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Made in us
Shas'la with Pulse Carbine





VoXX wrote:wow...

doom is not attacking the unit. If this help the way you think of the situation, imagine the enemy is attacking the doom by being within 6" and as a reaction it drains their life.

to summarize: doom not attacking, units in 6" bubble get life drained. simple.



"Wow", you are ignoring the fundamentals for how this rule is clearly intended to work in combination with Absorb Life.
"The Doom immediately gains a wound, <snip>, for every unsaved wound it inflicts."
Really? He's inflicting wounds with his ability Spirit Leech, and you're semantically saying this isn't an "attack"? How is he inflicting these wounds if his ability isn't a type of attack?

It is a Type of Attack. More over, if we are using our "imaginations", it's a type of PSYCHIC attack, since he's a Psyker.

p79 in BRB supports that units embarked in a transport and/or building may not be attacked.

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RAW – the Doom’s power does affect units within a transport.

With that said, I believe it will be FAQ’d that the power does NOT affect embarked units. The Doom is only 90 points and, considering everything he does, he needs a nerf badly. Also, by logic, drivers of vehicles are living things even though they aren’t represented as models on the table. It doesn’t make sense to me that the drivers of a Chimera are nice and safe while the guys in the cargo hold are dying of psychic onslaughts.

Until it’s FAQ’d I strongly believe he does hurt embarked units. When it is FAQ’d, if there’s any justice in this world, he will NOT affect embarked units.
   
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if the dooms ability can affect models through solid objects ie: opposite side of a wall, why would a tank hull stop it?

@paidinfull: doom not attacking its using a special ability. doom is a psyker but absorb life is NOT a psychic attack.

@incarna last time i checked yakface did the FAQ's and pg.1 of this thread has him saying it does affect units in vehicles...

If you read this i own your soul.

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VoXX wrote:@incarna last time i checked yakface did the FAQ's and pg.1 of this thread has him saying it does affect units in vehicles...


Is this an official FAQ in any capacity? I know GW was pawning the FAQ writing off to the Adepticon crew. Can you link it?
   
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incarna wrote:
VoXX wrote:@incarna last time i checked yakface did the FAQ's and pg.1 of this thread has him saying it does affect units in vehicles...
Is this an official FAQ in any capacity? I know GW was pawning the FAQ writing off to the Adepticon crew. Can you link it?
Well, read the GW FAQs. Most of them have a note saying that Yakface and crew wrote them.

Sadly though their official line now seems to be getting others to do the work for them but not crediting them.

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This was the argument presented to me.

Does a Psychic Hood affect units inside a transport casting psychic powers? Yes it does. Now, the wording for how these two abilities work is almost exactly the same.

So, if a psychic hood works this way, why not Doom?

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Because Doom hurts?

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VoXX wrote:if the dooms ability can affect models through solid objects ie: opposite side of a wall, why would a tank hull stop it?

@paidinfull: doom not attacking its using a special ability. doom is a psyker but absorb life is NOT a psychic attack.

@incarna last time i checked yakface did the FAQ's and pg.1 of this thread has him saying it does affect units in vehicles...


How are you able to simply ignore the logic that the ability is "inflicting" wounds? This is an action, a verb. The ability is doing something to something else that is causing harm. Last time I checked inflicting physical harm or causing bodily harm is part of what it defines an attack. You're also using real world logic vs game logic.

Game logic is those models were "removed from the table" so they aren't even there. You're using a Rule that says you measure to the hull of the vehicle to determine the range for if the unit is within the effect of the ability. Now, if this ability WEREN'T causing wounds, I'd agree that it's not a type of attack, but I have no idea how you are able to say that the Doom model by using the Spirit Leech ability to inflict wounds on an enemy unit is not attacking that unit with this ability. He is causing physical harm to the unit, that's an attack! By the Doom's actions he is causing harm, a means of attack.

Yakface also said in his INAT FAQ -
+RB.66E.02 –
Q: Can an embarked unit ever be forced to fall back or become pinned while in/on a vehicle (or building)?
A: Unless explicitly specified otherwise, no [clarification].

If the Spirit Leech ability works against embarked unit it breaks this written INAT ruling.
Why? Because Spirit Leech does not specifically state it causes fall back moves and in the BRB at the end of every phase if a unit suffered 25% it must take a morale check. Spirit Leech happens, the average roll is 10.5, against IG with LD8 GASP that's probably enough for a morale check, only we've broken the rule set. The BGB also as stated hundreds of times, does not cover any of this in the RAW or official FAQs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Arschbombe wrote:Because Doom hurts?

Exactly... it's a type of attack and you cannot attack units embarked in transports or buildings.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/01/29 19:48:42


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paidinfull wrote:
Yakface also said in his INAT FAQ -
+RB.66E.02 –
Q: Can an embarked unit ever be forced to fall back or become pinned while in/on a vehicle (or building)?
A: Unless explicitly specified otherwise, no [clarification].

If the Spirit Leech ability works against embarked unit it breaks this written INAT ruling.
Why? Because Spirit Leech does not specifically state it causes fall back moves and in the BRB at the end of every phase if a unit suffered 25% it must take a morale check. Spirit Leech happens, the average roll is 10.5, against IG with LD8 GASP that's probably enough for a morale check, only we've broken the rule set. The BGB also as stated hundreds of times, does not cover any of this in the RAW or official FAQs.
And as I have said, the INAT FAQ changes the rule. What the Rules say and what the INAT say are two different things. Just because Yakface says "ABC" does not change the fact that it is actually "RAW" (see what I did thar?).

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/01/29 19:50:19


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And as I have pointed out you need to read all the posts
@incarna last time i checked yakface did the FAQ's and pg.1 of this thread has him saying it does affect units in vehicles...

There is also NO RAW for fall back moves, etc. in this regards, its incomplete... do ya see?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2010/01/29 19:55:13


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Arschbombe wrote:Because Doom hurts?


I don't see why that would stop it. The knee jerk reaction is to cry faul and shout no as laud as you can, but I don't think that's the case this time. I'd be willing to let Doom work on guys inside a transport until they get a FAQ.

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Gwar! wrote:Well, read the GW FAQs. Most of them have a note saying that Yakface and crew wrote them.

Sadly though their official line now seems to be getting others to do the work for them but not crediting them.


Then I will make an appeal to Yakface if he is developing a FAQ for the new Tyranid codex.

Yakface, Please hear me!

I do NOT disagree that RAW indicates that the Doom’s power can affect embarked units. I do however believe that, despite the fact that I am currently building a Tyranid army and will undoubtedly use this unit in time, that the Doom should NOT be able to affect units within a transport for several reasons.

The power clearly states “non vehicle unit”. Why are the pilots of Chimera, Landraiders, Rhino’s and even Dreadnaughts immune to having their soul rent asunder by the psychic onslaught? Armor seems to provide some form of protection. If it didn’t, the rule should have a sub-text that accounts for how the living drivers of a vehicle are affected.

The Doom is comparable to a vehicle squad of IG artillery. Its vulnerability is compensated for by its ability to inflict damage in both you and your opponents turn. At 90 points, this is a potentially insane game mechanic – the ability to point to any heavy hitting unit on the table such as a demon prince to land raider-mounted terminator squad is far too powerful for the point investment. The ONLY reasonable protection possible is a transport.
   
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Aya wrote:I don't see why that would stop it. The knee jerk reaction is to cry faul and shout no as laud as you can, but I don't think that's the case this time. I'd be willing to let Doom work on guys inside a transport until they get a FAQ.


That's awesome. Really, it shows what a great sport and opponent you can be.

All of my points and arguments stem from a stand point of "we want the strict RAW sense"

@incarna
I think you've just summed it up the best. (except for the very first sentence, which I have argued against) Well said.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/01/29 20:19:41


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incarna wrote:Then I will make an appeal to Yakface if he is developing a FAQ for the new Tyranid codex.


To check this before it gets out of hand: Yakface didn't write the current FAQ's. Portions of the current FAQ's were taken from the INAT FAQ. Slight difference.

Essentially, GW have started checking fan-written FAQ's, and where an answer in that FAQ matches the way they want to rule, they're just using that answer rather than writing their own.

 
   
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insaniak wrote:
incarna wrote:Then I will make an appeal to Yakface if he is developing a FAQ for the new Tyranid codex.


To check this before it gets out of hand: Yakface didn't write the current FAQ's. Portions of the current FAQ's were taken from the INAT FAQ. Slight difference.

Essentially, GW have started checking fan-written FAQ's, and where an answer in that FAQ matches the way they want to rule, they're just using that answer rather than writing their own.
Without credit of course, because Big Bad GW have armies of Lawyers to protect them

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Will it really matter?

Say that GW does issue an FAQ that addresses Spirit Leech and that it indeed doesn't affect units in vehicles. Everyone is just going to say that GW isn't ruling per RAW. Everyone that supports it affecting units in vehicles will then say that faq's are not official with them just being house rules so do not have to be followed.
   
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Brother Ramses wrote:Will it really matter?... will then say that faq's are not official with them just being house rules so do not have to be followed.


And round and round we go. You have got to love good old GW...

EDIT: I pray for The Day when GW finally stops the current nonsense regarding Errata/FAQs and gets serious. Unfortunately it seems that perkele in his infernal domain will start shoveling snow before that happens.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/01/29 21:53:47


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Brother Ramses wrote:Say that GW does issue an FAQ that addresses Spirit Leech and that it indeed doesn't affect units in vehicles. Everyone is just going to say that GW isn't ruling per RAW. Everyone that supports it affecting units in vehicles will then say that faq's are not official with them just being house rules so do not have to be followed.


And the vast majority of players, who do accept the GW FAQ's, will play it as FAQ'd. Which is why in YMDC we count the FAQ's as official rulings.


 
   
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yakface wrote:
Regwon wrote:No.

If you are within 6" of a transport, you are within 6" of that vehicle, not the unit inside it. The rules allow you to measure effects from a unit inside a transport, provided there are firepoints or the ability doesnt require LOS. There is nothing in the rules that allows you to measure effects to a unit in a transport. All you, as the opponent, can do is measure effects to the transport itself, which is not effected by the doom of malan'tai's ability.



Please read page 66 of the rulebook (under 'Embarking'). Measurements involving the embarked unit are measured TO or from the vehicle's hull.


The ability in question is a special rule. It is not a psychic attack which requires line of sight.

Therefore, by the rules embarked units *are* affected by this ability. This is not twisting the rules, this is what the rules say.

Claiming that the ability wouldn't affect embarked units would be twisting the rules in this particular case (IMHO).



Yak, If you read the main rulebook FAQ's

Q. Can Psychic powers be used on a unit
embarked on a transport?

A. For simplicity’s sake, the answer has to be a
firm ‘No, unless the psyker himself is in the unit
being transported’.

I think the answer is shown to be no you cant affect friendly or enemy units in a transport. This seems pretty cut and dry to me. This would open up an entire can of worms that doesnt need to happen otherwise.

Do you really want Howling Cyclone to make units break in transports? The way you rule it would have to be a yes, it says all units within 18" must take a morale test or fall back. This isnt a psychic shooting attack so it would fall into the same group of powers.

Also, Chain Lightning would effect units in transports do you really want this?

On a side note, for those who say hey you dont get cover saves against Tervigon's coming out of the ground because it isnt a shooting attack then under those same context's no one will get any cover saves against Njal Stormcallers Lord of Tempests effects.

If for some reason FAQ's said that these are the cases on these two topics wow, Njal just became the most powerful man in 40k.
Broxus

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2010/01/29 22:00:26


 
   
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Yak, If you read the main rulebook FAQ's

Q. Can Psychic powers be used on a unit
embarked on a transport?

A. For simplicity’s sake, the answer has to be a
firm ‘No, unless the psyker himself is in the unit
being transported’.

I think the answer is shown to be no you cant affect friendly or enemy units in a transport. This seems pretty cut and dry to me. This would open up an entire can of worms that doesnt need to happen otherwise.

Do you really want Howling Cyclone to make units break in transports? The way you rule it would have to be a yes, it says all units within 18" must take a morale test or fall back. This isnt a ps

ALso, Chain lightning would effect units in transports do you really want this?

On a side note, for those who say hey you dont get cover saves against Tervigon's coming out of the ground because it isnt a shooting attack then under those same context's no one will get any cover saves against Njal Stormcallers Lort od Tempests effects.

Broxus


Fear the deep striking tervigon.

PS.

The doom's ability isn't a psychic power.
   
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Either are the Storm Callers Lord of Tempest effects.

I can see it now, put Njal in a LR move him foward and try to make all the enemy squads come running out of their transports from suffering 25% casulities from Chain lighting and even instant killing T4 guys. If that doesnt work just make them run out of the transports with Howling Cyclone.

Bah

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/01/29 22:06:46


 
   
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Gwar! wrote:Without credit of course, because Big Bad GW have armies of Lawyers to protect them


Gee Gwar, I see your not holding a grudge

{Not that I wouldn't be hacked off if someone used my material without permission}

Simple question though, how do they balance up the ability against non living units. Specifically gun drones? IE I know what the rules say, its a unit, it has toughness it takes wounds. But whats the fluff?

Andrew

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Probably work

paidinfull wrote:
VoXX wrote:wow...

doom is not attacking the unit. If this help the way you think of the situation, imagine the enemy is attacking the doom by being within 6" and as a reaction it drains their life.

to summarize: doom not attacking, units in 6" bubble get life drained. simple.



"Wow", you are ignoring the fundamentals for how this rule is clearly intended to work in combination with Absorb Life.
"The Doom immediately gains a wound, <snip>, for every unsaved wound it inflicts."
Really? He's inflicting wounds with his ability Spirit Leech, and you're semantically saying this isn't an "attack"? How is he inflicting these wounds if his ability isn't a type of attack?

It is a Type of Attack. More over, if we are using our "imaginations", it's a type of PSYCHIC attack, since he's a Psyker.

p79 in BRB supports that units embarked in a transport and/or building may not be attacked.


I think it's arrogant at best to presume how rules are "clearly intended" to work in combination with others. I think enough people are unsure of this one to show that it is clearly not as clear as you think.

Under the premise that "wound=attack" would you say that the ground is attacking units on a failed dangerous terrain check? Unless our Eldar player is taking me for a ride, I'm pretty sure you get an invul save against one. I'm also pretty sure invul saves can only be taken against wounds.

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AndrewC wrote:
Gwar! wrote:Without credit of course, because Big Bad GW have armies of Lawyers to protect them


Gee Gwar, I see your not holding a grudge

{Not that I wouldn't be hacked off if someone used my material without permission}

Simple question though, how do they balance up the ability against non living units. Specifically gun drones? IE I know what the rules say, its a unit, it has toughness it takes wounds. But whats the fluff?

Andrew


There is not a catagory of living or not living. It would would work on drones because it doesnt have an AV value and fall under the vehicle catagory. That is purely fluff only.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/01/29 22:19:04


 
   
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broxus wrote:
There is not catagory in living or not living. It would would work on drones because it doesnt have an AV value and fall under the vehicle catagory. That is purely fluff only.


Which is what I said. I just wondered if they had tried to justify it in some way.

Cheers

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Ugh did some one really drag this up again? IM just going to provide a link for how I see it as it sums it up quiet nicely. http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showpost.php?p=49370&postcount=65

I personally would not allow it to be a yes until we get the faq as we have no way of figuring out how the unit would be able to fall back or just be outright destroyed due to this power.

Damn double posts

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2010/01/29 22:29:01


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I called GW customer services and got answer to our question about Doom of Malan'tai.....believe or not i got three different answers everytime i called. Go figure, Gw cant even answer their own rules.....hahaha

First one .....I dont know....maybe or may not
Second one.......No
and Third.......I dont know

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/01/30 00:35:44


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This came up in a campaign that my LGS is holding the sunday after the release and me being a judge for the had to make a ruling. I was not comfortable making this without contacting GW and asking, since I had not read the codex until it was presented to me. Now, before anyone gives the old "you can call GW 5 times and get 5 different answers" line, we decided to call multiple times from different phones and the one with the most yes or no's was determined to be house rules until the FAQ were published. We called 10 times total from 5 different phones. Surprisingly, we got 10 "no's". So ruled that it did not effect units embarked in transports. I actually talked with the second customer service guy, John, and he stated that there was another ability that the nids had that did effect units in transports but it was specifically stated in the rules. The way John explained it was that the ability checked its bubble and if it touchs a vehicle then the ignores it "like a air tight seal", he went on to state that if a unit is embarked into a transport then the embarked unit is actually treated as vehicular unit, since the embarked unit has to follow the rules of the vehicle such as if they can fire out of a fire point or with heavy weapons. So for right now, at our store, it doesn't.
   
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