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Specifics:

Stop with all the Cease and Desist letters and other IP defense strategies until a more community friendly method of bringing all the IP infringers in line with IP usage.

Frequently answer frequently asked questions. I don't expect the rules to be perfect out of the gate, but I would like to have a better solution than roll a d6 for it.

Prices should reflect materials, not in game value.

There three specific demands that highlight what I feel is the problem with GW.

They keep releasing stuff I want to buy, faster than my wallet permits... That's a problem.

In all seriousness, the only issue I have is the price of some of their stuff. It doesn't need to be so high. Terminators don't need to cost $50 USD.

As for the whole IP thing. It sucks, but it doesn't seem like GW is ruthless about it, at least not IMO.

What is wrong with gw rules?

I find them good and if they dont make faq's then... uh... just make house rules on them.

That seems to be unacceptable to some folks, but its never bothered me in 15+ years of gaming. To each his/her own. I've tested the waters of a few other miniature games and GW sure doesn't have a monopoly on vague rules, typos, and lack of clear cut solutions to every possible variable.

These threads are always inevitably doomed(but can be mildly entertaining), as the varied opinions of gamers, their variable passion for or against GW pretty much rules out any reasonable discussion that could be had. Love, hate, ambivalence all seem to but their heads in these threads.

300+ c&d letters according to 40k radio
Thats not excessive

What's wrong? A total lack of respect for their customer base and a surprising lack of imagination regarding their product(s) and their business plan. Everything else stems from that.

The company goes round in ever decreasing circles because of it.

Their customers.

loki old fart wrote:300+ c&d letters according to 40k radio
Thats not excessive

If that's true, they've spent more on legal fees and postage than they probably ever lost to any IP infringement.

They'll have to put up prices to cover legal costs

MeanGreenStompa wrote:

generalgrog wrote:GW isn't going to change anything until they lose money in progressive years. They made a 5 Million pound profit last year and that = "evrything is ok" in the minds of the CEO and other managers.

GG

5 million is a fairly slender profit tbh.

Totally agree, however as has been pointed out. It all comes down what the CEO considers "slender profit". If they had planned on making 20 mil, and ended up with 5 mil, then yes it could make them stand up and take notice.

GG

oni wrote:They keep releasing stuff I want to buy, faster than my wallet permits... That's a problem.

In all seriousness, the only issue I have is the price of some of their stuff. It doesn't need to be so high. Terminators don't need to cost $50 USD.

As for the whole IP thing. It sucks, but it doesn't seem like GW is ruthless about it, at least not IMO.

Back in ole Norway Terminators costs 60USD

Terje-Tubby wrote:

oni wrote:They keep releasing stuff I want to buy, faster than my wallet permits... That's a problem.

In all seriousness, the only issue I have is the price of some of their stuff. It doesn't need to be so high. Terminators don't need to cost $50 USD.

As for the whole IP thing. It sucks, but it doesn't seem like GW is ruthless about it, at least not IMO.

Back in ole Norway Terminators costs 60USD

Ick. If they cost that much here, I'd just take a piece of paper and write "terminator; lightning claws x2" on it.

To the initial suggestion of forming a specific address or set of suggestions targetted at a small section of the company (like specific rules/faq suggestions for development or whatnot): many times in companies like this, those letters are thrown away the instant it's clear that the topic is a suggestion. Companies in the business of designing products like this generally will not accept any unsolicited ideas due to the fact that the IP or copyright is murky or disputed...when someone comes forward and claims that a new whatever from GW was their idea, they put it in a letter, and GW stole it without recompense.

Mark Rosewater of M:tG had an article about it one time. He said that the legal department absolutely does not let him read letters that have suggestions for cards, rules, or game mechanics. If it becomes clear that a letter or email contains unsolicited ideas, they trash it immediately. GW's legal policy may be similar, particularly considering how gung ho they've been lately about IP protection...they wouldn't endanger aspects of their IP by accepting and incorporated unsolicited suggestions. There are certainly cases where suggestions are taken, but only when solicited (computer game beta tests, the War Machine MkII rules field test, etc).

The issue is that they have lost their connection to their initial fan base. The perhaps now believe that there is more money in lots of players who spend like mad for a few years and move on, than in long term gamers who spend steadily over a longer period.

Who knows, from a strictly business point of view they may be right.

For me, all it has done is drive me into online comunites and local clubs to support my hobby. I also am thankful for companies like Battlefront who currently seem to be doing all the things that GW used to do. Giving away frequent updates and plenty of FAQ's via their website for example. I hope this doesn't change.

Colossal Donkey wrote:

filbert wrote:

Colossal Donkey wrote:Do you not have annual shareholders meetings? If so, why don't you get together with a group of other shareholders and make your opinions heard. Complaining by yourself just adds to the sea of noise.
If you have a group of people wanting the same thing and clearly stating it, then and only then you will have a chance of change. Otherwise it's just unfocussed rambling of the masses.
I don't really know how GW have operated throughout their existence, but it sounds like they weren't ready for the fanbase they currently have. Do the other smaller companies similar to GW work differently?

Because, as was pointed out in the last direct action proposal thread, GW is owned (at least in part) by one of these large investment companies, who quite frankly, do not give a rat's arse about the views of minority shareholders.

Fair enough, but doesn't that just put emphasis on why people who care about the business from a hobby perspective and who own shares should band together and change their minority standing to a more noticeable one?

Majority owner is a holding company.

If you're not part of the holding company you will -never- be more than a minority owner. period.

as i've said before. these guys will get their money out of GW whether the current model works or they run it in to the ground and sell the IP off in bankruptcy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

avantgarde wrote:Their customers.

could you least attempt to not be absolutely terrible at trolling?

you're the only troll here worse than Kinghammer AND Shumagorath...

Chimera_Calvin wrote:Yes, this is going exactly the way of the fan pushback thread, which is what I (foolishly) hoped to avoid. I put forward a suggestion and it would be nice for a response on that topic, not the same tired old comments about price (which won't change) and how evil GW are.

Does anyone think that change can be effected on the text written by the design studio (something that would resolve a significant proportion of the problems with GW)? If so, how can this specific be acheived?

???

What do you expect?

The issues are inherent to the system. GW is fine with status quo, and unless you are ready to start ponying up some cash and making an appearance at the head office, you can kindly step back in line with the rest of the drones.
Change?!? !@#$ Change.

You have not been in on the conversation, so obviously you haven't read the whole issue.

In general, if you think you have the stones, go to GW's head office, jump up on the CEO's desk and scream at the top of your lungs, " We're mad as hell, and we're not going to take it anymore!!!!"

This companies problems and issues stem from arrogance, not being in touch with thier customers, and thier inhearent lack of situational awareness.

They don't seen to realize that there is a economy issue going on, if they do, then they are intentionally ignoring it.

NO MONEY= No Buying.
No Standards= No Buying.
Acting like a douche+ No Buying= LOW PROFITS

What do you really want?

The topic is ad nausium at this point, and unless you actually have something specific, such as "GW, your inconsistant products SUCK. The Rules are unplayable, and your tournament support is non exisitant, so until you get that stuff squared away, lets see how much you are really worth, so when I come in with a 49-55% share, I can roll up into your office and start canning some of you D bags."

YOU are shouting at the moon and wasting your efforts that could be spent on doing something more constructive, such as just putting your GW stuff away for a year and try playing a few other different games that actually might benefit from your contributions.

This company is run by a bunch of nongaming asshats that are more interested in the bottom line and TOWING the party line. You want to rock the boat? Then get stuffed, because you are going to be crushed for inhibiting the profit margin. DOn't you really know how a corperation works?

Get in line and love BIG GW like a good little consumer, and stop worrying about this issue. You'll get more out of worrying about how to stop the tide.

Honestly, though....

If you are unhappy with this product, make your voice heard by grabbing yourself a set, buying in to a good share of thier stock, and getting yourself a representative to make your voice heard in thier board meetings. Cash says STHU louder then your petty little complaints that arn't going to be even agknowledged, anyway...

Money Talks, BS walks.


If they start getting thier bell rung finacially, then you can be sure that the "Change that you can believe in" is coming...

But you know the old saying....

Be careful what you wish for... You just might get it.

Chimera_Calvin wrote:unless the 14-year-olds stage a huge boycott.

im offended. i feel the same as most other people on this board do and your implying something else/

Their rules, above all else. If they could put a fraction of the effort they put into their models into their game then we'd all be a lot better off.

Hell, I wouldn't even have that much of a problem paying their ridiculous prices if we didn't have to suffer through downright stupid rules problems that they will never even acknowledge.

TMIR covers all rule disputes. 40k isn't black and white rules, it's grey so the customer can do what he or she wishes with it.

Chimera Calvin I think its a question of personal atitude towards GW rather than organized group actions, that will change things... for you.

I think the problem is assuming that GW is on the center of the problem, when its not... you are. Its your hobby and you enjoy it with your friends.
Today there are so many companies that can provide cheaper miniatures and you can change any rules to your preferences and employ them on your own leagues...etc
If your not happy with ONE (even if biggest) hobby company take your money elsewere, and dont let GW ruin your hobby time.

They will not listen to your claims, they will not change, yet you can have a great hobby time if you ignore them and concentrate on your own enjoyment.
I vote with my wallet, and been doing it since the last C&D mess, will not change GW but will change my personal enjoyment of the hobby... Thats much more important to me.

I go even further, I like tyranids as everyone knows but at this point GW can even trash it all and go belly up... I make my own hobby these days and getting better at it.

I find the rules problems perplexing, in that I don't understand why the problems actually exist. There's a lot of mud slung at GW for being only interested in profit, but I don't see how an interest in profit could motivate them to neglect their customers. FAQ's, optional varient army lists, etc would cost almost nothing to produce and could potentially win them a lot of sales. There seems to me to be no logical reason for them to resist providing such rules support. They already have a team of rules designers employed full time. What are these people doing with their time? If I had any financial stake in GW, I would be bringing the rules developers to task for their failure to provide rules support that could draw sales.

avantgarde wrote:Their customers.

Quoted for truth. Thank Tzeentch for the Painting and Modeling Forums.

The models cost too much.....

Samus666 wrote:I find the rules problems perplexing, in that I don't understand why the problems actually exist. There's a lot of mud slung at GW for being only interested in profit, but I don't see how an interest in profit could motivate them to neglect their customers. FAQ's, optional varient army lists, etc would cost almost nothing to produce and could potentially win them a lot of sales. There seems to me to be no logical reason for them to resist providing such rules support. They already have a team of rules designers employed full time. What are these people doing with their time? If I had any financial stake in GW, I would be bringing the rules developers to task for their failure to provide rules support that could draw sales.

that's the culture of GW.

Models > Rules.

No new model? No new rules. period.

I went into a GW in Bluewater over Christmas, and heard one of the GW worker minions telling the parent of some 13 year old player that "GW paints are best, as other companies paints can melt the plastics - ditto with the glue". I left before I could say something very rude.

It is that kind of stuff that I think annoys me the most with GW. A lot of the best hobby stuff is not made by GW (paints, glue, brushes etc) and it is often cheaper too...

No proof-reading of their codices, for both games, 'nor enough playtesting (SEE DOC in fantasy).

Aswell as outrageous prices, no, I will not pay $90 dollars for a big lump of plastic.

The only problem I have are the stupid threads about what is wrong with GW....... really if you are not happy with the company STOP buying their product. But continually posting threads about what you are going to do is getting stupid.

There are plenty of other companies with better rules you can use. If you can't stop buying GWs product then you are the problem.

Either way for the love of God and all that is holy stop the threads about what is wrong with GW..... I think the last 400 on the subject pretty much said all that had to be said.

brettz123 wrote:There are plenty of other companies with better rules you can use.

Really? There are other non-skirmish fantasy battle games that have enough people playing to make finding a game as easy as it is for WFB? Why hasn't anyone told me about them?

Howlingmoon wrote:

Samus666 wrote:I find the rules problems perplexing, in that I don't understand why the problems actually exist. There's a lot of mud slung at GW for being only interested in profit, but I don't see how an interest in profit could motivate them to neglect their customers. FAQ's, optional varient army lists, etc would cost almost nothing to produce and could potentially win them a lot of sales. There seems to me to be no logical reason for them to resist providing such rules support. They already have a team of rules designers employed full time. What are these people doing with their time? If I had any financial stake in GW, I would be bringing the rules developers to task for their failure to provide rules support that could draw sales.

that's the culture of GW.

Models > Rules.

No new model? No new rules. period.

My Master of the Forge with Conversion Beamer disagrees.

Vulcan wrote:

brettz123 wrote:There are plenty of other companies with better rules you can use.

Really? There are other non-skirmish fantasy battle games that have enough people playing to make finding a game as easy as it is for WFB? Why hasn't anyone told me about them?

1. I didn't mention easy so don't put words in my mouth.

2. Stop being lazy and get some of your friends to try something new...... I imagine you have some? Friends that is.

3. Give it a shot....... you can even use the same miniatures.

My only real gripe about GW is that all of their stuff is SOOOO EXPENSIVE. I mean, if the stuff they sold was a bit more reasonably priced, so many more people would get into the hobby. I have no idea why they don't seem to realize this, but it's true. I've been a lurker with 40k since I was 11 years old, now, 4 years later I actually have money to start now. They just lost 4 years worth of potential things I could have been buying. I now refuse to buy anything directly from GW.


Other than that, they are golden to me, and I have a generally positive opinion about them.