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He committed a crime. The nation he was in performed it's punishment. If he didn't want to be executed, he shouldn't have smuggled drugs. End of Discussion.

There was the notion because he was a homeless drifter, and because the rush to execution was fast, even for china.

Green Blow Fly wrote:

crank is pure evil. To me it does not matter if he owned it or not.

G

Wo thats harsh! Crank wasn't exactly Twelve Angry Men but come on it wasn't that bad.

ShumaGorath wrote:

He committed a crime. The nation he was in performed it's punishment. If he didn't want to be executed, he shouldn't have smuggled drugs. End of Discussion.

There was the notion because he was a homeless drifter, and because the rush to execution was fast, even for china.

And? Does being a homeless Drifter make you immune to prosecution now? And the "rush" to execution was only "fast" because you are comparing it to the god awful US system. In China, that is normally how fast executions take place, given what little we know as it is.

Gwar! wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

He committed a crime. The nation he was in performed it's punishment. If he didn't want to be executed, he shouldn't have smuggled drugs. End of Discussion.

There was the notion because he was a homeless drifter, and because the rush to execution was fast, even for china.

And? Does being a homeless Drifter make you immune to prosecution now? And the "rush" to execution was only "fast" because you are comparing it to the god awful US system. In China, that is normally how fast executions take place, given what little we know as it is.

Hold on he was arrested on 2007, thats hardly fast. Sure its not sitting on death row for ten years, but that isnt justice, its a cash pit for lawyers and a chance for state governors to make thier mark to the electorate.

The least un-civilised responce if you are going to have a death penalty, is that you fast track their appeals, if it fails you get the sentence over and done with. Normally within three weeks of the last appeal, time enough for the condemned to get used to the idea they are facing death - so they can prepare themselves, not long enouggh to draw out the process.

This does mean I am agreeing with Gwar! but so be it.

And? Does being a homeless Drifter make you immune to prosecution now?

Nope, I'm just telling you to shut up when you start crying about how "everyone gets treated like they were mentally ill" when in this specific case there was a strong possibility of it.

And the "rush" to execution was only "fast" because you are comparing it to the god awful US system. In China, that is normally how fast executions take place, given what little we know as it is.

China also executes a lot of innocent people. A lot.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/11/05/ap/asia/main5531194.shtml

Go ahead and tell me how much more wonderful the chinese system is. Please.

Hold on he was arrested on 2007, thats hardly fast. Sure its not sitting on death row for ten years, but that isnt justice, its a cash pit for lawyers and a chance for state governors to make thier mark to the electorate.

Actually thats largely a series of waits between trial, and not a giant circus of lawyers.

The least un-civilised responce if you are going to have a death penalty, is that you fast track their appeals, if it fails you get the sentence over and done with. Normally within three weeks of the last appeal, time enough for the condemned to get used to the idea they are facing death - so they can prepare themselves, not long enouggh to draw out the process.

Is that what chinese law does? By what I understood the have far less tolerance for appeals court.

Maybe we should all lionize him as a matyr & saint.

G

I am not supporting Chinese 'justice', just reacting to comments that the road to execution was rushed.

Brings us back to the first point, if Gordon Brown acrtually gave a damn, the embassy might have got the accused a lawyer, or turned up at the appeals court to see he got representation.

The half hour trial was a little rushed, I grant you that. Though it did look a bit like an open-shut case anyway.

4kg in his suitcase, is drug sumuggling, its not like cases in Dubai where people are arrested and imprisoned for having traces of drugs on the soles of their shoes.

A man got executed for the offence of drug smuggling. Fair enough you might think, - regardless of the quick trial or his alleged heath issues. But, I for one do not condone capital punishment in any way, shape or form.

Life in the most horrid gaol of China; yes, but taking his life; no.

Sorry, but it's just how I feel on the subject.

A half hour trial is a joke. I've spent 15 minutes in court over a dispute about a lost silk scarf.

You may think I'm a trendy lefty and the British system is inefficient but where would you rather live?

I'm not saying this guy was innocent just that he clearly did not get a fair trial.

All I know (having read the newspapers here) is that he was sentenced after his family arrived to state that he was mentally ill. Apparently they asked for documentation/proof and none was provided.

Open and shut case in my book. It didn't really need longer than 30 mins.

At one time China had some very serious problems with hard drugs so I can understand where they are coming from on this issue. 1/2 hour trial was wrong though.

G

Personally, I believe that while the trial was rushed and his mental illness was not taken enough into consideration, the death penalty does seem to be the only way that drug crime and smuggling can be controlled. If you are arrested for drug crime in Britain, you are most likely to be let off with a slap to the wrist and "don't do it again or we'll consider giving you an official caution". China's policy, while seeming harsh does control the drug trade in Asia. Even more, this man is being defended by a country where hard addicts such as Pete Dotherty and Kerry Katona are worshipped as gods amongst men. Only when Britain sorts it's own problems out can it start to try to change the policies of other nations.

Given that the Japanese military made most of Nanking addicted to heroin whilst it slowly raped and tortured the entire city to death, I can understand the Chinese aversion to the stuff...

But the notion that China's judicial system should be held up as an ideal for the rest of us to aspire to is worrying... The human rights record of China is appalling.

The question is: what would a longer trial have accomplished?
Chances are that it was decided one way or another before it reached court.

I don't think China will be changing it's policies any time soon, although due to the soon to be Expo they are cleaning up their act... A LOT. Drunk drivers are being punished more severely and hundreds of gang related criminals are looking at life sentences. It's a good thing I think.

Kilkrazy wrote:A half hour trial is a joke. I've spent 15 minutes in court over a dispute about a lost silk scarf.

You may think I'm a trendy lefty and the British system is inefficient but where would you rather live?

I'm not saying this guy was innocent just that he clearly did not get a fair trial.

And that's my problem. I don't really care that the Chinese punished a criminal in their country. As it's been said here before, it's their country and when you go there you'd better respect their laws or face their justice system regardless of whether or not you like it. I don't care that he was put to death. I don't have a huge issue with capital punishment when applied corrected.

It's the fact that they decided this guy needed to die in the time it takes to watch an episode of M.A.S.H. I have a hard time imagining a fair trail in which you could sentence someone to a month in jail in that time, much less sentence a man to death. There's no way the man got a fair trial in 30 minutes.

Tyyr wrote:There's no way the man got a fair trial in 30 minutes.

Why? It was either fair or it wasn't. Would it have been a fair trial if they had spent 8 years on it rather than half an hour, nothing else being changed?

Tyyr wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:A half hour trial is a joke. I've spent 15 minutes in court over a dispute about a lost silk scarf.

You may think I'm a trendy lefty and the British system is inefficient but where would you rather live?

I'm not saying this guy was innocent just that he clearly did not get a fair trial.

And that's my problem. I don't really care that the Chinese punished a criminal in their country. As it's been said here before, it's their country and when you go there you'd better respect their laws or face their justice system regardless of whether or not you like it. I don't care that he was put to death. I don't have a huge issue with capital punishment when applied corrected.

It's the fact that they decided this guy needed to die in the time it takes to watch an episode of M.A.S.H. I have a hard time imagining a fair trail in which you could sentence someone to a month in jail in that time, much less sentence a man to death. There's no way the man got a fair trial in 30 minutes.

Here's the difficulty though.

If they have him
If they have the drugs
if they have a clean chain of custody of him to drugs

Then well there you go.

Gwar! wrote:Why? It was either fair or it wasn't. Would it have been a fair trial if they had spent 8 years on it rather than half an hour, nothing else being changed?

And you're assuming I consider the only determinant of a fair trial to be the time spent on it. An 8 year trial may or may not have been fair. When you've spent that long on it the time is not going to be so short as to prevent the issues from being fully considered, whether or not it was unfairly conducted in some other manner we don't know. However 30 minutes isn't enough time to fully consider the issues, not when a man's life is at stake.

Frazzled wrote:Here's the difficulty though.

If they have him
If they have the drugs
if they have a clean chain of custody of him to drugs

Then well there you go.

I'm not saying the case may not have been simple. That the prosecutions case might have been tidy. However how do you present evidence, present witnesses, challenge evidence, cross-examine witnesses, etc in 30 minutes, in the detail that should be required to sentence a man to death?

Being the Chinese legal system I'm sure they can do it, hell I give them points for actually pretending to have a trail and not just shooting him outright, but that doesn't mean it was a fair trail.

Gwar! wrote:

Tyyr wrote:There's no way the man got a fair trial in 30 minutes.

Why? It was either fair or it wasn't. Would it have been a fair trial if they had spent 8 years on it rather than half an hour, nothing else being changed?

Exchange 'fair' for 'comprehensive'...

Prosecutor introduces cop
cop introduces evidence
judge asks if defense has any witnesses
court oppointed defense says nope

judge sentences then deals with a much more complicated case of spitting on the ground.

Note I'm just theorizing as you'd need some other witnesses in a US courtroom.

Frazzled wrote:Prosecutor introduces cop
cop introduces evidence
judge asks if defense has any witnesses
court oppointed defense says nope

judge sentences then deals with a much more complicated case of spitting on the ground.

Note I'm just theorizing as you'd need some other witnesses in a US courtroom.

Psychologist produces results of exam that show the accused is mentally unstable and existing in a fantasy world, so removed from reality that he would believe some quite manipulative folks who give him a bag with drugs hidden in it and send him to one of the least tolerant societies on the face of the earth...

Discuss...

MeanGreenStompa wrote:

Frazzled wrote:Prosecutor introduces cop
cop introduces evidence
judge asks if defense has any witnesses
court oppointed defense says nope

judge sentences then deals with a much more complicated case of spitting on the ground.

Note I'm just theorizing as you'd need some other witnesses in a US courtroom.

Psychologist produces results of exam that show the accused is mentally unstable and existing in a fantasy world, so removed from reality that he would believe some quite manipulative folks who give him a bag with drugs hidden in it and send him to one of the least tolerant societies on the face of the earth...

Discuss...

prosecution: not relevant and not admissable
judge (eating local version of a bon bon): (sigh) correct. Not admitted. (looks sternly at the "defense") Do not waste our time further (guard jots down Defense attorney name for a later discussion)

Frazzled wrote:

MeanGreenStompa wrote:

Frazzled wrote:Prosecutor introduces cop
cop introduces evidence
judge asks if defense has any witnesses
court oppointed defense says nope

judge sentences then deals with a much more complicated case of spitting on the ground.

Note I'm just theorizing as you'd need some other witnesses in a US courtroom.

Psychologist produces results of exam that show the accused is mentally unstable and existing in a fantasy world, so removed from reality that he would believe some quite manipulative folks who give him a bag with drugs hidden in it and send him to one of the least tolerant societies on the face of the earth...

Discuss...

prosecution: not relevant and not admissable
judge (eating local version of a bon bon): (sigh) correct. Not admitted. (looks sternly at the "defense") Do not waste our time further (guard jots down Defense attorney name for a later discussion)

It wouldnt have gone even that far. the sdefence lawsyer would have thrown it out.

Basic question to ask: Is the judge a bleeding heart liberal? Y/N
Stock answer = N

You see all this junk about the accusd being mentally ill holds no weight in a Chinese court, in this they are more advanced then us.

Mental illness is potentially an acceptable excuse for a misdemeanour, even if someone thinks it serious. If the crime looks minor then here is room to comment that mental health issues can skew the accuseds judgement as to lawful course of action. But you have to be extra extra special to not know drug smuggling is wrong. If My Shaikh had Downs syndrome fair enough, in fact I think even China would have taken that into account and not tried him. However 'easily led' is a defence that only goes so far, if someone talis you into thinking you will get a benefit from smuggling, however spurious, that is your motive for crime.

There is no difference between a drug smuggler who smuggles 4kg because he will get a 15% cut of the deal back in mixed notes into a laundered bank account and someone who smuggles the same drugs becasue he beleived that in return the partners will fix it for him to be a rock star. Both are getting paid, both are smuggling drugs to get paid. Both pay the price.

In the other mental health case mentioned: Gary McKinnon, breaking into the Pentagon computers while looking for UFO conspiracy coverups is the sort of thing someone who is not well adjusted does, its also harmless enough, if Mckinnon was smuggling drugs all that sympathy would disappear. Aspergers or not extradite the scum and let the US courts hang him up to dry.

So it is sounding like cope you are mentally ill if you get busted.

G

MeanGreenStompa wrote:Considering the general attitude and outlook of the Chinese government (break the law and die), smuggling drugs into the country must rank as fairly high on the stupidity meter.

But as has been stated, this man may have had mental health issues.

He first learned he was about to be executed Monday from his visiting cousins, who made a last-minute plea for his life. They say he is mentally unstable and was lured to China from a life on the street in Poland by men playing on his dreams to record a pop song for world peace.

If this was the case and he was not well enough to understand his actions or even aware enough of what was happening, then I say it's a great shame. We won't get the chance to find out the full details since China is fairly adversarial in letting the rest of the world know what it's doing. Even if it's established that this homeless man was seriously mentally unwell and unable to make rational judgement then it's all too late to do much since they offed him pretty quick.

As to yachtsmen getting seized by Somali pirates, the Royal Navy should sink a couple of their ships in international waters, might give them pause for thought. The rich and stupid sailing into Iranian waters just boggles my brain.

Well given the history of Brits bringing/selling drugs in China, I can fully understand their harsh reaction.

Everyone is talking about the "British Governement"....I didn't know we had one, I thought the guys at No.10 were an offshoot of Obama's US Administration....

See, if I ever get caught with my pants round my ankles in a foreign country, I shall ask to be put through to the US Embassy, with any luck, they'll tell the UK Embassy to get involved, and then I might stand a chance.....