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Sucks to be right all the time.

we are a beautiful snowflake of a country

..falling ?

You know it is an interesting point you bring up about nationalism/patriotism. More comes to when is enough enough, and when should one love their country more. All Americans (short of the indians YEP I SAID INDIANS) are or were at one point foreigners. My own father came from Melbourne Austraila and my family is still all there, while my mothers side has been in the states since the early colonist. So I ask myself puting on a army uniform every day what do i believe in.

I have friends who tell me how great America is and how we are the best but when I say well join the army I am told "HELL NO". They are very patriotic, but not willing to make sacrifices for their country hrmmm. To be a soldier in America, as I only speak of my experiences in this Army not others, One must forgo all rights that a citizen gets. The truth is you become for better lack of a word Property. I give up my right to freedom of speech, but I strongly pick up the right to bare arms(VERY THANKFULL).

I turned down a promising life to pick up another one in service of something greater. I have beenserving 9 years now, and it is funny because people say "OO you must really love your country". I do, but the fact is I am still in as more of a victim of circumstance. Truthfully most lifers I talk to never intended to stay inthat long just well happened. Really and I have digressed I am a patriot, and would gladly give my life in service of my flag, my family, but more importantly my homeland, and it saddens me to see people who hate me so much in my own country just because I wear a unifrom. I have had rocks thrown at me, spit on, and been called a baby killer, but you know what I don't mind to much because if it wasn't for patriots like me then they couldnt do that. Cheers to all of you patriots and thanks for reading my two cents.

I like ireland, in a lot of ways. Especially I like some of the attitudes we tell ourselves we have. As a reality though, this country is corrupt and full of complete morons and has far too high a tolerance for dishonesty, and far too little respect for the things that make it a wonderful place.
So I'm a patriot I suppose in that I want to improve my country and make it closer to what I see as it's best qualities, but I don't blindly love it and will often viciously criticise it and the people living in it and especially running it. I think it is completely possibly to be highly critical and patriotic, in fact I think it's bloody essential. I'm not nationalistic, I think, and definitely not jingoistic.
Because of these feelings, even though the populace and government make me furiously angry on a regular basis, I'm not gonna emigrate. I'll stay here and do what I am able to to improve things.

JEB_Stuart wrote:

sebster wrote:It's pronounced Istanbul, not Constantinople, Istanbul, not Constantinople.

Wrong, especially for when the song was written, and really for the entirety of history pre-1930. Historically speaking it has been and will always be Constantinople. Byzantium was a fishing village, but Constantinople was the first World city, and is sadly now a shadow of its former self....damn Turks.....

Istanbul is still amazing.

Mannahnin wrote:

JEB_Stuart wrote:

sebster wrote:It's pronounced Istanbul, not Constantinople, Istanbul, not Constantinople.

Wrong, especially for when the song was written, and really for the entirety of history pre-1930. Historically speaking it has been and will always be Constantinople. Byzantium was a fishing village, but Constantinople was the first World city, and is sadly now a shadow of its former self....damn Turks.....

Istanbul is still amazing.

Mr. Stewart is very much correct, as it is Constantinople and was named that after the late roman emporer constatine who is heavily noted for many things including I believe moving the capital of rome to the city. Don't quote as it has been a while since studying the history of that region. Though I fail to see what this has to do with patriotism.

Are you saying that a silly song from a silly album may not be used as a credible source when studying the history of the region?

As Oscar said, Patriotism is the virtue of the viscious. I bet the Klu Klux Clan, IRA, BNP, all consider themselves Patriots.

Something primal in us tells us to be "proud" of where we are from, but my rational mind fights against it.

I do not that that patriotism is a good thing at all, it is far far too close to "brainwashed rampant distaste for other people"

Another example is Scots that have a deep rooted hatred for the 59 million hard working people they live next door too. (English people) I bet they are "proud" and "patriotic" Scots.

I try not to concern myself with such trivial thoughts.

mattyrm wrote:Another example is Scots that have a deep rooted hatred for the 59 million hard working people they live next door too

Gosh I wonder why.

mattyrm wrote:As Oscar said, Patriotism is the virtue of the viscious. I bet the Klu Klux Clan, IRA, BNP, all consider themselves Patriots.

Something primal in us tells us to be "proud" of where we are from, but my rational mind fights against it.

I do not that that patriotism is a good thing at all, it is far far too close to "brainwashed rampant distaste for other people"

Another example is Scots that have a deep rooted hatred for the 59 million hard working people they live next door too. (English people) I bet they are "proud" and "patriotic" Scots.

I try not to concern myself with such trivial thoughts.

Using the Ku Klux Klan is a very bad example, because it is in out constitution in the U.S that when Gov't has outlived it's usefullnes it is the right of the people to rise up and overthrow said gov't to implace upon it one of the people, by the people, and for the people. This is summary of coarse.

Empchild wrote:

mattyrm wrote:As Oscar said, Patriotism is the virtue of the viscious. I bet the Klu Klux Clan, IRA, BNP, all consider themselves Patriots.

Something primal in us tells us to be "proud" of where we are from, but my rational mind fights against it.

I do not that that patriotism is a good thing at all, it is far far too close to "brainwashed rampant distaste for other people"

Another example is Scots that have a deep rooted hatred for the 59 million hard working people they live next door too. (English people) I bet they are "proud" and "patriotic" Scots.

I try not to concern myself with such trivial thoughts.

Using the Ku Klux Klan is a very bad example, because it is in out constitution in the U.S that when Gov't has outlived it's usefullnes it is the right of the people to rise up and overthrow said gov't to implace upon it one of the people, by the people, and for the people. This is summary of coarse.

Actually it is a pretty good example as the KKK is textbook case of Exceptionalism run amok. They consider themselves fiercely patriotic, so much so that they need to keep the coloreds, Jews, and Catholics in their place. The KKK isn't trying to overthrow the US government, they are trying to keep the country safe for white protestants.

In fairness our founding fathers would be consider overly patriotic and people who "run a muck". Since though they won we consider them great Americans, but in actually they were terrorists of the time. The KKK is actually no longer it has broken down into several hundred diferent "klan" groups that vie for power amoungst themselves with the two largest being the Knights of the Ku Klux Klan, and the Imperial Klans of America. The are hailed by the U.S Gov't as dangerous groups because they have publicly advocated overthrow of the Gov't. If you don't believe me check out the FBI, and ATF's wesites for dangerous organizations. So that said I am willing to "disscuss" this futher is you so desire since it is rather on the topic of patriotism.

lol Ahtman, i didnt say "clever" or "strong" or any other absurd one word complimentary stereotypes, but i wanted a word that kinda, sums up how we are all essentially identical. ie. We all just generally born, educate, work to feed our kids and then die. Something that makes me think that Nationilism or a dislike for someone merely because of their geographical location at birth is just ridiculous.

And the KKK are not a bad example emp. Every single bigot i ever met in my life would define themselves as a patriot. Every single one. Why else do they not want anybody different from them to be near them? Its a classic example, and if you talk to someone in the KK i guarantee they would say something along the lines of

"i love this country, i love this country! thats why i dont want it getting screwed up by X"

Empchild wrote:In fairness our founding fathers would be consider overly patriotic and people who "run a muck". Since though they won we consider them great Americans, but in actually they were terrorists of the time. The KKK is actually no longer it has broken down into several hundred diferent "klan" groups that vie for power amoungst themselves with the two largest being the Knights of the Ku Klux Klan, and the Imperial Klans of America. The are hailed by the U.S Gov't as dangerous groups because they have publicly advocated overthrow of the Gov't. If you don't believe me check out the FBI, and ATF's wesites for dangerous organizations. So that said I am willing to "disscuss" this futher is you so desire since it is rather on the topic of patriotism.

I'm thinking of the older forms admittedly; the "Birth of a Nation" group. The modern Klan is radically different, yes, with some trying to legitimize it and go non-violent and others, especially the neo-Nazi hybrids, being more vicious and indeed wanting that. You also haven't denied the role that Exceptionalism plays in these groups, of which patriotism is a factor. It is also very disingenuous to compare Benjamin Franklin to a Grand Dragon and smacks of being a straw man. If you want to talk about the nature of terrorist vs where you stand in history that is a completely different thread and way OT of this topic.

Empchild wrote:... I am a patriot, and would gladly give my life in service of my flag, my family, but more importantly my homeland, and it saddens me to see people who hate me so much in my own country just because I wear a unifrom. I have had rocks thrown at me, spit on, and been called a baby killer, but you know what I don't mind to much because if it wasn't for patriots like me then they couldnt do that. Cheers to all of you patriots and thanks for reading my two cents.

I for one thank you for being selfless enough to put on that uniform every day. Thank you for defending us from those that would do us harm. There is real evil in this world, and good men and women like yourself that would stand in the breach to defend us from it and for that we are grateful.

Ahtman I do agree with you on the early klan and didn't realize that you were implying upon them. My grandmother would strongly disagree with me being as she grew up in Indiana in the 20's but that is niether here nor there.AS per the founding fathers it does go along the patriotism line as really patriots as you have well explained are seen as such in their own eyes, but to their enemies they are terroists. I am sure Micheal Collins can be refered to as a terrorist by the british, yet his dreams for a free Ireland and his willingness to sacrifice himself for that cause lead to such.

And Git thank you for the polite words, I must rofess though I never really know how to respond to those such as yourself being as it's well different to put it mildly. I have had some very greatful and wonderful individuals buy me lunch and give good words so not everyone is bad. Just times are tough and I think the youth of America is being taught by the Hippies of the 60's and it is rubbing off in a negative way.

Empchild, sorry you see such horrible things, the vast majority of people I know would never dare sully the name of a serviceman for being a serviceman, even if they don't support war or military actions.

People like the WBC, picketing soldiers' funerals, disgust me. The Patriot Guard Riders do their job well, even in the face of ridiculous litigation.

As for Patriotism, I think the term has been hijacked and used for political and religious propaganda, universally. No surprise really, but everyone who has opinions of what their country should be are patriots. If you believe in your country, rather than the politics behind it, from a geographical, philosophical, or any other -phical way, then you are a patriot.

Cant say I give a gak about my country, patrotisem is not to be found in me. Anybody with a spre army want a gakky country lead by a assortment of mixed idiots and wana be US butt friends?

I love this country, I hate the people that live in it. Am I a patriot?

Anshal wrote:Cant say I give a gak about my country, patrotisem is not to be found in me. Anybody with a spre army want a gakky country lead by a assortment of mixed idiots and wana be US butt friends?

I know this is being lost in the translation so does anyone know what this persons trying to say?

Yeah Shuma, loving your country =/= loving the people in it.

He/she is saying they don't give a crap about their country and wants to know if anybody wants a crappy country with a crappy army that are butt buddies with the US of A.

Empchild wrote:

Anshal wrote:Cant say I give a gak about my country, patrotisem is not to be found in me. Anybody with a spre army want a gakky country lead by a assortment of mixed idiots and wana be US butt friends?

I know this is being lost in the translation so does anyone know what this persons trying to say?

ShumaGorath wrote:I love this country, I hate the people that live in it. Am I a patriot?

Yeah, that's pretty much the difference between patriotism and nationalism.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Empchild wrote:

Anshal wrote:Cant say I give a gak about my country, patrotisem is not to be found in me. Anybody with a spre army want a gakky country lead by a assortment of mixed idiots and wana be US butt friends?

I know this is being lost in the translation so does anyone know what this persons trying to say?

That he is either indifferent with respect to his country, or dislikes it. Depends on whether or not he's speaking in hyperbole.

Shuma you realize that what you said is basically an oxymoron right? Because a country is not made by the land a map says it holds, but by the people who run it from day to day, and make it what it is.

I am sure Micheal Collins can be refered to as a terrorist by the british, yet his dreams for a free Ireland and his willingness to sacrifice himself for that cause lead to such.

How about the PLO, or Hamas? Iraqi insurgents? The Tamil Tigers? Hell, lets throw the Taliban into the mix! Not flaming you at all mate, but if you accept the legitimacy of the IRA's armed struggle...

I'm not taking a position here, just putting it out there.

Empchild wrote:Shuma you realize that what you said is basically an oxymoron right? Because a country is not made by the land a map says it holds, but by the people who run it from day to day, and make it what it is.

1. a state or nation: What European countries have you visited?
2. the territory of a nation.
3. the people of a district, state, or nation: The whole country backed the president in his decision.

Not by the first two definitions. Besides, I can enjoy a countries works and hate it's populace for being stupid, lazy, and self destructive.

Albatross wrote:

I am sure Micheal Collins can be refered to as a terrorist by the british, yet his dreams for a free Ireland and his willingness to sacrifice himself for that cause lead to such.

How about the PLO, or Hamas? Iraqi insurgents? The Tamil Tigers? Hell, lets throw the Taliban into the mix! Not flaming you at all mate, but if you accept the legitimacy of the IRA's armed struggle...

I'm not taking a position here, just putting it out there.

The PLO I will swing you, but hamas doesnt screme for freedom of any nation just unifacation of their side of islam, as well as the destruction of others who don't think like them. Iraqi insurgents believe it or not as I have fought them fight for power not for freedom. They have freedom they just want power. I don't know anything about the tamil tigers so I venture I 'll google them later, and the taliban were a politacal party initally(well sorta). Not argueing just adding onto. As I stated before terrorism vs patriotism is all on which side wins sad to say.

@Empchild - my point is that all of these groups would consider themselves patriotic.

Ahtman wrote:Are you saying that a silly song from a silly album may not be used as a credible source when studying the history of the region?

But can you deny that even old New York was once New Amsterdam? Or the combat prowess of of Particle Man?

Empchild wrote: As I stated before terrorism vs patriotism is all on which side wins sad to say.

yep sums it up.