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Actually, with Icon of Nurgle and without FnP, 100 Lasgun shots will only kill 3 Possessed. Interestingly enough, without Icon of Nurgle you lose twice that. Icon of Nurgle is worth its weight in gold.

@DarkHound:
Power weapons are pretty one dimensional... but it does have the possibility of 'horde' control...if you play it as extra gear and so they get +1 A...in addition to the PW ability.

So...still doing well in a counter attack role .

I don't, but I might have to start. At this point I like Rending over Power Weapons (it gives them MC and Tank Hunting, on top of good MEQ and TEQ hunting), so maybe it was meant to get them an extra attack.

I think it is both RAI and RAW that they get 2 close combat weapons.

"Extra Equipment" are the two key words in the possessed entry where it says what they get out of the Daemonkin table, not just 'special rules'.

The power weapon option is the only one that can mean 'extra equipment' as opposed to a 'special rule'. But there are those that disagree...out there in the internets.../sigh.

Ah, the internets, full of individuals that can somehow use computers, yet find the GW rulebooks to be vague and incomprehensible documents...

Looks like I got into the party a little late, and I'm afraid that you fellows have stolen most of the good points. All I can say at this point is that I've had both great experiences with my possessed and horrible experiences with my possessed. My favorite use for them is, as others have said, an independent character escort. Just slap a power-armoured character that you want to bury in combat (which, in the Chaos Codex, is most of them) in a Rhino along with eight possessed and a champion, and you've got yourself a dead-killy squad that hits hard and has the capability to stick around. The special rules table can be iffy sometimes, but I figure that there's a fifty-fifty chance of getting something I really, really want (Power Weapons, Feel No Pain, Rending), and that's honestly enough for me. I've grown to love the random aspects of Chaos... When Chaos fails, it has the tendency to fail hard.


But when it succeeds, at least in my experience, it blows the opposition away.

I was erring on the side of caution, but I did agree with that ruling. Its a similiar issue I have with the Dread; its usefulness sways largely on how the locals play that rule.

The problem I have with the bodyguard approach is that it reduces the Daemonkin rule to only being effective 66% of the time. I used to sometimes deploy my Sorcerer with them, but I've found they just work better when you let them do their own thing.

However, that means the rest of the army has to be more or less effective by itself. You can count on them to be close combat support, but the specifics of their useage is, of course, variable.

Nurglitch wrote:Okay, let's consider two units of equivalent points value, Berzerkers and Possessed, going head to head in the Ork-Murder event at the Olympics. Both face a mob of 30 Orks, 29 Boyz and a Nob with a Powerklaw. The Boyz have Sluggas and Choppas, because we want to lean on the scales in favour of carnage.

Let's say 10 Possessed with an Icon of Khorne vs 9 Berzerkers and a Skull Champion with a Powerfist

Scenario: Charge the Orks.

9 Berzerkers have four attacks on the charge each, hitting on 3+ on the Orks (WS5), wounding on 3+, and failing armour on 5-. The Orks will have three attacks each, with 4+ to hit, 5+ to wound, and failing armour saves on 2-. The Skull Champion and the Nob will strike simultaneously with the Skull Champion hitting on 3+, wounding on 2+, and disallowing saves with four attacks, while the Nob hits on 4+, etc, with three.

Berzerkers: 36 attacks, 24 hits, 18 wounds, 15 failed saves.
Orks: 42 attacks, 21 hits, 7 wounds, 2 failed saves.
Skull Champion: (4)(4/6)(5/6) = 80/36 or 2 & 2/9
Nob: (3)(3/6)(5/6) = 45/36 = 15/12 or 1 & 1/4

So call it 17:3 in favour of the Berzerkers. That means around 14 armour saves for the Orks, and another 12 casualties or so.

Ten Possessed with four attacks on the charge each with 4+ to hit, 3+ to wound, and 5- to save.

Possessed: 40 attacks, 20 hits, 14 wounds, 12 failed saves
Orks: 51 attacks, 26 hits, 8 wounds, 2 failed saves.
Nob: (3)(3/6)(5/6)(4/6) = 180/216 = ~5/6

The Possessed win by 12:2, so 9 more Orks die to failed saves.

The Berzerkers successfully murder 29 Ork boyz at the cost of three of their own. The Possessed merely murder 21 Ork Boyz at the cost of two of their own. In the ensuing Ork close combat phase:

6 Berzerkers have three attacks each, so:

Berzerkers: 18 attacks, 12 hits, 6 wounds, 5 failed saves.
Dead Ork Nob.

8 Possessed have three attacks each, so:

Possessed: 24 attacks, 12 hits, 8 wounds, 7 failed saves
Orks: 3 attacks, 2 hits, 1 wounds, 0 failed saves
Ork Nob: Ork Nob: (4)(3/6)(5/6(4/6) = 1 failed save

Possessed win: 7:1, provoking 6 more failed saves, killing the last boyz and the Nob.

So at the end of two rounds of combat the Possessed and Berzerkers have both demolished a mob of Ork boyz in a frontal assault, the way Khorne intended. There's six Berzerkers left and a Skull Champion, while there's 7 Possessed left.

Of course, had the Possessed had Furious Charge:

Possessed: 40 attacks, 20 hits, 17 wounds, 14 failed saves
Orks: 45 attacks, 23 hits, 8 wounds, 3 failed saves
Ork Nob: Ork Nob: (4)(3/6)(5/6(4/6) = 1 failed save

So the Possessed would win the first round of combat 14:4, resulting in 8-9 more dead Orks, for about 22. They clean these up in the next round.

Had the Possessed had rending:

Possessed: 40 attacks, 20 hits, 14 wounds (3 ignoring armour saves), 12 failed saves. Well, not unexpected: Orks have crappy saves.

Had the Possessed had Power Weapons:

Possessed: 50 attacks, 25 hits, 17 wounds, 17 failed saves.
Orks: 36 attacks, 18 hits, 6 wounds, 2 unsaved wounds.
Ork Nob: Ork Nob: (4)(3/6)(5/6(4/6) = 1 failed save

Possessed win 17:3, which means that the Orks either get luck or get wiped out. In a single round.

Had the Possessed had Feel No Pain:

Possessed: 40 attacks, 20 hits, 14 wounds, 12 failed saves
Orks: 51 attacks, 26 hits, 8 wounds, 2 failed saves, 1 failed Feel No Pain.
Nob: (3)(3/6)(5/6)(4/6) or 1 failed save

12:2, 9 more wounds on the Orks.

But let's suppose it worked out the other way around, where the Boyz mob charged first.

Berzerkers: 27 attacks, 18 hit, 9 wound, 8 failed saves.
Ork Boyz: 84 attacks, 42 hit, 21 wound, 7 failed saves.
Skull Champion: 3 attacks, 2 hit, 2 wound, 2 failed saves
Ork Nob: (4)(3/6)(5/6) = 2 failed saves

The Berzerkers win 10:9, so another Ork boy buys it and the Skull Champion and his buddy are left facing 20 Orks.

Possessed: 27 attacks, 14 hit, 10 wounds, 9 failed saves
Ork Boyz: 80 attacks, 40 hit, 20 wound, 7 failed saves
Ork Nob: (4)(3/6)(5/6(4/6) = 1 failed save

The Possessed win 9:8, so another Ork boy buyz it and two Possessed are left.

And so on. Work out the Power Weapons, Rending, and Feel No Pain variations for your own due diligence.

Hey Guys... I'm one of the more prominent Chaos Gurus over on Librarium-Online. I saw this discussion and had to jump in. The above argument seems a good one but fails to take into account the pistol shots that would be fired by the berzerkers. Barring a Waagh they would get these shots the turn they charge or the turn before being charged. There is also the matter of versatility involved with having the fist(and krak grenades) in the zerker squad. The only real way the posessed can take down a walker is if they roll rending and any good general will try to tarpit them with something they can't touch.

One other point I'll make about posessed is that you don't know what power they have until AFTER they have been deployed. This makes them extremely difficult and borderline frustrating to play with every single time.

That being said, I am not against people using them if they like them. I just agree that I would rather know exactly what everything in my army is capable of before I put it down on the board.

EDIT: I thought it also worth mentioning that the unit of posessed and the unit of zerkers used in the comparison above are not even close to points equivalent. Unless I'm way off the posessed unit mentioned there should run aprox. 280 pts and the unit of zerkers (if we are saying 10, champ included) should run aprox. 250 pts.

Welcome to Dakka, where you don't need to quote long posts in their entirety in your own.

Regarding pistols: Firing pistols before charging is a very bad idea because wound allocation can mean that the models within 6" are removed, and besides the Berzerkers cannot fire their pistols if they are being charged.

Moreover you know exactly what the Possessed will have prior to their deployment: 1/6 results on the Daemonkin table and you can plan accordingly. Saying that you don't know what the result is going to be is like saying that Lootas suck because you don't know how many shots they're going to take (and they have BS2!): it really misses the point about the predictability of Possessed.

As for taking down a Walker, why would you be charging a Walker with infantry?

I take it you're one of those self-proclaimed gurus?

Pistols are nice, but there's two issues that don't always make it a win/win:
1. killing too much in which front models are removed robbing a charge.
2. killing too much to force morale and the opponent falls back out of charge range.

Possessed don't have shooting which does suck in terms of having options, but at least when you roll fleet it's not wasted. In addition it doesn't matter to much they don't have shooting as they should be in a rhino and in most cases counter charging.

See...I've been really loud about the role: Counter Charge for possessed... it minimizes their weaknesses like nothing else.

I'd like to say I'm a prominent chaos poster over in 40K Online And the point of noting this? I have no idea...

As for the tar pitting them with walkers, that's what the rest of the list is supposted to do, support each other and take out stuff they are not supposed to handle.

If walkers were that scary to possessed toss Kharn into the squad as some have suggested them to be IC bodyguard duty.
______________________--

One other point I'll make about posessed is that you don't know what power they have until AFTER they have been deployed. This makes them extremely difficult and borderline frustrating to play with every single time.

Hmm, I don't share that concern...did you have a chance to read the linky I linked in the beginning, it's something I've gone over.

With counter attack roles, all the daemonkin powers are welcomed. It's not difficult and there is no frustration.

As to the comparison I think it's more like 290 for possessed and 250 for zerkers. So there is a difference of roughly 2 Zerkers, which does change the numbers a bit..., but I don't think it's that productive.

Raw damage is not the entire point of possessed...that is the zerkers' job.

Regarding pistols: Firing pistols before charging is a very bad idea because wound allocation can mean that the models within 6" are removed, and besides the Berzerkers cannot fire their pistols if they are being charged.

Possible but unlikely against 30 orks, you're looking at max 2-3 wounds from the pistols... And as I said in my post, the pistols would be fired the turn before being charged (when between 7-12 from the enemy squad). They obviously would not be fired as you are being charged.

Moreover you know exactly what the Possessed will have prior to their deployment: 1/6 results on the Daemonkin table and you can plan accordingly. Saying that you don't know what the result is going to be is like saying that Lootas suck because you don't know how many shots they're going to take (and they have BS2!): it really misses the point about the predictability of Possessed.

Not quite... With Lootas you know they can't scratch a land raider but can take out rhinos and other lighter vehicles like nobodies business. With posessed you will not know if they will be capable of touching vehicles (rending), carving up termis (power weapons), serving as a decent summoning platform (scouts), etc. until after they are on the board. Sure some of it stays the same but the power rolled on the daemon kin table tends to define their specific roll in the battle.

As for taking down a Walker, why would you be charging a Walker with infantry?

You wouldn't but any competent opponent would if at all possible. Given the amount of Walkers out there and the various ways they have of getting close to your force (podding, DSing BA dreads, fleeting defilers, even just running(Kans / Deff Dreads)) I feel it is a VERY valid point.

You also ignored the point difference in the two units. Taking into account the pistol shots and the whole extra zerkers you can get to bring the points closer it becomes obvious that the zerkers win out.

I take it you're one of those self-proclaimed gurus?

Well, I have been a member of the forum for three years, have nearly 2000 posts, a very high reputation score, hosted the Chaos Army List Builder thread and various vote wars, tested and wrote up a massive review of the new codex after it was released, at one point was in consideration for a "Mod"-ship but turned it down, and have been playing CSM since second edition. If you want to call me a "self-proclaimed guru" that's your call but if you're curious you can check LO for my profile... I go by the same user name over there.

EDIT: I just read this last paragraph and threw up in my mout a little. I'm not trying to say I know more / am more "leet" / whatever than anybody. I was originally just trying to say that I'm not some n3wb who just bought the battle force, I actually know some things.

EDIT 2: Had to add a bit to respond to Sanctjud...

Possessed don't have shooting which does suck in terms of having options, but at least when you roll fleet it's not wasted. In addition it doesn't matter to much they don't have shooting as they should be in a rhino and in most cases counter charging.

See...I've been really loud about the role: Counter Charge for possessed... it minimizes their weaknesses like nothing else.

Hmm, I don't share that concern...did you have a chance to read the linky I linked in the beginning, it's something I've gone over.

With counter attack roles, all the daemonkin powers are welcomed. It's not difficult and there is no frustration.

The "counter charge" thing is interesting, I will give it a try... but in that same vein I would think zerkers will again work better at counter charge.

I'd like to say I'm a prominent chaos poster over in 40K Online And the point of noting this? I have no idea...

As I said above I was just trying to qualify that I am not just some random 11 year old who just Ebayed my army.

If walkers were that scary to possessed toss Kharn into the squad as some have suggested them to be IC bodyguard duty.

This just further increases the point investment in the squad, my point was that the Zerkers do not need support from another squad to deal with armor. There will be times when additional support is not available and I hate handcuffing one unit to another to try and deal with a units weakness.

Podding Dreads (currently and non-forge world) can't charge out of them. So no problem there.

Fleeting Defiler: they should be dead early on...and 18" range shouldn't be too hard to guestimate.

Running walkers vs. rhino squad...seriously? Even then, with mutually supported infantry units, they shouldn't even need to feel threatened by non fleeting running walkers.


"Well, I have been a member of the forum for three years, have nearly 2000 posts, a very high reputation score, hosted ...blah blah blah..."

I've got over 7000 posts over in 40KO.
Am the Daemon Prince leader of the CSM boards.
Have my own tactica and participate a humongo update as well.
I've got 2600+ posts here... blah blah.
I don't think it really matters...what adds weight to your post.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
My "Possessed, Cup Half Full" thread detailed that:
Possessed are best at counter charging.
Zerkers CAN do counter charging, but their role is mainly assaulting fortified positions and taking objectives.

Possessed shine in all other areas...comparitively those same roles are a step down for zerkers abilities.

his just further increases the point investment in the squad, my point was that the Zerkers do not need support from another squad to deal with armor. There will be times when additional support is not available and I hate handcuffing one unit to another to try and deal with a units weakness.

I agree. But it's still a viable option as other have had good experiences with it. I don't like IC's in those squads, but I am loathe to discount it completely as the logic behind putting him there is sound.

Sanctjud wrote:Podding Dreads (currently and non-forge world) can't charge out of them. So no problem there.

Currently a podding dread can drop in next to your rhino and pop it with a MM. Obviously it cant charge but suddenly your posessed are sitting there next a dread with no way to kill it and no transport.

This all changes as well with BA as they will be able to assualt after deep striking.

Sanctjud wrote:Fleeting Defiler: they should be dead early on...and 18" range shouldn't be too hard to guestimate.

Key word there... "should". Never can tell due to changing battle situations, fickle dice gods, etc.

Sanctjud wrote:Running walkers vs. rhino squad...seriously? Even then, with mutually supported infantry units, they shouldn't even need to feel threatened by non fleeting running walkers.

Rhinos are high priority targets on almost anyones list of things to kill, so assuming that you will always have it / never be in charge range of a walker seems like a mistake to me.

Sanctjud wrote:"Well, I have been a member of the forum for three years, have nearly 2000 posts, a very high reputation score, hosted ...blah blah blah..."

I've got over 7000 posts over in 40KO.
Am the Daemon Prince leader of the CSM boards.
Have my own tactica and participate a humongo update as well.
I've got 2600+ posts here... blah blah.
I don't think it really matters...what adds weight to your post.

As I said above.... I wasn't trying to rile anyone up. My original statement about being a prominent member of LO was (an obviously) bad attempt to both introduce myself (as our forums were bugging out on me) and try to let people know I am not a new player.

Sanctjud wrote:Automatically Appended Next Post:
My "Possessed, Cup Half Full" thread detailed that:
Possessed are best at counter charging.
Zerkers CAN do counter charging, but their role is mainly assaulting fortified positions and taking objectives.

Possessed shine in all other areas...comparitively those same roles are a step down for zerkers abilities.

The only area that I can see posessed outshine zerkers every time on a single model basis is survivability but this changes when we take into account points costs of units. Lets put it this way... If I have a unit of normal CSM in combat with assualt termis I would much rather have zerkers charging in to save my bacon than a similarly costed unit of posessed.

Sanctjud wrote:I agree. But it's still a viable option as other have had good experiences with it. I don't like IC's in those squads, but I am loathe to discount it completely as the logic behind putting him there is sound.

The logic does make sense, I agree but as I said I hate handcuffing one unit to another. With zerkers I never have to wonder how they are going to deal with armor, the fist and grenades take care of that for me.

This will prob. not help progress possessed, but you are correct that there was prob. more than one way your introduction could be described as.

I don't think it's needed though, if you offer insight and objective well thoughtout posts (and you do) you shouldn't need to describe your history.
______________________
Back on topic though:

18" guestimate, true should... but that relies on the opponent rolling a 6 and one screwing up a pretty basic range that most are able to see... in addition the defiler is pretty big and stuck at AV12.
IMO and in my experience against and using, they are dead early...so early that the 18" thingy doesn't come up often.

Possessed sitting next to the dread that podded in and blew up their ride:
Yes, sad panda face the rhino is dead, but like I said, the melta gun CSM squad should be next to the possessed, well in 2D6 range...and pretty much the rest of the CSM army should they need to deal with it.

Rhinos are high priority targets on almost anyones list of things to kill, so assuming that you will always have it / never be in charge range of a walker seems like a mistake to me.

The idea is that the possessed in a rhino is not as a high priority as the other three with cults or CSMs.
In addition, it's not that they are never in a situation that they will be charged... what I'm talking about is deploying so you have a say in the whole thing as opposed to the one on one situations that sort of trip up discussions about a spotlight unit.

The only area that I can see posessed outshine zerkers every time on a single model basis is survivability but this changes when we take into account points costs of units.
-Possessed are better in protracted fights in terms of wounding on a squad basis.
-They are more durable to power armor ignoring stuff.
-They have a natural 2 A so won't lose it against wych weapons..for the lolz.
-2/6 they kill power armor better on a squad basis.
-2/6 they are faster than zerkers.
-1/6 they are tougher against all forms of attacks.
-1/6 they will be as fast on the charge and hit a bit harder on a squad basis.

Basically, that's what you expect out of a somewhat hybrid unit.
They obviously won't perform as well as specilized units in their specialized field...

Sanctjud wrote:18" guestimate, true should... but that relies on the opponent rolling a 6 and one screwing up a pretty basic range that most are able to see... in addition the defiler is pretty big and stuck at AV12.
IMO and in my experience against and using, they are dead early...so early that the 18" thingy doesn't come up often.

My "Should" was more in relation to the defiler being killed early. In a toruney environment you are likely to see 2-3 or none at all in addition to other high priority targets such as the rhinos you mention below and lashing DPS, possibly oblits, etc. In this setting one can't be sure the defilers will be gone early.

Sanctjud wrote:Possessed sitting next to the dread that podded in and blew up their ride:
Yes, sad panda face the rhino is dead, but like I said, the melta gun CSM squad should be next to the possessed, well in 2D6 range...and pretty much the rest of the CSM army should they need to deal with it.

There are too many variables here for either of us to be right. Sure, the posessed could be right in the middle of your line at the start of the game with support or they could be caught alone by an objective on turn 4. I'm just one of those people that loves redundancy, knowing that I have a solution to armor in every squad.

Sanctjud wrote:The idea is that the possessed in a rhino is not as a high priority as the other three with cults or CSMs. In addition, it's not that they are never in a situation that they will be charged... what I'm talking about is deploying so you have a say in the whole thing as opposed to the one on one situations that sort of trip up discussions about a spotlight unit.

Tactical deployment can help but this brings us back around to the topic of not knowing their power before deployment. Posessed are not tactically versatile because of both this and the fact that they do require support most of the time.

Sanctjud wrote:-Possessed are better in protracted fights in terms of wounding on a squad basis.

True but zerkers have the edge on number of attacks when comparing equal points squads plus as mentioned zerkers can "wound" armor where posessed only can reliably 1/6th of the time.

Sanctjud wrote:-They are more durable to power armor ignoring stuff.
-They have a natural 2 A so won't lose it against wych weapons..for the lolz.
-2/6 they kill power armor better on a squad basis.
-2/6 they are faster than zerkers.
-1/6 they are tougher against all forms of attacks.
-1/6 they will be as fast on the charge and hit a bit harder on a squad basis.

The invulnerable save and FNP are good and make the posessed tougher to kill but taking the points cost into account brings the effectiveness of this down a little bit imo. I will agree that there is also a tipping point(armor save of opponent) between posessed and zerkers at which one squad is better than another at killing. Zerkers have the edge against hordes and posessed can have the edge against power armour.

My problem with all of the above is again, you NEVER know what you are bringing to the table. 4/6 times zerkers are better at killing anything than posessed are. 5/6 times plague marines are more survivable in general. 5/6 (I don't count fleet) chosen are a better summoning platform.

Sanctjud wrote:Basically, that's what you expect out of a somewhat hybrid unit.
They obviously won't perform as well as specilized units in their specialized field...

I guess it just comes down to play style, my deployment always takes into account what a unit is capable of and with posessed you cannot know that until the game starts. I just refuse to leave anything to chance if I can help it.

@ironangel256:

My "Should" was more in relation to the defiler being killed early. In a toruney environment you are likely to see 2-3 or none at all in addition to other high priority targets such as the rhinos you mention below and lashing DPS, possibly oblits, etc. In this setting one can't be sure the defilers will be gone early.

The defiler has similar lethality as the other options you have listed.
The majority of the world will not share that opinion of possessed, hence lower threat to them and less likely to be targeted.
In addition, compared to the Lash DP and Oblits, it’s much easier to get rid of the defiler… and as I said, defilers never survive when I’m involved…though a small number of games I’ve played/witness compared to the world that is.

There are too many variables here for either of us to be right. Sure, the posessed could be right in the middle of your line at the start of the game with support or they could be caught alone by an objective on turn 4. I'm just one of those people that loves redundancy, knowing that I have a solution to armor in every squad.

Why ‘could’ if one knows they will be for counter attack and will place it near the majority of their forces? It’s the decision of the player to follow it… it’s not like he randomly places units down.
As for caught alone, it depends… if they assaulted a position and knocked off a scoring unit, the trade was successful. They won’t be alone if you plan for them to not be alone…I’m not sure what you are trying to say there… if you deploy 2 units and follow through with the plan that they move within each others’ area or influence…it’s not like one unit has rage and goes the other direction.
As for the last part, it’s a difference in play style then. I don’t mind having specialist squads and focusing on units that work together more than an army of generalists. Don’t get me wrong, I very much like redundancy and having each unit take on all comers. But the point I’m making is that those that poo-poo possessed are not using them… or not using them with an appropriate expectation to get the most out of them.

Tactical deployment can help but this brings us back around to the topic of not knowing their power before deployment. Posessed are not tactically versatile because of both this and the fact that they do require support most of the time.

I’m sorry, could you explain that first part again. I frankly don’t get it. I never have a problem with deployment or not knowing what power they will get.
I see the list 5/6 of the time I know they will be counter attacking, 1/6, they power forward wherever they were placed. It’s that simple and hasn’t failed me yet.

True but zerkers have the edge on number of attacks when comparing equal points squads plus as mentioned zerkers can "wound" armor where posessed only can reliably 1/6th of the time.

Yes, the zerkers don’t just edge out…they are actually better overall in killing, which is not surprising, and brings us back to my last point in my previous post.

My problem with all of the above is again, you NEVER know what you are bringing to the table. 4/6 times zerkers are better at killing anything than posessed are. 5/6 times plague marines are more survivable in general. 5/6 (I don't count fleet) chosen are a better summoning platform.

*Scouts: doesn’t affect their killing, but they are stuck in earlier (turn 2 even), that is a huge leg up over zerkers.
*Fleet: again, faster into combat. These really don’t have number values to rival the Zerkers’ numbers. But if the possessed are in combat turn 2 and the zerkers are still going there… then any numbers the possessed bring is better than 0 .
*FNP: ‘more’ durability, this affects combat resolution just a little, not as much as pure muscle, but it can help combat.
*Furious Charge: comparatively, they get to wound better than zerkers and at the same time, and helps up their combat results, but yea, Zerkers would be better with the extra attack over possessed. Zerkers would have a fist, but for mass str 6, Zerkers are only limited to single krak grenades.
*Rending: Helps, but I don’t think they end up with the same damage output as zerkers, but at least it’s not like losing a specific model takes out the main teeth of the squad (fist).
*Power Weapons:
Again, it’s a point of view. I know what will be on the table and plan for the unit based on the pre-daemonkin table. Whatever they roll is whatever they get…I’m clear on what they do regardless of what they roll.

Yes zerkers are better at killing, they are the specialists.
Yes plague marines are durable, they are the specialists. Possessed combatty a bit better and the inv save.
Chosen: they are better summoning platforms only 2/3 of the time (dawn of war screws both in terms of getting icons onto the board early).
In addition, Chosen should be outflanking in a rhino as infiltrating chosen is IMO not a serious unit.

I guess it just comes down to play style, my deployment always takes into account what a unit is capable of and with posessed you cannot know that until the game starts.

It’s not just play style, it’s specifically the point of view. How often do you use/witness possessed?

I just refuse to leave anything to chance if I can help it.

…this whole game is chance…
…oh and this is Chaos Space Marines… Home of the bloodfeeder and crazy dreads.
My response: PLAY WITH A PAIR! .

…oh and this is Chaos Space Marines… Home of the bloodfeeder and crazy dreads.
My response: PLAY WITH A PAIR! .

Best statement from you EVER. Found myself an addition to my signature.

Sanctjud wrote:

ironangel256 wrote:
I just refuse to leave anything to chance if I can help it.

…this whole game is chance…
…oh and this is Chaos Space Marines… Home of the bloodfeeder and crazy dreads.
My response: PLAY WITH A PAIR! .

key phrase: "If I can help it"

Play with a pair? Or play with a pair while using some sense to determine which risks in our codex are not worth the "reward".

From a strategic sense, plasma weapons, daemon weapons, and kharn the betrayer all have a very strong reward to make up for their 1 in 6 risk of doing something you don't want. Our chaos dreadnoughts have double that chance(while some can be reduced by weapon swaps and placement) and just do not have some great reward that makes them worth it in most cases. My problem with possessed has more to do with their point cost than anything else, but they also have a lot of potential risk based around their daemonkin roll(modified by your own army setup, your experience playing them, and your opponent and his army) There is plenty of room for having some fun risk in a csm army while still measuring that risk as worthwhile or not.

From a fluff sense, not very many chaos marine armies/renegades are bloodthirsty to the exclusion of all else. For instance I doubt an alpha legion commander would rush off blindly onto the battlefield to make some chaos god happy or use blood-crazed dreadnoughts when they could demolish their own lines just as easily as the opponents. The only legions/warbands I agree would do something like that would be berzerkers, word bearers, and possibly slaanesh cultists due to their zealot nature. So I think the idea that chaos players need to use these types of risky weapons to be "chaos-y" is wrong.

The chaos gods are fickle. Thats why chaos is random, it is ever changing. Just like the gods themselves. Read the chaos daemons codex. It explains how the gods work.

Nurglitch -"Something else I'll add, which is another point where I disagree with Darkhound and Sanctjud ("largely not designed for them"? the cheek...), is that Possessed helped me love the Lash. "

Possessed, being only close combate, have a unit tossed in front of them? With base S5 and a power, most might i add give a CC benefit, and a +5 Invul make damaging assaults.

In certain cases, they can wipe out a Power Klaw nob squad. They can make the saves they need and hopefully, will clean them up. If you avoid the small arms fire and get them in the fray they are vital to any of my battle plans.

Im planning on having 2 squads of them of 7-8 with rhinos, so that you have more you can do with them.

Blood4Khorne:

I think you misunderstood the purpose of putting a Sorcerer in a squad of Possessed. The purpose is three-hold.

Firstly they're Fearless. That means that so long as he joins the unit, the Sorcerer is also Fearless.

Secondly they have no shooting of their own, so I'm not wasting their firepower shooting at the unit I want to move into position for my big guns, and after someone else has softened the unit up, then the Possessed have an ideal target to mop up.

Thirdly, and this is important, it puts a number of Iv5+ bodies and a Rhino between the Sorcerer and anything unpleasant that might happen to him. It makes him considerably more durable than a Daemon Prince, and then gives you much more opportunity to sit in that 24" range where four wounds worth of Bolters might otherwise silence that Lash of Submission.

It's not like they'll lose out on a special weapon if he joins a squad of Possesed in a Rhino.

Well, for all that you lose the usage (as long as he's attached) of Fleet and more importantly Scouts.
So, if the three-fold beneifts outweight the loss of using 1 power and the need to detach the sorc to use a second, then they are a great bodyguard unit.

I personally don't like it, but I recognize that is a viable option for the inv save aspect. I personally like plague marines for the 'bodyguard' job but I'm not one to go ga-ga for ICs these days.

@Halsfield:
Well, the rewards are not hard to see.
Scouts: uber distraction and in your enemy base early.
Fleet: similar to scouts in that you get to have a faster unit to get to combat.

These two is a one up to the zerkers... you can be 10's on all stats, but if you can't get there then they are missing the party.
Certainly the zerkers can make up for lost 'time', but the utiltiy of getting into the opponents' lines faster can't be ignored.

Furious Charge/Rending: generally meh, but meshes with their main role of counter attack and going after enemy units that are not concerned with objective camping.

Power Weapons

Feel No Pain: all purpose tarpit really in addition to their primary role.

Possessed have an opportunity cost that turns people off. This is very true, no disagreement there. Here is another point of view, what if the lack of options is a good thing?
With a generalist squad, they offer you a menu of deployment options and what to engage etc. With that menu you get to pick and choose. There is an opportunity cost here as well, setting them up in one spot to deal with Item one inconveniences the rest of the list as they could have used their other abilities on another target. You might get tempted into different directions all good, and all but one are fulfilled.
With possessed, you wipe away all the options (which I understand is generally the reason why they are frowned upon), their role is clear, their application is clear, their deployment is clear.
With the way I approach them, there is no mystery, there is no randomness that would negatively affect you.
They do their job and allow others do focus on other aspects of their inclusion.

From a strategic sense, plasma weapons, daemon weapons, and kharn the betrayer all have a very strong reward to make up for their 1 in 6 risk of doing something you don't want.

Funny, I’m risk averse when it comes to hurting your own guys as opposed to a roll on a table that gives the possessed a flat bonus.

Our chaos dreadnoughts have double that chance(while some can be reduced by weapon swaps and placement) and just do not have some great reward that makes them worth it in most cases.

Funny you should mention Dreads…during my time with Crap Legion I had the fortunate occurrence to have good experiences with it and that’s playing with it turning full around and shooting something behind him…now should I play what others think is the correct way, it can only be better.
As for the crazies…with the ‘right’ way of playing them it’s a lot more reliable to do good things for you.
As for blood rage, dreads should be 2DCCW or DCCW+wpn…and since they are a close infantry support platform it’s not a bad thing for them to rage forward…with a MM/DCCW, I lost very little raging 2-3 turns…and during turns 4-7 raging will likely get him into combat…so no biggie.

My problem with possessed has more to do with their point cost than anything else, but they also have a lot of potential risk based around their daemonkin roll(modified by your own army setup, your experience playing them, and your opponent and his army) There is plenty of room for having some fun risk in a csm army while still measuring that risk as worthwhile or not.

No aguement on their crazy pricing.
Risky Daemonkin Rolls…still see it that way…
Just take them at face value and deploy them. Then 5/6 of the powers they get won’t affect what they essentially do, while the last 1/6 just makes them a distraction unit that powers forward…there is no risk nor uncertainty. Profit?

Sanctjud wrote:With a generalist squad, they offer you a menu of deployment options and what to engage etc. With that menu you get to pick and choose. There is an opportunity cost here as well, setting them up in one spot to deal with Item one inconveniences the rest of the list as they could have used their other abilities on another target. You might get tempted into different directions all good, and all but one are fulfilled.
With possessed, you wipe away all the options (which I understand is generally the reason why they are frowned upon), their role is clear, their application is clear, their deployment is clear.
With the way I approach them, there is no mystery, there is no randomness that would negatively affect you.

I found this interesting, because although we are on the same side, it is exactly the opposite of what I'm saying. In my list their role is vague, their application is variable and their deployment is convoluted.

The Great Enemy wrote:You need more. 7 isn't enough really for an effective unit. Since they do have the potential to be so devastating, they become prime targets as they cross the board to get into hand-to-hand.

I, for example, try not to field a unit of less than 15, closer to a full 20.
In a prime example, my 20-strong squad tore apart three full units of Black Templar in about 2 1/2 turns.

It may seem a bit pricey to field a full unit, but it's better than going with a cheaper one and having only a couple survive long enough.
This is, if course, only my opinion, and is completely subjective.

This is how I run mine. 20 strong unit with the MoT. I found the smaller units got gutted before the got where they were going. I'd like to try two units of ten in Rhino's though. Warp Spiders tend to really work the Possessed over.

@Darkhound:
It was actually my point. The point of view was supposed to be 'different'

@kid_happy:
I've never tried a 20 man possessed. Sounds balls, but risking sounding like a hater, that's a lot of points for what you get, and the inability for the to get into a transport furthur limits their ability to contribute to the game until late.

They look like a great tarpit/12" area of no go for infantry squads.

The only issue is echoing a point from the 'opposition' side: Walkers, the AV12 and up kind.
With a small squad you save points for a squad to handle said enemy unit.
With a large sqauad you strain the army and offer a much bigger target for neutralization.

20 possessed with MoN walking across the table would be a huge pain in the balls to get rid of. Ive used 10 with MoS in a raider before. Great fun when you roll power weapons or rending.

I grappled the shoggoth wrote:20 possessed with MoN walking across the table would be a huge pain in the balls to get rid of. Ive used 10 with MoS in a raider before. Great fun when you roll power weapons or rending.

You don't think in that situation the MoT would be better? The biggest danger they have walking out in the open usually isn't from short range anti-infantry/meq weapons, but more long range heavy ordnance/etc that will negate their regular save and have little trouble blowing past even their increased toughness.

mrwittwer wrote:The chaos gods are fickle. Thats why chaos is random, it is ever changing. Just like the gods themselves. Read the chaos daemons codex. It explains how the gods work.

I'm not sure who you intended this for...but I think it is pretty obvious that the chaos gods are fickle and ever-changing. There is this one guy called Tzeentch also known as the lord of change...

I also think you should be aware that not all chaos armies are chaos-worshipping but still may take risks to gain rewards more recklessly than loyalists or other armies like the eldar. Dreadnoughts certainly don't have to be crazed solely because of chaos influence but could be because of the entombing process or they were mad before they ever "died".

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Sanctjud wrote:
@Halsfield:
Well, the rewards are not hard to see...

My post was a response in a general sense to your comment that a chaos player should grow a pair and be fine with risk in any form(not in any way about possessed specifically). I was saying that even if you're taking on risk, you can make sure the risks are worth the reward. I feel that the risks you take with plasma(on the right squad), daemon weapons, and kharn are well worth it because the risk is quite low (greater than 80% of the time something good will happen to you and something bad will happen to your enemy), and the rewards are quite great(decent amounts of tough troops dead).

Conversely, I feel that the reward (regardless of the risk which we could argue about for days) is not worth it with possessed and dreads (especially for their points).

Sanctjud wrote:
Here is another point of view, what if the lack of options is a good thing?

I understand what you're saying,but I really don't agree. I just do not see an experienced player losing focus and using his csms in an inefficient way simply because they can fill a lot of different roles. I still feel other units fill the possessed's role better,for less points quite often, and still have flexibility to do other things when the game's events call for it. I could even say a unit that is 100% only able to hurt things in CC is slightly predictable and could be used against you.

Obviously we're going to keep disagreeing here so I think it is better if we stop going around and around in circles. I will use my possessed for their wings and other amazingly cool bits(using other elite/troop options to fill the possessed's role), and you can use your possessed as tough CC monsters with a slightly random element thrown in to keep your opponent on their toes. The second they drop the point cost on possessed to a reasonable level (or allow us to pick our gift before the game begins) I will be all over them.

Sanctjud wrote:during my time with Crap Legion I had the fortunate occurrence to have good experiences...

As for blood rage, dreads should be 2DCCW or DCCW+wpn…

I mentioned that their risk can be reduced by proper equipping and placement of the unit, but even when this is done they are not a good unit for the points. There are better units for long range and/or armored support, and there are better ways of getting strong melee attacks in a hardened infantry unit. They are a big target, have poor front armor, have a 2/6 chance to do something you don't want them doing(again, this can be altered by equipment and playstyle), and effectively have one wound which can be taken by a wide variety of common weapons. The risk can be high, and even when it is not the reward is low.

I also don't see how you having a good experience with a unit makes them good or bad when discussing what players in general should take in their armies. If you had a good experience there are plenty of bad experiences all over the battle report forums and in FLGS around the world. Those still happen even when they have taken precautions to reduce the risk of the crazed roll. It just isn't a good way to prove a point.

Sanctjud wrote:
Risky Daemonkin Rolls…still see it that way…

I see any daemonkin roll other than a 6 as having not gotten your points worth, so yes I say it is a risk to take them. I did also say that the risk can be reduced based on what your opponent brings to the table, your experience using the other daemonkin rolls, and your own army covering for any "weaknesses" the possessed's have. For instance if your opponent is taking a lot of units that are easily eaten by a tough CC unit they are less risky because regardless of the DK roll they will be effective (albeit still overpriced).

Halsfield wrote:
From a fluff sense, not very many chaos marine armies/renegades are bloodthirsty to the exclusion of all else. For instance I doubt an alpha legion commander would rush off blindly onto the battlefield to make some chaos god happy or use blood-crazed dreadnoughts when they could demolish their own lines just as easily as the opponents. The only legions/warbands I agree would do something like that would be berzerkers, word bearers, and possibly slaanesh cultists due to their zealot nature. So I think the idea that chaos players need to use these types of risky weapons to be "chaos-y" is wrong.

When what gives you power is random, your power is random. Sometimes its good, somtimes its bad.

And not all dreads are crazy. Most of them arent, the fact that they are never allowed to sleep drives them to insanity. That's why they remove the sarcophagus from the machine when not in use. And they chain up the dreanought because they fear that if even a tiny bit of the host's soul remains it could kill them all.

While i agree not all chaos cults are not willing to sacrifice themselves or take unneeded risks, the idea of chaos is change. Shouldnt the codex reflect that?

And the current codex is by far less random than previous codex's.

Is it worth it? Is it strong? As long as you know what you are doing.

Maybe thats your problem?

Late to the thread

My PoV? You'll be surprised to lear that I love Possessed on the tabletop.

The problem? I don't love them as much as the things they take force org slots and points from.

If they were FA, with a Winged option, I'd run them in a heartbeat.

(Note, can’t get to all points I’d like, it’s getting late)

The reward I see to using Possessed are hard to quantify in relation to things like Plamsa and DWs.
Mainly Fleet/Scouts, you are their earlier…the rewards here are huge, maybe eclipsing the other options.

All these powers help them in combat with different rewards associated.
-Earlier into combat is huge.
-Three offensive powers ranging from better MEQ killing, taking on anything, and mass wounding tougher models.
-Lastly a meh but interesting combination of defenses.

I find scouts/fleet/powerweapons/rending to be highly desirable…actually scouts used to be the horrid in 4th, but so good in 5th.
The more average ones from my point of view is furious charge and FNP.
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Again, the grow a pair comment was a joke…a Warmachine joke…which I guess I should have spelled out instead of rely on the emocon to convey that…/sigh.

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I wasn’t talking about using generalist poorly, I was talking about how they will always have an opportunity cost in terms of engaging one aspect they can fight and not the other.
What I was trying to say is that possessed are very clear in what they do and has no opportunity cost in that regard.
Now, on the flip side, it’s just saying that CSM are flexible and possessed are not…which I agree.
It seems contradictory I will admit…it may just be I’m working at a lost cause.
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Dreads equipped safely are cheaper than loyalists and are the only armor apart from rhinos in the elites slot if you are hurting for more armor.
They then get bonuses of double shots or fleet.
The only problem is if you place stuff in the 45 degree zone in front of the dread and rolling fire frenzy, it is something you can avoid (outside of lash).

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My whole goal is to present these ‘lesser’ choices as FUNCTIONAL. I have noted that the possessed are overpriced and have no arguments there, but I’ve seen that people don’t give possessed any credit for being a very decent unit with that one issue aside…as you said, if that one thing is changed to an appropriate level, they will be ‘workable’ to the….risk averse (for a lack of a better term I was going for).

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Lets try this. They are butt ugly expensive, yes.

But are they functional? Can they perform a role in the army? Are they a sort of hybrid combat unit that will obviously not top the specialists?
Can their application make-up for the things they lack?