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Iboshi2 wrote:I played a game today, where I used 'super' termigaunts. I found that they are obscenely effective. I charged a unit of Khorne Bezerkers with a small squad, killed a number of them, then took minimal casualties due to FnP. The tervigon then spawned another group that assaulted into the gaps left by the bezerker kills, and it was perfect.

I would not equip genestealers with anything but the Broodlord. Infiltrate is all they need.

*snip. Pointless rant to a lost question* They can infiltrate without the broodlord now. Its a base special rule for stealers & the broodlord is a wargear upgrade, essentially.

Razerous wrote:

Iboshi2 wrote:I played a game today, where I used 'super' termigaunts. I found that they are obscenely effective. I charged a unit of Khorne Bezerkers with a small squad, killed a number of them, then took minimal casualties due to FnP. The tervigon then spawned another group that assaulted into the gaps left by the bezerker kills, and it was perfect.

I would not equip genestealers with anything but the Broodlord. Infiltrate is all they need.

*snip. Pointless rant to a lost question* They can infiltrate without the broodlord now. Its a base special rule for stealers & the broodlord is a wargear upgrade, essentially.

I'm aware of this. I should have said that I don't upgrade them with anything, and the best option is the broodlord. Thanks for doing a reading comprehension check for the 'Nid 'dex though.

@Nurglitch- I like these calculations. Keep them coming!

Let's take a unit of eight Assault Terminators with Thunder Hammers and Storm Shields.

The Termagants get:

60 Attacks, 45 hits, 34 wounds, 28 saves, six dead Terminators.

The two remaining Terminators get 4 attacks, 3 hits, 3 wounds, two dead Termagants.

The Assault Terminators lose by 4, either getting caught in a Sweeping Advance, in which case one is likely to fail his armour save, or running away, from Termagants. The remaining Terminators face:

28 Termagants, 28 attacks, 21 hits, 16 wounds, 13 saves, 3 more dead Terminators, except there was only two left.

In a single game Turn, assuming that the Termagants went first, they have wiped out an 8 man Assault Terminator squad having sustained an average of two casualties themselves.

If the Terminators assault the Termagants then we see:

Assuming Counter-Assault, Preferred Enemy, Poison

60 attacks, 45 hits, 25 wounds, 21 saves, four dead Terminators.

Four Terminators attack back, 12 attacks, 8 hits, 7 wounds.

The Termagants lose by 3, suffer 3 more wounds.

Next assault phase, 24 Termagants have 24 attacks, 18 hits, 6 wounds, 1 dead Terminator.

3 Terminators with 6 attacks, 4 hits, 3 wounds, 3 dead Termagants.

Termagants lose by 2, lose 2 more Termagants.

So 19 Termagants vs 3 Terminators

19 attacks, 14 hits, 8 wounds, 7 saves, 1 dead Terminator.

4 attacks, 3 hits, 3 wounds, 3 dead Termagants.

Termagants lose by 2, are reduced to 14. Etc.

The Land Raider delivery vehicle and Tervigon synergy unit cancel each other out, but that's still 320 points of Terminators vs 150 points of Termagants.

Against Tyranids I would surmise that regular Terminators would be better: Same effect of Powerfist as Thunder Hammer, same save as having a Storm Shield, and guns to shoot as you close or evade.

Last night I had Hormoguants suicide feed on a devilfish with flechette I kept it still, and just let them glance it for two turns as they died in droves.

Lets not get carried away.

Gants are T3. Anything with Str 6 will ignore their FNP.

They're still going to die in droves to most blast weapons.

Kroot Loops wrote:
Gants are T3. Anything with Str 6 will ignore their FNP.

They're still going to die in droves to most blast weapons.

Not as much as you'd think.
Most anti-infantry blasts are S4 (frags) or S5 (whirlwinds). Heavy Bolters and Bolters suffer the same issue, that FnP save is actually fairly powerful, especially if they're covered with a 5+ cover save from Venomthrope.

What it means is that to be safe, you have to hit them with BattleCannons and Demolishers, which will kill alot but then you aren't firing on the Warriors or MCs.

Even template weapons will suffer. Flamers go from killing 2 outta 3 Gaunts it touch to 1 outta 3.
Multi-Lasers, Scatter Lasers and Shuriken Cannons will all be great choices since they're base S6.

But those shots aren't going into your T6 bugs at least.

boomguns
killkannons
grotzooka
demolisher cannons
plasma cannons
battle cannons
Railgun submunition round
hellfire flamers
too much IG stuff to think about..
etc etc etc

The thing with Tyranids is that with no tanks these kind of anti-armor/heavy infantry blasts get regulated to clean up.

In the, what appears to be, emerging popular list of tervigon farms, the tervigons and their gants is going to be the primary threat of the army in most cases. This will just cause the anti-armor in the all comers list to focus on sweeping the gants away quickly, and using the hard hitting CC units (like that TH/SS termi group) to take on the MC. A small group of warriors can just be out-manuvered until the gants are all dead and the tervigons are dead/sterile, then they can be pounded with the blast templates.

That's my theory anyway.

Venomthropes, hive tyrants, tervigons, most of the nid book could be equal levels of brutal with 400+ points of supporting models. How bout some FnP preferred enemy rippers? All of this also assumes you have all of the buffs therefore your opponent has somehow failed to notice gaunts are trash without the ridiculous array of supporting models. Alternatively counting on psychic powers for your real resilience is kind of a problem when a SW player just shuts it down on a 4+ (3+ for Njal) or a psychic hood could just fight you for it every time (or are you also supporting them with the 140 pt death leaper as well, wohooo 1/4 of your points to support a troops choice, is this a nob biker list or something?). This means by the time you fight the enemy you have no garauntee of any bonus especially if your opponent is packing a fair number of Lascannons.

It's cute to kill things with 5 pt models, don't get me wrong, but dumping all of these points/slots to do it just doesn't seem efficient on any level. Also the tervigon seems like the crux of this entire affair. Killing it shuts down most of the buffs. Seems like wishful thinking to fool yourself into believing your opponent will take more than 1 game to realize that if he guns down this 1 model the gaunts become slightly fiercer guardsmen.

Mastershake wrote:Venomthropes, hive tyrants, tervigons, most of the nid book could be equal levels of brutal with 400+ points of supporting models. How bout some FnP preferred enemy rippers? All of this also assumes you have all of the buffs therefore your opponent has somehow failed to notice gaunts are trash without the ridiculous array of supporting models.

Killing with 5pt models is cute; But the remaining 1-2 tervigons, venomthrope & Hive tyrants arent just there for support.

Ideally, the Hive tyrant gets a cover-save from the tervigons, along with his 2+ save (to save yourself hassel from AP3 weapons) which should keep him alive for quite along while. The tervigons will either FNP each other if there are alot of anti-big-bug weapons (ABB) or they will FNP the gants if there are lots of (you guessed it!) anti-little-bug weapons. Everything gets some form of cover-save, 4-5+ and any shots directed at the extremely well hidden venomthropes arent being used to take down the much more expensive MC's.

In combat.. 4 attacks on the charge, str7 I2 with re-rolls to hit. Pretty potent stuff!

Everything gets some form of cover-save, 4-5+ and any shots directed at the extremely well hidden venomthropes arent being used to take down the much more expensive MC's.

"Shas'O, our Pathfinders have painted the gas exuding creatures with marker lights"

"Copy. Broadside team 1, coordinate fire on the pathfinder's target"

Ah. Markerlights, always good for a giggle. The Tau will probably still fall to the chitinous wave, but you've got to hand it to them for their ability to wreck strategic plans in the first turn.

Kroot Loops wrote:

Everything gets some form of cover-save, 4-5+ and any shots directed at the extremely well hidden venomthropes arent being used to take down the much more expensive MC's.

"Shas'O, our Pathfinders have painted the gas exuding creatures with marker lights"

"Copy. Broadside team 1, coordinate fire on the pathfinder's target"

Ah. Markerlights, always good for a giggle. The Tau will probably still fall to the chitinous wave, but you've got to hand it to them for their ability to wreck strategic plans in the first turn.

Hive mind; "See tau over there, eat them."

The chitinous wave; "Nom nom nom nom nom"

But yeah, cover-save denying weapons are a dangerous thing. A flamer vet chimera team will squad wipe all but the biggest gant squads from the board.

Razerous wrote:Killing with 5pt models is cute; But the remaining 1-2 tervigons, venomthrope & Hive tyrants arent just there for support.

Ideally, the Hive tyrant gets a cover-save from the tervigons, along with his 2+ save (to save yourself hassel from AP3 weapons) which should keep him alive for quite along while. The tervigons will either FNP each other if there are alot of anti-big-bug weapons (ABB) or they will FNP the gants if there are lots of (you guessed it!) anti-little-bug weapons. Everything gets some form of cover-save, 4-5+ and any shots directed at the extremely well hidden venomthropes arent being used to take down the much more expensive MC's.

In combat.. 4 attacks on the charge, str7 I2 with re-rolls to hit. Pretty potent stuff!

The tervigons and venomthropes are there for support. 4 attacks on the charge against any fighty unit just won't cut it. You'll break even with their PF attacks and they have more models. And yes you're right you can desperately shuffle the pscyhic powers and cover saves if push comes to shove, but aside from the tyrant nothing else in this combo wants to be in the same zip code as a fierce melee unit. Even then, the tryant can be pretty hit or miss.

Also, yeah you got it, any shots taken at the T4 models with only a cover save between them and oblivion aren't going at the monstrous creatures THAT turn, but on turn 2 the tervigon will be sucking and the gaunts are still a good distance from a charge. There are so many preconditions to this going off properly. It's cute when it does, but any opponent should be able to deal with it inside of 2 games.

Here's one for you that just came up in YMTC. Alpha Warriors joined to a unit of Termagaunts that's in the 6" range of a Tervigon. The rule states the Unit get the benefit, and the Alpha is a member of the Unit at that point.

Mastershake wrote: The tervigons and venomthropes are there for support. 4 attacks on the charge against any fighty unit just won't cut it. You'll break even with their PF attacks and they have more models. And yes you're right you can desperately shuffle the pscyhic powers and cover saves if push comes to shove, but aside from the tyrant nothing else in this combo wants to be in the same zip code as a fierce melee unit. Even then, the tryant can be pretty hit or miss.

If the Tervigon is still alive... any fighty unit doesn't want to tangle with a mob of the super gaunts. If the Tervigon is dead, the gaunts are admittedly less super (aka fodder) but still have to be killed. Hopefully, while your opponent was focusing on the Tervigon, you were also killing his stuff with your other units. I think the Tervigon/super gaunt wad is basically be a new IG blob.... they have to be dealt with by your opponent, but they also have to be supported by the rest of the army as they won't win the game on their own.

Gornall wrote:

Mastershake wrote: The tervigons and venomthropes are there for support. 4 attacks on the charge against any fighty unit just won't cut it. You'll break even with their PF attacks and they have more models. And yes you're right you can desperately shuffle the pscyhic powers and cover saves if push comes to shove, but aside from the tyrant nothing else in this combo wants to be in the same zip code as a fierce melee unit. Even then, the tryant can be pretty hit or miss.

If the Tervigon is still alive... any fighty unit doesn't want to tangle with a mob of the super gaunts. If the Tervigon is dead, the gaunts are admittedly less super (aka fodder) but still have to be killed. Hopefully, while your opponent was focusing on the Tervigon, you were also killing his stuff with your other units. I think the Tervigon/super gaunt wad is basically be a new IG blob.... they have to be dealt with by your opponent, but they also have to be supported by the rest of the army as they won't win the game on their own.

I tend to disagree, they can't establish a position in cover and shoot high powered death across the board, or advance behind an armored wall. That they will typically have to advance, and are used as screening units, would at least seem to put them in an inherently more vulnerable position.

Kroot Loops wrote:I tend to disagree, they can't establish a position in cover and shoot high powered death across the board, or advance behind an armored wall. That they will typically have to advance, and are used as screening units, would at least seem to put them in an inherently more vulnerable position.

Right... they are not a firepower unit. They are a screening/area-denial blob to help push across the board to take objectives.

Which has intrinsic value in and of itself. The fact that they can also be roided up into a super death squad is just icing on the very cheap cake.

In close combat, a tervigon (any T6 W6 MC) will just not die to anything other than a massed P.fist squad. All these hidden fists will shave wounds off a tervigon with ease.. but he has 6. Six. All the while, if the formation which supplies the Super Gants with their Oompf is intact, the similarly buffed tervigon will be making mince meat of everything bar assault termies (or warlocks).

Which is why you use str 6+ blasts against the gaunt swarms, send the 29 boyz&PK into the tyrant (Or even better, a couple units of trukk boyz), and the nobz squad into the tervigon. if you have him, Thraka by himself should be able to drop a tervigon in two assault phases, especially on the waaagh.

No plan ever works perfectly, but I'm not sure super gants are the be all, end all thing. Considering how tight you have to keep the bulk of your army clustered to have everything within buff range, it could play against you. Marching that blob across the field while getting hammered by some basilisks could make scatter virtually negligible.

What blob? Nid armies aren't nearly model dense enough that they're forced to mass up like Orks are. Unless you're just spewing out the Gant farms and making concentric rings within 6" of the Tervigon you can easily stretch out a line to 2" coherency.

You only really need the largest brood of termagants to maintain the front-forward position with a gant or two snaking back to keep within buff range.

I can imagine as a tervigon spawns termagant squads they will spawn/position off to the sides and play catch up & reinforce/get in the way of what ever is going on.

Str6 blast that ignores cover.. Colossus? Firestorm cannon. Anything else.. those massed 5pt model gants should get a (slightly puny) 5+ cover from those type of str6 blast whilst templates & anti-cover stuff wouldn't (hopefully) prevent FNP.. If of course you give (or can with hoods/rods etc) the gants FNP.

Ahh thats why I love the idea of using a squad of outflanking hormagaunts (via the Tyrants commander ability) with probably just adrenals (with an emphasis on anti-tank although it depends how much more killy the squad gets @ +25% pts/model with toxin sacs) .. But anyway, their crazy 3d6 pick highest run, fleet and charge should net them a fairly chunky range.. and otherwise do the whole thing of forcing deployment closer to the centre field which makes it easier for your army to reach (or they risk outflanking glancing hormagaunts). For about 120pts you should get about 4 glances, which ain't bad! Along with spods or flyrant/lictor/Ymgrals/Mawlock or trygon you can get some very dyanmic board control on the go. . . Kinda get to ignore the idea of a DZ, as tyranids should IMhO, its a nice flavour (and damned elite-heavy dex ).

to get these lists of 2-3 tervigon farms to have all their gant units within 6" of a tervigon and 12" of a tyrant (And Optionally 6" of a venomthrope), and all spawned gants must be placed so that all of the spawned models start within 6" of the spawning Tervigon? That's going to cause some blobbing.

More of an aside, but what happens if a really stretched out gant squads react to assault moves pulls all of their models more than 6" from the tervigon?

I don't think you should spawn unless absolutely needed... to cut down on blobbing. That and I think more than 2 Tervigons may be overkill, but that's just me.

Kroot Loops wrote:to get these lists of 2-3 tervigon farms to have all their gant units within 6" of a tervigon and 12" of a tyrant (And Optionally 6" of a venomthrope), and all spawned gants must be placed so that all of the spawned models start within 6" of the spawning Tervigon? That's going to cause some blobbing.

More of an aside, but what happens if a really stretched out gant squads react to assault moves pulls all of their models more than 6" from the tervigon?

I would say if they have the USR at the start of the assault phase, they have it for that assault phase. If they are then required to make a test & are not within 6", sure.. they would test on LD6. Although arguing it the other way, the assault phase does have sequential steps and you do make your attack rolls after you have made your assault move etc etc.

You do-not need all gants to be within 6" of a tervigon. Most units will want to slow down enemy units to allow for a charge. Quite a few will just be redundant extra models until a gap opens up for them to take formation. Not all the gants will indeed be getting a cover-save via the zoanthrope.

I dont see fielding more than 2 (as troop choices and no HQ's) tervigons to be effective & that will yield you 20-60 termagants. You will then get (10.5 on 3d6) 11 gants per spawn with somthing like a 40% chance to roll a double. So each tervigon should yield you roughly 25 gaunts over the course of a game. So in total you will have placed up to 45-85 termagants. How many models does a hordey ork player field? 90 boyz? Another 9 cans? IG field anywhere from 21 (minimum) easily over 100+ models, tanks not included. And so on.. 45-85 doesn't seem to be particularly extreme.

It will be interesting to see how it plays out in the tournaments this year. I'm not convinced on paper, but time will definitely tell how effective it turns out.

Kroot Loops wrote:to get these lists of 2-3 tervigon farms to have all their gant units within 6" of a tervigon and 12" of a tyrant (And Optionally 6" of a venomthrope), and all spawned gants must be placed so that all of the spawned models start within 6" of the spawning Tervigon? That's going to cause some blobbing.

More of an aside, but what happens if a really stretched out gant squads react to assault moves pulls all of their models more than 6" from the tervigon?

If the Tervigons are spewing out Gants whenever possible then they're being played incorrectly. They each have a 40% chance to run out of juice with each use, so they need to be conserved for crucial moments. It really isn't had to get a few huge units of Gants in Termagant/Tyrant buff range and still have them spread out nicely. Only 1 model from a unit has to be in range for the whole unit to get the bonuses.