Dark Eldar idea

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**Thor665**

A good point about putting Lelith back in a Raider, dash. Wyches should either be in an assault or in a Raider because otherwise they're fish food to the first squad that can generate about four wounds via shooting. I am happy to see you took to heart the concept that Wyches can shoot if they don't need/want to assault.

DE assault is, of course, dictated both by what you're fighting and what you're fielding. Grimaldi is very much correct to note that DE should always have an assault element for when they need it, and is also right to note that they don't always need it (though I have not experienced his 70% ratio - but that might just be local meta I suppose).

**Dashofpepper**

Yep - still fighting off ork tendencies where I want to assault and look for an opportunity to do so? I remember you saying that wyches are a tarpit unit, meant to tie things up so that the archon can jump from combat to combat finishing it off. That's intuitive for a counter-attack or delaying tactic which you or someone else has told me is the DE assault methodology, but I don't think its quite sunk in yet.

**Grimaldi**

The wyches as a tarpit worked better in past editions, where they'd get a straight leadership check even if they lost. With 5th, though, wyches don't tarpit as well. They don't generate enough wounds against dedicated melee opponents, and so often lose combat fairly quickly. A -1/-2 to leadership makes it very likely they'll run. I find they can work decently as ablative wounds in a retinue for a character, as the character can generate plenty of wounds, or to clean up weak melee squads (IG, guardians, etc).

I view the assault element in the DE list as primarily a counter-assault piece/mop-up element. Those few times I'm outgunned, though, the ability to decisively assault and keep my opponent on the defensive is critical. It's uncomfortable, because the game often hinges on getting your flimsy vehicles in assault range, but with good use of cover, sacrificed screening raiders, flat-out cover saves and a little luck, it usually works out.

**willydstyle**

It sounds like you didn't go up against any serious competition during the tournament.

I'd say to try the current list against some good players, but considering that you had to exploit a house rule to even bring her...

**Thor665**

With all due regard, Grimaldi, I just don't see how a unit with an ignores toughness power weapon, a 4++ save, and the ability to remove attacks from an enemy and also to halve their WS doesn't still serve admirably as a tarpit unit. If you're always losing assaults with them I have to ask what is it you're assaulting? My Wyches tarpit and defeat Terminators, Daemon Princes, Nobz, and lots of other tough units. I'll agree you don't want to toss in a single squad versus something like a full mob of Ork boyz - but that hardly makes them not a tarpit unit.

Using the assault element of DE as a primarily mop-up/counter assault option is certainly a solid plan and works well with gunline focused DE. But it's not the only option available to assault DE forces, who are quite potent and can serve as a primary attack tool depending on how one builds the list.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

willydstyle wrote:It sounds like you didn't go up against any serious competition during the tournament.

I'd say to try the current list against some good players, but considering that you had to exploit a house rule to even bring her...

This reads to me as generally unnecessary and rude. He "exploited" a house rule only insomuch as he was allowed to do something via the house rule. I might as well suggest that people who play Vulkan are "exploiting" the 40k rules of flamers and melta because Vulkan lets them do something special with them. The house rule was there, he used it. Big deal.

As far as how good the players are - we do not know because at best we can read a bit about what their lists were. Without seeing the total list and seeing the board and seeing all the moves I do not see how you can judge how "good" the players he played were or are. I will agree that it didn't exactly read as top of the line tournament style armies but...well, neither was Dash's list and in the final analysis so what? It's not as though he posted this thread up with the heading "I am playing DE against super tough opponents and owned all, bow before me!"

It was discussion of a list and a mini-batrep of a local tournament.

Relax.

**Dashofpepper**

Indeed; it didn't even merit its own battle report thread. No surprise though, willydstyle has a thing for cruising around the forums being a jerk.

I'm used to it.

**willydstyle**

From your short descriptions of the battles, and from other comments that you have made, it seems clear that you are a better player than most others in your area.

If you don't have to use every unit in your list in some capacity, and you are still winning handily, I would not say that it is indicative of your opponents being very strong.

As far as using the word "exploited" I did not mean any negative connotations, it was simply the best verb I could think of using at the time

**Grimaldi**

Thor665 wrote:With all due regard, Grimaldi, I just don't see how a unit with an ignores toughness power weapon, a 4++ save, and the ability to remove attacks from an enemy and also to halve their WS doesn't still serve admirably as a tarpit unit. If you're always losing assaults with them I have to ask what is it you're assaulting? My Wyches tarpit and defeat Terminators, Daemon Princes, Nobz, and lots of other tough units. I'll agree you don't want to toss in a single squad versus something like a full mob of Ork boyz - but that hardly makes them not a tarpit unit.

Let's look at one of DoP's wych squads against one of your examples...let's say a 5 man TH/SS term squad. Wychs get, say...+1 strength (better than average result for this scenario). Succubus kills .333, the others get .54 kills, so let's say 1 total. 4 termies swing back with 1.66 kills, which means we've got a good chance of the wyches losing by one. Ldr 7 check after that, and if they disengage, they get shot apart by anything. If combat continues, wyches (lost the blasters) kill .5 marines. Marines kill 1.25 (3 attack) to 1.66 (4 attack).

Granted, the wyches have a decent chance to tie them up, but not a great one. Considering the termies cost almost twice as much, you may think it's worth it. That's kind of my experience with them in general...too close to be confident that they'll tie things up. Instead, I either move away or accept the lose of one of my many cheap, small units.

Things with a very low number of attacks, like the old carnifex, are ideal for wyches, as they can maximize the effectiveness of the agonizer and 4++ save. Too many models are getting a higher base number of attacks (orks especially, not sure about the new tyranids) so the wych weapons taking away the extra attack for an extra CCW isn't as useful as it used to be.

**Thor665**

I will note a couple of things in your example.

Firstly, +1 Str is one of the weaker options for the squad to get. Re-rolling misses and additional attacks are superior because they directly enhance the Agoniser and that's what does the killing for Wyches. Also, +1 WS is superior to +1 Str as the WS upgrade significantly effects the ability of the Terminators to hit the Wyches. So +1 Str is in the bottom half of the 6 options in my opinion. Don't get me wrong, i agree it's a great upgrade to Wyches, but I'm not sure I'd call it better then average (feel free to now do the math and prove me horribly wrong now that I've set myself up for it

)

Also, your example doesn't include any front end shooting at the 5 man Termie squad, which should be happening at least from the two blasters in the Wych squad prior to an assault, though one can always pray a splinter pistol does something. A Termie squad on the board also is pretty likely to have eaten some Ravager fire as well - but we'll just try to keep it as a theoretical 1 on 1 to save headaches I suppose - so the Wych shooting should have been accounted for,

Finally, even with that said (and I choose to avoid trying to do any math at this point in the night) as you noted there's a reasonable chance even with the example as you laid out that the Wyches tie combat with a TH/SS Termie squad - generally accredited as one of the most dangerous and optimal assault choices out there. I do believe this shows the advantages of Wyches and their ability to serve as a tarpit unit to elite combat options.

I certainly agree with you that use of movement, maneuvering, and speed are the primary defensive tools of DE. But I do believe the tarpit capabilities of the Wych squad serves a very important and potent role within the DE arsenal.

**Dashofpepper**

And if you look at Thor's signature, terrible danger awaits any who stand opposed to his wisdom!

**Thor665**

In the morning I can crunch numbers better with blessed, blessed sleep now on my side.

Thor's hopefully accurate math of assault with Wyches wrote:Wych attacks with reroll = 10.75 hit = 3.58 wound = .597 wound after armor saves
Succubus with reroll = 3 hit = 1.5 wound = .5 after armor

Wych attacks with +1 Attacks = 10 hit = 3.33 wound = .55 wound after armor
Succubus with +1 attack = 2.5 hit = 1.25 wound = .416 wound after armor saves

+1 WS with 4 Termies swinging = 2.66 hit = 2.22 wound = 1.11 after saves

I think the numbers show I was probably accurate in suggesting that the +1 Str is a sub optimal Drug when fighting TH/SS Termies - though I bet it starts to show up much better vs. some other options. The Termie's 2+ save just makes the regular Wyches' swings next to useless so since Str only amps them the drug is semi-useless vs. the wall of armor saves. I also crunched the shooting numbers;

Thor's hopefully accurate pew pew math wrote:4 pistols fire = 2.66 hit = .88 wound = .15 wounds after save
2 Blasters fire = 1.33 hit = 1.11 wound = .37 wounds after save

Which gives Wyches a vague Termie kill via shooting roughly 50% of the time which will then make a big difference when the Termies get to swing back when it comes to whether or not combat is tied. (please feel free to double check my numbers - I am a math simpleton at heart, but I'm pretty sure I'm doing these all correctly)

So that makes a squad of 6 Wyches a fairly viable option to single-handedly deal with a squad of 5 TH/SS Terminators - and as a DE player I do point out the likelihood of not having at least another squad or two who can help soften up the TH/SS prior to the Wych charge is pretty low. So probably the Wyches would really be assaulting a squad of 3-4 Termies which only increases their ability to tarpit and kill them. Don't get me wrong though - I really do agree that a lot of people overestimate what Wyches are or are not capable of doing in assault - but they are pretty darn decent at tarpitting up stuff and winning via a war of attrition.

**Clthomps**

You are forgetting the re-roll with the poison 4+. Since her Str equals his T.

With that factored in I think it might be the better option.

**Thor665**

How do you argue that an Agoniser is poisoned? Not even INAT (which actually does us the favor of saying scissorhands and poisoned blades are poisoned) calls them poisoned weapons. They don't meet the part of the rule under poisoned weapons as regards vehicles and are thus their own separate thing (at least that's how I've always played it and seen it ruled)

**Clthomps**

It must just be a common ruling around here, since the DE codex came out way before USR did.

I would imagine in Peppers gaming scene its poison too since they seem like a more liberal gaming club.

**Thor665**

Fair enough - for the sake of completeness (since Grimaldi apparently also comes from a no poison Agoniser area) here's how the numbers look for a +1 Str Agoniser vs. TH/SS Termies;

2 hit = 1.5 wound = .5 wounds after saves.

To consolidate the info -

5 Wyches and Agoniser Succubus assaulting 5 TH/SS Termies; wrote:
+1 Str
Succubus = .333
Wyches = .54
.87 Dead Termies
1.6 dead Wyches

+1 Str (Agoniser counts as poisoned)
Succubus = .5
Wyches = .54
1.04 Dead Termies
1.6 dead Wyches

+1 Attacks
Succubus = .416
Wyches = .55
.966 Dead Termies
1.6 dead Wyches

re-roll misses
Succubus = .5
Wyches = .597
1.097 Dead Termies
1.6 dead Wyches

+1 WS
Succubus = .444
Wyches = .555
.999 Dead Termies
1.11 dead Wyches

All of the above doesn't account for the Wyches' shooting mostly because I'm too lazy to go and rework the numbers.

Looks like overall +1 WS might be the best one if what you're hoping for is to tie the combat, and the re-roll still beats out the +1 Str with Agoniser counted as a poisoned weapon though it's certainly by a degree of percentage that makes it a bit of a wash I'll admit. If the Agoniser isn't counted as a poisoned weapon my earlier statements hold true.

**Grimaldi**

If agonizers got the the reroll for poison, I think I'd take them over punishers every time. Technically, though, they aren't a poisoned weapon, but if your group allows it, I'd say go with it!

**Thor665**

Grimaldi wrote:If agonizers got the the reroll for poison, I think I'd take them over punishers every time.

I agree with this - I'm pretty sure re-rolling wound Agonisers would equate to being superior to Punishers in pretty much every scenario out there. A little cheaper too.

**asugradinwa**

Maybe I need to make sacrifices to my dice. I had 20 dark lances in my list and it literally took me 30 shots to bring down 1 vendetta in one game at the Conquest GT last weekend. Then in my final game 1 rhino survived over 20 dark lance shots, including 6 or 7 on the rear armor.

**Dashofpepper**

At the tournament this past weekend, I fought space wolves round two. The Space Wolf Dreadnought (Bjorn?) was one of my first targets - I sent my RJBs to go kill him. Five rounds of shooting from two blasters and three dark lances continually shook and stunned him, killed one weapon and on turn5 immobilized him, but I couldn't kill him.

Then again, during a different game, my first dark lance into a land raider exploded it. *laughing*