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I rather like the Harpy and plan on having a flying circus themed list with two of them flying with a winged tyrant behind a huge mob of toxic gargoyles. The two is really just for unit saturation so if one goes down from shooting on the way (likely) the other has a chance to fulfill his role, which is halving that I value on some high-profile, expensive or dangerous cc units so the Tyrant can Paroxysm them for WS 1 as well, so the re-rolling, old-school style rending gargoyles can wreck house in supreme style. All about unit synergy. There are very few units that just "pop out" as stand alone great like in the previous codex, but when you start mixing up units to support each other it starts getting nasty.

I'll of course have to playtest it and it might be that with that many flying MC coming at the flank they won't be ignored and it will all go to flames, but we'll see.

The thing that jumps out about Harpies to me, is their ability to kill tanks in CC. Any TMC is a threat to do this, but a guy with Wings is a major problem. They just seem a bit overcosted, but if you can get one within 18" of a tank, it's going to kill it.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Harpy and Pyrovore bundle into an Orky horde. All the Orks now strike at I1, and several of them will be attacking the Pyrovore (as he engaged first, forcing them to 'pagga in' on his base) with a mere handful striking at the Harpy. Powerfists, Choppas, Uge Choppas, all striking the Pyrovore at the same time, which should equate to an awful lot of Acid Blood dodging tests on I1. And since wounds inflicted via Acid Blood count to combat, I am supremely confident of the Harpy walking away from that combat having won it extremely comfortably!

I don't understand, what does that mean?

The counter attack move.

A Pagga is a British term for a free-for-all fight, hence 'pagga in'.

The larger the base, the more models can squeeze in, thus the more attacks overall Mr Pyrovore is going to be facing.


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Phryxis wrote:The thing that jumps out about Harpies to me, is their ability to kill tanks in CC. Any TMC is a threat to do this, but a guy with Wings is a major problem. They just seem a bit overcosted, but if you can get one within 18" of a tank, it's going to kill it.

I'm not sure it is overcosted, as the only other flying thing with a similar threat level to Tanks is a winged Tyrant, which of course costs considerably more than just a basic Harpy. Sure he's not quite as durable, but then with it's movement, ideally it will only need to weather two turns of shooting at worst (if your opponent goes first) before he can go and jump something big, juicy and clanky. Job done, it's pulled it's weight points wise, dented your opponents chances of driving you off, AND given your opponent a more pressing threat to deal with whilst reducing his capacity to do so. Lovely! Well, in theory.


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Plus, going further with the Sonic Screech, I really don;t think I've extoled it's virtues enough! Fancy giving even a Dark Eldar Command Squad a damned good shooing with your basic bugs? Then stick a Harpy into the mix, halving their I, and thus making all but the most ridiculously nippy HTH opponent a much softer, squishier, oh-look-I-killed-you-before-you-even-swung affair. And remember, that drop lasts ALL combat phase, so should they break, chances are you will catch the fleeing unit.

So given the right targets, the Harpy is a nasty piece of kit which will enable you to get jobbing the enemy with relative impunity! And I would need to check my book, but if I am right in thinking, Lash Whips only affect models in Base Contact, whereas the Sonic Screech affects the entire enemy unit charged. Used wisely, you can serious lay some pain on enemy units!

I dont really play in tournies and such so I will prob be making and using one. Having it multi charge with another unit seems great. Seems more like a combat supporter then a stand out CC machine.

Plus I face guard a lot so dropping mines and a TL Stranglethorn cannon seems like a great loadout to me.

Dropping Spore Mines can be a laugh any ways (and one could argue that it then becomes two Fast Attack slots in one. Factor out the cost of it's maximum payload of 3 Spore Mines, and adjust the cost mentally) as I'm yet to meet a player who will stroll his model nochalantly through terrain with a minefield! Whilst it might not kill a great deal with these, they do make life harder for your opponent, especially if the start drifting willy nilly all over his lines.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:The counter attack move.

A Pagga is a British term for a free-for-all fight, hence 'pagga in'.

The larger the base, the more models can squeeze in, thus the more attacks overall Mr Pyrovore is going to be facing.

I guess I don't understand why he would get piled on but the harpy wouldn't?

Because you charge in the Pyrovore first, locking the opposing unit in combat. Then the Harpy second, after he has been forced to react to the Pyrovore, allowing the Harpy to pick and choose a nice location where few(er) attacks will come it's way.

Arse Badgers! Just check my rulebook, and pagga in moves aren't performed until all charges have been resolved. Never mind, just means the Harpy might get a few more people swinging in it's direction. Though it does say if you can make BTB, you must make BTB, so that gives us some leeway. Just need to get your positioning on the assault down to a tee, leaving the majority of the enemy unit closer to the Pyrovore than the Harpy, forcing them into BTB (and thus only able to attack) against the Pyrovore.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Because you charge in the Pyrovore first, locking the opposing unit in combat. Then the Harpy second, after he has been forced to react to the Pyrovore, allowing the Harpy to pick and choose a nice location where few(er) attacks will come it's way.

Arse Badgers! Just check my rulebook, and pagga in moves aren't performed until all charges have been resolved. Never mind, just means the Harpy might get a few more people swinging in it's direction. Though it does say if you can make BTB, you must make BTB, so that gives us some leeway. Just need to get your positioning on the assault down to a tee, leaving the majority of the enemy unit closer to the Pyrovore than the Harpy, forcing them into BTB (and thus only able to attack) against the Pyrovore.

Right, that's where I wasn't following you. Defenders only react after all of the assault moves are made, so you can't really force them to react into one particular model. However, you could purposefully assault a powerfist/thunder hammer/whatever with one unit then charge the Harpy in the side, thus saving him any power fist attacks.

2 attacks is pretty pathetic. If the harpy, which has close combat special rules thus must paritally be designed for close combat, had a good close combat profile, then I would be all for it. Heck, it doesnt even have 2 scything talons!

I had a dream once, about running a dragon nid army with 2 tyrant big high elf style dragons and 3 harpy empire little dragons, but the harpy is SO bad and tyrant wings SO expensive my idea is doomed to failure. I blame the chaos marine codex, with their cheap wings on daemon princes, that put the fear of inexpensive wings make the dev team overcost them (they dont even learn from their own examples--they had to make assault marines MUCH cheaper because no one took them, yet they make wings more expenisve at the same time!)

Dude....have you been following the thread at all?

It's a support critter. Halves enemy I values on the chage, can poop Spore Mines to either decimate or deny, plus is capable of getting places quickly. Add all that together with units to exploit it's strengths, and it's well worth it's points.

It really seems to be the most viable platform for the heavy venom cannon too. It's twin-linked, so you're pretty likely to get a direct hit (about 56%), and it's easy to set up for side armour shots thanks to the Harpy's speed.

I think I'd still be tempted by the Stranglethorns. The speed should aid in squeezing of unhindered shots at units in the open, with the added bonus of a possible pin.

I have been following the thread. The harpy assisting another unit in assault is a good idea, I admit. However, the harpy still sucks.

Consider what it's support value actually is. It halves the enemy initiative. Now, while that might be cool, there is no unit that greatly benefits from this.

First, nids charging into cover, with a very few exceptions, will strike at init 1. Therefore, any time the nids charge into cover, they are striking last, harpy assitance or not. Now if the harpy granted half init to enemies within 6 inches and assault grenades to friendlies in 6 inches, it would be useful.

Second, outside of cover, any assault unit that would strike before the enemy would be at a minimum init of 4 already, 5 with furious charge. Thus, you would strike before non pfist marines, eldar, and other tyranid creatures. With the charge init bonus from furious charge, you would already strike before marines and other tyranids, so then only against eldar will the harpy be useful. And against howling banshees, this effect does nothing anyway. So, honestly, is there an eldar unit that even exists that can only be beaten in cc by nids with the addition of a 160 point monster? I dont think so!~

Thus, the harpy's synergy is demonstrated as very situational. Whats more, does anyone believe for a second that 20 fully upgraded gargoyles are not, in every way, better than a harpy in close combat?

At the end of the day, the ONLY useful thing the harpy can do when compared to other fast attack choices is bring a twin linked heavy venom cannon. However, as many already know, heavy venom cannons are terrible horrible no good very bad weapons for what you are forced to pay for them. If you want wings, take gargoyles. If you want speedy close combat for vehicles, take rending raveners/shrikes. If you want a cool converted showcase model that wont see competitive tourney play, take a harpy.

Not sold at all on the Harpy. I like the concept and just about everything that it does... just not the price. And that a single volley from a Rifleman Dread has decent odds of killing it outright.

Then I flip over to the SW book and see the price of equivalent wounds in Wolf Cav, and their armor save, and shed a big tear for the flying unit that I'll never take.

DevianID wrote:I have been following the thread. The harpy assisting another unit in assault is a good idea, I admit. However, the harpy still sucks.

Consider what it's support value actually is. It halves the enemy initiative. Now, while that might be cool, there is no unit that greatly benefits from this.

First, nids charging into cover, with a very few exceptions, will strike at init 1. Therefore, any time the nids charge into cover, they are striking last, harpy assitance or not. Now if the harpy granted half init to enemies within 6 inches and assault grenades to friendlies in 6 inches, it would be useful.

Second, outside of cover, any assault unit that would strike before the enemy would be at a minimum init of 4 already, 5 with furious charge. Thus, you would strike before non pfist marines, eldar, and other tyranid creatures. With the charge init bonus from furious charge, you would already strike before marines and other tyranids, so then only against eldar will the harpy be useful. And against howling banshees, this effect does nothing anyway. So, honestly, is there an eldar unit that even exists that can only be beaten in cc by nids with the addition of a 160 point monster? I dont think so!~

Thus, the harpy's synergy is demonstrated as very situational. Whats more, does anyone believe for a second that 20 fully upgraded gargoyles are not, in every way, better than a harpy in close combat?

At the end of the day, the ONLY useful thing the harpy can do when compared to other fast attack choices is bring a twin linked heavy venom cannon. However, as many already know, heavy venom cannons are terrible horrible no good very bad weapons for what you are forced to pay for them. If you want wings, take gargoyles. If you want speedy close combat for vehicles, take rending raveners/shrikes. If you want a cool converted showcase model that wont see competitive tourney play, take a harpy.

Consider it this way. Arm it with a stranglethorn cannon and you can absolutely decimate any non MEQ infantry squad. It can support with sonic screech if needed. Its main goal is not a tank killer, not a CC monster, but an objective sniper/heavy weapon team destroying beast. It does this in spades. Screen it with gargs and you have a mobile force that can pretty much decimate any non MEQ unit. Plus if your lucky you can pin. Sure on its own, like most things in the nid dex, its bad. But combine it with other things and it becomes good. I would never use a Harpy to tank hunt, or fight termies or whatever. Im a firm believer that it is best suited to contest objectives, and be another hard target for your enemy to fire at. Got a pesky dev or havoc squad in the back? Harpy takes care of that. Got a few heavy weapon teams in the back? Harpy takes care of that. Got a IG/Guardian/Gaunt/Ork squad sitting in the back on an objecttive? Harpy takes care of that. Use it for what its made for. Dont compare it to things that arnt in its role.

It is a nippy beasty, capable of chinning small squards, whilst simaltaneously (pooping Spore Mines) contesting/clearing enemy held objectives. This done, and ideally after it's knacked an enemy Tank, you switch to it's secondary role of swinging combats your way. Gentlemen, open your Codex and check the rules.

Sonic Screech halves enemy Initiative for the entire combat phase. This means once you have blatantly overwhelmed the enemy in HTH (what do you mean you sent it in alone? Amateur!) you are more than likely going to catch the enemy unit, which unless you are playing against Marines, means you have just wiped it out.

Gargoyles are great and all, being dirty filthy cheap, but there is still room for a Harpy.

I see the benefits I pointed being called situational, and so they are. But guess what. They are situations you, as the player, should be more than capable of engineering. If you aren't, good luck in your precious tournament, as you WILL meet people better at the game as you, and when you do, don't you dare blame your Codex, or I shall point and laugh and call you a NooB, because I don't do Tournaments, and even I can see the potency the Harpy adds.

As for Initiatives. Stick it into a combat where your Bugs are I4, and the enemy has to be I10 to go first. Bit of a boost? I THINK SO!

sweeping advance is always tested on unmodifed init. Thus no, the screech WONT help you catch the enemy unit.

Also, the initiave value. Name a unit that is init 5 or higher that the screech is instrumental in assisting the nids win. There isnt one! Init 5 eldar die in droves to nid CC, init 6 stealers/halriquins die in droves to hordy nid CC, init 10 howling banshees are always init 10, so screech does nothing, and they STILL die to nid cc. Also, as stated, smart opponents will be in cover, regardless of what you have. Thus, halving init for an assisting unit that has to go through cover means you still strike last.

Also, "I would never use a Harpy to tank hunt, or fight termies or whatever" Exactly my point, you would never use a harpy for whatever you need done. You would use something else, and the harpy would just assist something else that can already do the job on its own.

"Got a pesky dev or havoc squad in the back? Harpy takes care of that. Got a few heavy weapon teams in the back? Harpy takes care of that. Got a IG/Guardian/Gaunt/Ork squad sitting in the back on an objecttive? Harpy takes care of that. Use it for what its made for."

The harpy doesnt take care of ANY of those things, LOL. Forgetting that it takes 3 turns to get there, and forgetting that the harpy deals a MAXIMUM of 3 wounds to such squads, by the time you actually get to said shooting unit it has shot at least 2 times already. You MAY win combat against small guard squads, but against equal points of other units, the harpy has worse shooting and worse cc at the same time!

I hate to be the bearer of bad news guys, but the harpy doesnt cut it. For fun or themed games, go for it. However, if you are discussing the competitive merit of the harpy, logic and math dictates that the harpy is a poor choice.

You are correct about the I value being static for pursuit. Rather rusty at 40k just now..but....

You are saying that reducing mincer units like Harlequins etc to half their Initiative is worthless, because you'd eventually kill them?

Perhaps. But I'd far rather kill them before they even get a chance to slap my Bugs around. Less enemy , more bugs. Surely that is a good combination? And you are only giving any consideration to it's HTH performance, when it comes with several ways of dealing with enemy squads at range. What of them?

The Harpy seems to be quite the Jack Of All Trades. Doesn't particularly excel in any realm but is certainly capable of offering comptent support in pretty much all, depending on which load out you give it. I reckon I'll always upgrade it to the big Spine Cluster thingy, as that combined with Stranglethorn Cannons ought to make a decent mess out of most enemy units, even when in cover. If my opponent is keen on using Dreadnoughts etc, then I'd consider the Twinlinked Venom Cannon, as it is harder to hide the Dreadnoughts, and all I really need to achieve is an Immobilised Result, or to blow a weapon off before it really loses it's punch.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:The Harpy seems to be quite the Jack Of All Trades. Doesn't particularly excel in any realm but is certainly capable of offering comptent support in pretty much all, depending on which load out you give it. I reckon I'll always upgrade it to the big Spine Cluster thingy, as that combined with Stranglethorn Cannons ought to make a decent mess out of most enemy units, even when in cover. If my opponent is keen on using Dreadnoughts etc, then I'd consider the Twinlinked Venom Cannon, as it is harder to hide the Dreadnoughts, and all I really need to achieve is an Immobilised Result, or to blow a weapon off before it really loses it's punch.

I wouldn't bother with the TL-Venom Cannon. It is still a Monsterous Creature, so rolls 2D6 on its considerable S6, making ~76% of your pen rolls penetrate AV12. If you're really feeling spunky, you can grab Furious Charge, but I don't think it is necessary.

Leave its shooting for dealing with infantry (which it will demolish), and let its natural attributes carry it through vehicles.

It seems ok. It also looks like the cheapest heavy venom cannon in the army (plus its twin-linked.) It is a mobile twin-linked lascannon in a open slot (FA). That seems pretty decent if screened.

DarkHound wrote:I wouldn't bother with the TL-Venom Cannon. It is still a Monsterous Creature, so rolls 2D6 on its considerable S6, making ~76% of your pen rolls penetrate AV12. If you're really feeling spunky, you can grab Furious Charge, but I don't think it is necessary.

Leave its shooting for dealing with infantry (which it will demolish), and let its natural attributes carry it through vehicles.

Meh, if it's going to be assaulting vehicles, it would be nice to shoot them with something that can actually hurt them on the same turn. With only 2 attacks, the Harpy is not that deadly assaulting vehicles unless they didn't move (or get immobilized by the VC shot...).

I like twinlinked VC, Stinger Salvo, Adrenal Glands. There's already tons of stuff in the Tyranid list for killing infantry.

First off let me just say that I've been using my harpies extensively and while they took me a long time to learn how to use correctly, I will now probably never play without them.
Here are some of the reasons I decided to use them in the first place.

1. I used to run carnifex but there points cost was rediculous for what you got and they were too slow. They often (being one of the big units on the field) were shot at first and died. So I thought the harpy would make an ideal replacement as (disregarding the differences in melee) it could not only take a stranglethorn cannon that was twinlinked, but it was actually cheaper than a fex with one!

2. I mentioned that the carnies tended to die on the first turn, with harpies, you can (and I suggest it) put them in reserve. This way you can pop them in on turn 2 (hopefully with the +1 bonus from hive commander) at a significant range away and blast away with not only the 36" stranglethorns, but also the cluster spines (AMAZING anti-infantry), this also I found helps your stealers and gaunts live longer as you can stop reserve units of the enemy and units that aren't in combat from charging or shooting back with pinning.

3. Another reason I love them is because of their mobility. They move fast, and even if they do move they can still fire their cluster spines and stranglethorn cannons.

4. Regen is cheap on these guys! They may not be as durable as a carnifex, but using them in a reserved manner will probably keep them alive the entire game.

5. They also, in a pinch, have pretty decent capabilities against vehicles. After all they are 3 str less than a fex, but str 6 with 2d6 armor pen roll aint something to laugh at.

6. When you do make it to close combat range, I believe (because of the way the rule is written) that you can even drop your spore mines on units already in close combat (as it is not a shooting attack and it says ANY unit that you flew over).

Here are some things I would NEVER do with a harpy.

1. assault something that wasn't already in close combat (except vehicles of course)
2. put them anywhere near an enemy unit when they arrive, best to shoot first and melee later.
3. try to kill tanks with the guns. I would never bother putting heavy venom cannons on a harpy. Deepstriking zoanthropes do that far better, and the harpy imo are truly best at anti-infantry roles (especially if you manage to pin the target unit, or get just close enough for cluster spines)
4. melee something when there are still infantry to shoot. This kinda goes along with #3. Why bother putting a harpy in melee when they do so much better shooting at infantry? Let the stealers do their thing.

So yea... for those of you that say these guys are expensive...

shootyfex = 160 + 20 or 25 = 180 or 185
meleefex with drop pod = 160 +40 = 200 (and can't shoot/assault the turn it comes in)
mixed fex with drop pod and guns = 220 or 225! And with initiative 1 they like to get raped.

anti infantry harpy WITH regen = 160+15 = 175
Anti tank harpy with regen = 185

So versus a fex anyway, they sacrifice 3str,1t and a 4+ save vs 3+, for the ability to move 12", have a twinlinked gun as well as another short range gun(s5 ap4 assault 4 vs s5 large blast assault 1), the ability to regen wounds, and a cheaper cost, oh and nifty support abilities don't forget about those.

I dunno about you guys, but I seriously suggest that you actually try them before generating a yes or no opinion about them. But for me (and especially in unison with deepstriking troops or trygons) they are very worth it. Just keep in mind that they are for support, not to be rambo units.

So versus a fex anyway, they sacrifice 3str,1t and a 4+ save vs 3+, for the ability to move 12", have a twinlinked gun as well as another short range gun(s5 ap4 assault 4 vs s5 large blast assault 1), the ability to regen wounds, and a cheaper cost, oh and nifty support abilities don't forget about those.

Harpies are S5 not S6 so it is 4 points of strength. They also have T5 rather than T6 this makes a HUGE difference to survivability. It only takes 1 shot to kill the Harpy. Most Tau armies have at least 5 S10 guns normally 3 of which are twinlinked and all 72" range they will kill the harpy the turn after it DSs EVERY time because they can for such little firepower...

Carnifexes are so overpriced no-one goes for them so to say it is better value for something no-one takes is hardly compelling evidence to take a Harpy. I actually think they are best for the old Carnifex shake/stun the tank so it can blow me to hell and back job...

However I still think there are better options in the types of lists I go for. But the Harpy looks OK and not much more than that. Like most things in the new codex it has potential when used correctly in the right army.