement. In a KP mission he'll be able to refuse a flank to outrange half your guns while rolling up to one end and focusing fire to take out the static line piecemeal, or close to short range with smoke, then use any remaining plasma at rapid fire range, along with flamers and assault, to knock out swaths of Bile's boyz.

Flavius Infernus wrote:
You talk about staying at long range, but the mobile force--not the static one--controls the range of engagement.

You forget though, in objective games, both players place objectives. I do however agree with you, the wolves can outrange and outshoot Fabius' boys in most game types. But there are ways that foot infantry can win games. I mean sure, he kills bodies, but those bodies are not carrying special weapons, he has enough lascannons to wipe out a squad....if he hits with all of them, and the opponent dosn't pass/get his cover save.

It seems like the suggestions have gone around for a full circle.

Like Sourclams has stated, any 'focused' gunline will likely win if given first turn. Even some that are a little more well rounded than this one. Point for point, you can do this kind of spam with just about any army, but spam creates vulnerabilities.

Other than for fun games, you'd be nuts to actually run this list. Every time you face a gunline in a tourney with it, you basically just flip a coin to see who wins. And then every game of KP you play, you lose... unless facing a mirror army. That right there is a recipie for an early exit from the top tables. You could technically get a good spread of non shooty opponents, and be playing in a tourney with no KP, and win a tourney (or more likely an RTT) with this thing.

This threads value was in the exercise of 'beating' the list in your head. Whatever army you play, you need enough gas to beat a list like this some percentage of the time. However unlikely it is that you'll face it. If your army list is old and outdated, because you didn't want to buy and paint new models, or you are slow to adapt to the new concepts in 5th, then this army would just swiftly demonstrate your need to get to the woodshed. Demons need to incorporate speed in their lists, and need to focus on rear armor 10, front armor 11/12... IG needs 48" weapons almost to the exclusion of all else (except for a few meltas for insurance), space marines need to keep taking land raiders and assault terminators. And also need some long range supporting fire. Eldar should build lists with the intent to start off table if they don't go first.

I'm glad kill points exist to at least slow down MSU spammy lists. It's my own opinion of course. But it doesn't look fun to play against more than a couple times.

Shep,
It seems that anyone who runs this type of list is gambling that 1/3 of the games only will be KP and that they will have a tableable [sic] opponent in a kp game. These are not actually bad odds to play eh?

How about...

chaplain 100
terminator assault + LR 450
Tactical flamer/ml 170
Tactical flamer/ml 170
Tactical flamer/ml 170
LR 250
LR 250
LR 250
typhoon speeder 90
typhoon speeder 90

Dracos wrote:How about...

chaplain 100
terminator assault + LR 450
Tactical flamer/ml 170
Tactical flamer/ml 170
Tactical flamer/ml 170
LR 250
LR 250
LR 250
typhoon speeder 90
typhoon speeder 90

Not a balanced army, doesn't beat Vulkan.

All of these match up against the razorback list. And the first 4 don't have to go first.

The mono-tzeentch daemon army will do well.

Your standard 9 oblit lash list will do alright.

Funny enough nob bikers will fair pretty good against this as well.

Loota Horde

Kan Wall

Mech IG, non vet

A tau mostly infantry list with sides, kroot, suits, and finder's. (not too sure how this plays out against vulkan tho).

I think the list get's much nastier, if you ditch the rhino's on the long fangs and heavy weapon them up, so that you have 4 missile launchers and a las cannon coming out of each of the long fang squads. Add in the points for the cyclone terminator to add into those squads, and it gets even better.

Flavius Infernus:

I'd disagree. The mobility factor was accounted for by the range of Autocannons and the infiltrating Chosen. Mobility only saves you if you can outrange your opponent and thus control the coverage of the field. Moreover while Bile's army is shooting vehicles, they're shooting AV11/10 vehicles with Autocannons, the ideal anti-light vehicle weapon. In return those masses of bodies are absorbing anti-tank fire if it gets past their cover. Notice especially the range, if the Wolves can shoot Bile's force, the Chaos Space Marines can shoot back. Whether the Wolves try a refused flank or gamble on reserves, it's in the Chaos Space Marine's interest to clam up in a firebase and let the Wolves come to them. The CSM anti-Rhino firepower only increases if the Wolves try to close, and without their vehicles the Space Wolves themselves will be in the same boat but at a disadvantage in material. That's not even mentioning how the CSM can turn the objectives into kill-zones.

Something I think nobody has pointed out is the sheer mass of vehicles on the board. You'd practically have to play on an open board to avoid giving away cover saves, or presenting the Space Wolves to their opponents piecemeal.

Given the prevalence of non-standard missions in tournaments these days 26 kp might not be a handicap at all. At the Irish GT there were six games and only one was a standard KP mission.

I'd run Stelek's Vyper list:
http://www.yesthetruthhurts.com/2009/12/eldar-analysis-different-way-of-doing.html