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IggyEssEmManlyMan wrote:
Armoured sentiles are EXTREMABYSMATERRIBAD!!!!!!!!1!111!!!!!!!1elventyone!1!!!!!!!

use scout sentinels w/ lascannons and use the infilktrate move to outflank on the side of a table edge and fire into rear armor of transports and the like

As fun as this proposition is, that's a 50pt, AV10, open topped walker with a single shot weapon on BS3. If it misses it'll get wtfpwned in your opponents phase, and the lascannon seriously limits its overall potential targets.


L. Wrex

Edited for not knowing the correct BS on my own army. I win at the  internetz!!!111!

Volkov wrote:
Have you used an executioner for the same price?

I haven't but atm I lack the model and have been using a manticore and some Battle tanks in my Heavy slots (not in a squadron.) As I mentioned they are expensive, but so far I've had good luck with mine. YMMV of coarse.

Cheers
~Volkan

Wehrkind wrote:Plus you get to make little AT-AT PEW PEW sounds when they shoot.

- best reason to have them... lol you=win



Also, if you can get them amidst a mob of orks, or any group of troops, when they get cut down...and explode...they do massive damage as well...

seriously, I'd magnetize the weapon choices.

alarmingrick wrote:seriously, I'd magnetize the weapon choices.

That would be the best way to satisfy everyone's take on each weapon

Ailaros wrote:why all this love for the AC? Multilasers are just as good against AV10, and they're better against infantry. The only thing the AC can do is vainly patter against AV12 instead of just peel the paint. Plus, the Multilaser is even cheaper to boot (enough to give a squad a mortar or upgrade a GL to a meltagun).

Not liking AC? Giving squads mortars? Thinking that the multilaser is a better anti tank weapon than the AC?

Wow, what edition of 40k are you playing? The AC is without a doubt the most effective AT weapon against transports (AV 10, 11, 12). The multilaser might be slightly better vs 10, but it is horribly worse vs 11 and 12. The lascannon is again slightly better vs 12, but much worse against 10 and 11. The AC is good against all.

I'm playing an edition where units are fast and cover is cheap and plentiful. This isn't 3rd ed anymore where you can just sit around with high strength, multi-shot weapons and shout suck it at your opponents.

Scout sentinels outflank which means that they will be shooting at a lot of AV10, which the multilaser is as good at handling. That or AV12, which neither are. The only time you're really looking at AV11 is against the sides of rhinos, but the odds of you coming in on the field fast enough to kill smoking rhinos before they drop off their cargo is so long, it's not really worth considering that much. Actually, I would say this is true for any transport, and, as such, I wouldn't take them to kill transports anyways, but that's another matter.

The reason I doubt that the AC is the most effective antitransport weapon is because we're now in 5th ed, and the maths have changed.

Dainty Twerp wrote:

Ailaros wrote:why all this love for the AC?

because we live in the world of tabletop experience, where you plainly live in the world of theoryhammer...

AC offer one other major bonus, 48" range. Little AV 10 walkers get hosed down quickly by the medium strength, high volume of fire guns of the 41st century, like say, multilasers, assault cannons, heavy bolters, scatter lasers and other such weapons. Most of which are out ranged by the autocannon.

do you know how easy it is to kill a techpriest with servitors? If you pointed two plasma cannons at me in that squad (which also can't move) I would look at it harshly with a heavy bolter and make it go away. Or at least the servitors. AV 12 in cover has a lot more staying power, especially when there's three of them.

I have used scout sentinels a lot, both in fun games and in competition. I do not upgrade it for the reason that as a distraction and throwaway unit, I'd rather not spend the 5 points on the AC, when the MultiL in my experience does just fine. If points were equal, then the AC wins for sure, but I use the 5 points to upgrade other stuff. Surprisingly, the single scout sentinel I use does not die as easy as I thought it would though. The range factor is not too important for me since with an astropath I get to select the side it enters thus it gets busy quick....

Ailaros wrote:I'm playing an edition where units are fast and cover is cheap and plentiful. This isn't 3rd ed anymore where you can just sit around with high strength, multi-shot weapons and shout suck it at your opponents.

Scout sentinels outflank which means that they will be shooting at a lot of AV10, which the multilaser is as good at handling. That or AV12, which neither are. The only time you're really looking at AV11 is against the sides of rhinos, but the odds of you coming in on the field fast enough to kill smoking rhinos before they drop off their cargo is so long, it's not really worth considering that much. Actually, I would say this is true for any transport, and, as such, I wouldn't take them to kill transports anyways, but that's another matter.

The reason I doubt that the AC is the most effective antitransport weapon is because we're now in 5th ed, and the maths have changed.

Multilaz
vs AV10
0.50 pens, 0.25 glances
vs AV11
0.25 pens, 0.25 glances
vs AV 12
0.25 glances

Autocannon
vs AV10
0.50 pens, 0.17 glances (0.08 glances worse)
vs AV11
0.33 pens, 0.17 glances (0.08 glances upgraded to pens)
vs AV 12
0.17 pens, 0.17 glances (0.08 glances upgraded to 0.17 pens)

I'd take the AC over the ML every game.

As for scout sentinels, they are AV10 open topped squadrons, which means that they will die like flies to everything.
In the 2 turns it takes you to get your scout sentinels outflanking, my autocannons are shooting at your army. When they arrive, they shoot their inferior multilasers at AV 10 or 11 side armor and die next round of shooting.

I'll take my 130p fast skimmer transport vendetta with 3xTLLC over 3 anything sentinels any day.

ph34r wrote:

Ailaros wrote:I'm playing an edition where units are fast and cover is cheap and plentiful. This isn't 3rd ed anymore where you can just sit around with high strength, multi-shot weapons and shout suck it at your opponents.

Scout sentinels outflank which means that they will be shooting at a lot of AV10, which the multilaser is as good at handling. That or AV12, which neither are. The only time you're really looking at AV11 is against the sides of rhinos, but the odds of you coming in on the field fast enough to kill smoking rhinos before they drop off their cargo is so long, it's not really worth considering that much. Actually, I would say this is true for any transport, and, as such, I wouldn't take them to kill transports anyways, but that's another matter.

The reason I doubt that the AC is the most effective antitransport weapon is because we're now in 5th ed, and the maths have changed.

Multilaz
vs AV10
0.50 pens, 0.25 glances
vs AV11
0.25 pens, 0.25 glances
vs AV 12
0.25 glances

Autocannon
vs AV10
0.50 pens, 0.17 glances (0.08 glances worse)
vs AV11
0.33 pens, 0.17 glances (0.08 glances upgraded to pens)
vs AV 12
0.17 pens, 0.17 glances (0.08 glances upgraded to 0.17 pens)

I'd take the AC over the ML every game.

As for scout sentinels, they are AV10 open topped squadrons, which means that they will die like flies to everything.
In the 2 turns it takes you to get your scout sentinels outflanking, my autocannons are shooting at your army. When they arrive, they shoot their inferior multilasers at AV 10 or 11 side armor and die next round of shooting.

I'll take my 130p fast skimmer transport vendetta with 3xTLLC over 3 anything sentinels any day.

on the contrary, my outflanking scout sentinel does not die the next turn in many games...there are games where it survives....this is really true! Even during competitions...you can check my batreps in an older thread "the 7th Galen does GT" November last year, and see that surprisingly my multilaser armed single scout sentinel did not drop like a fly automatically the turn after it comes in! And it was a pain in the butt of my enemies such that they expended ammunition on it more than it was worth!

I have been using the multilaser scout sentinel a lot since 4th ed..in 4th ed I used it together with the drop troop doctrine (that was real cool, I miss it), in this ed it is obviously the outflanking sentinel. I agree the AC is a great weapon, but with the way I use my sentinels I'd rather spend the points somewhere else. My expectation IS for it to die, but the sentinel has always surprised me with it's durability (1 secret I believe is that it comes in together with other stuff, in 4th ed it is used in conjunction with the squads which happen to drop in the same turn, and 5th ed the sentinel outflanks together with other units which come in that turn..thus the sentinel is not the automatic target for retribution)....and it is only 35 points....as long as it contributes to the greater objective of winning the battle for me, it is a viable option for the FA slot together with the skimmers, dog tanks and rough riders. Besides, the are 3 FA slots, so there is room for sentinels to work together with all the other options out there.

freddieyu1 wrote:

ph34r wrote:

Ailaros wrote:I'm playing an edition where units are fast and cover is cheap and plentiful. This isn't 3rd ed anymore where you can just sit around with high strength, multi-shot weapons and shout suck it at your opponents.

Scout sentinels outflank which means that they will be shooting at a lot of AV10, which the multilaser is as good at handling. That or AV12, which neither are. The only time you're really looking at AV11 is against the sides of rhinos, but the odds of you coming in on the field fast enough to kill smoking rhinos before they drop off their cargo is so long, it's not really worth considering that much. Actually, I would say this is true for any transport, and, as such, I wouldn't take them to kill transports anyways, but that's another matter.

The reason I doubt that the AC is the most effective antitransport weapon is because we're now in 5th ed, and the maths have changed.

Multilaz
vs AV10
0.50 pens, 0.25 glances
vs AV11
0.25 pens, 0.25 glances
vs AV 12
0.25 glances

Autocannon
vs AV10
0.50 pens, 0.17 glances (0.08 glances worse)
vs AV11
0.33 pens, 0.17 glances (0.08 glances upgraded to pens)
vs AV 12
0.17 pens, 0.17 glances (0.08 glances upgraded to 0.17 pens)

I'd take the AC over the ML every game.

As for scout sentinels, they are AV10 open topped squadrons, which means that they will die like flies to everything.
In the 2 turns it takes you to get your scout sentinels outflanking, my autocannons are shooting at your army. When they arrive, they shoot their inferior multilasers at AV 10 or 11 side armor and die next round of shooting.

I'll take my 130p fast skimmer transport vendetta with 3xTLLC over 3 anything sentinels any day.

on the contrary, my outflanking scout sentinel does not die the next turn in many games...there are games where it survives....this is really true! Even during competitions...you can check my batreps in an older thread "the 7th Galen does GT" November last year, and see that surprisingly my multilaser armed single scout sentinel did not drop like a fly automatically the turn after it comes in! And it was a pain in the butt of my enemies such that they expended ammunition on it more than it was worth!

I have been using the multilaser scout sentinel a lot since 4th ed..in 4th ed I used it together with the drop troop doctrine (that was real cool, I miss it), in this ed it is obviously the outflanking sentinel. I agree the AC is a great weapon, but with the way I use my sentinels I'd rather spend the points somewhere else. My expectation IS for it to die, but the sentinel has always surprised me with it's durability (1 secret I believe is that it comes in together with other stuff, in 4th ed it is used in conjunction with the squads which happen to drop in the same turn, and 5th ed the sentinel outflanks together with other units which come in that turn..thus the sentinel is not the automatic target for retribution)....and it is only 35 points....as long as it contributes to the greater objective of winning the battle for me, it is a viable option for the FA slot together with the skimmers, dog tanks and rough riders. Besides, the are 3 FA slots, so there is room for sentinels to work together with all the other options out there.

i feel that they take away slots my Vendettas will use.
now if we could still take them as part of the CCS like from 4th ed., that would be different. right now though my Vendettas are top pick...
and as for armored Sentinel variants, i'd rather spend the points on another Chimera. 2 heavy weapons and can transport.

Actually I use the sentinel as a useful point filler...it is easier to fill gaps with 35 pts than the full cost of a vendetta...it depends on the list I'm using...there are times I go overboard on the HS, or the elites, rather than the FA..the scout sentinel is easy to throw in, as I know I can maximize it....

Anyway, this thread is about how to use the sentinels, and is not a sentinel vs vendetta, whatever, FA slot....and it seems that sentinels are used successfully by different players, which is an opinion I share, having tested it in the field of battle...it does NOT (and should not) replace what a vendetta/valk does, but is still a choice that can work used properly..

A couple of things on sentinel vs vendetta:

1. Its easier to find cover for a sentinel
2. If you play cityfight (or any dense terrain) its easier to place a sentinel
3. People generally ignore sentinels whilst screaming 'DIE *&£$%^&*' at vendies
4. You can get 2-3 sentinels for the cost of a vendie and can't lose all of them to one lucky shot (see point 1)

$0.02

Chimera_Calvin wrote:A couple of things on sentinel vs vendetta:

1. Its easier to find cover for a sentinel
2. If you play cityfight (or any dense terrain) its easier to place a sentinel
3. People generally ignore sentinels whilst screaming 'DIE *&£$%^&*' at vendies
4. You can get 2-3 sentinels for the cost of a vendie and can't lose all of them to one lucky shot (see point 1)

$0.02

If they're ignoring your sentinels, either they aren't dangerous enough to justify buying them, or they're shooting at your more-important stuff instead. It's a lose-lose situation. Any time you take a non-scoring unit that your opponent just doesn't feel they need to kill it means you haven't taken a good unit in that slot.

Sorry - wasn't quite clear with that point.

I was referring to the 'fear factor' that comes with the vendies reputation.

Gamers in general are well aware of the vendetta's capabilities (3x TL Lascannon on a fast skimmer is pretty obvious) and will often dedicate an inordinate amount of firepower to ensuring they get taken out ASAP.

Fewer gamers will see the same level of threat from Sentinels and will sometimes overlook them until it is too late.

Chimera_Calvin wrote:Sorry - wasn't quite clear with that point.

I was referring to the 'fear factor' that comes with the vendies reputation.

Gamers in general are well aware of the vendetta's capabilities (3x TL Lascannon on a fast skimmer is pretty obvious) and will often dedicate an inordinate amount of firepower to ensuring they get taken out ASAP.

Fewer gamers will see the same level of threat from Sentinels and will sometimes overlook them until it is too late.

Then you're not playing against very good opponents. Tactics discussions should really be about what to use against opponents with competent army lists of equal skill.

Since the advent of the Vendetta/Valk and the re-do of hellhounds (plus the addition of its varients), I find that the best uses of Sentinals are either a)paperweights or b)bitz for other converserions.

With the release of 5th ed, along with the much better FA choices available in the new dex, it is very hard to justiy fielding Sentinels.

Well, I use Sentinels mostly because they look cool. But squad of two scout sents is the most fragile thing i've ever seen. Very easy to penetrate, and they die on 3+. And it's not like 4+ cover will save a day.

On the other hand, one scout sentinel with HF needs to kill only 3 SM scouts to get it's money back. In games up to 1000, 40pts for sent is good investment.

Robin gave us a codex that has so many good options trying to figure out which to take is perhaps the most troublesome.

Trying to figure if you should use multiple CCS or a Lord Com. or Prim Psyker is tough.

Trying to decide between vet heavy, or go Combined Squad or just mount up PIS in chimeras...

And then you get to the really tough slots of Fast Attack and Heavy Support...

the only easy selections are in Elites, which is none for me, but other seem to like Marbo...

Alerian wrote:Since the advent of the Vendetta/Valk and the re-do of hellhounds (plus the addition of its varients), I find that the best uses of Sentinals are either a)paperweights or b)bitz for other converserions.

With the release of 5th ed, along with the much better FA choices available in the new dex, it is very hard to justiy fielding Sentinels.

Have you used them? I have already tried all the FA choices/variants (except the armoured sentinel, I like scout sentinels better). The valk/vendetta, all 3 dog variants, rough riders, and yes sentinels....and I find ALL are good, IF you use them in doing things they are supposed to do.

For me the justification for fielding any choice is if after using them the unit helped you win. And yes the sentinel has helped me win in several games (so have all the other choices)....not only in fun games BUT also in tournaments. The sentinel is extremely cheap and as long as does something that makes up it points back (and that is not difficult to do, even an immobilized/weapon destroyed result on an enemy vindicator is ace..the sentinel is just 35 pts cmon!)....

HOWEVER, even if I have said that the sentinel is not my first choice to fill in a FA slot. It is usually my last, but a still good last choice spent in most cases.

freddieyu1 wrote:

Alerian wrote:Since the advent of the Vendetta/Valk and the re-do of hellhounds (plus the addition of its varients), I find that the best uses of Sentinals are either a)paperweights or b)bitz for other converserions.

With the release of 5th ed, along with the much better FA choices available in the new dex, it is very hard to justiy fielding Sentinels.

Have you used them? I have already tried all the FA choices/variants (except the armoured sentinel, I like scout sentinels better). The valk/vendetta, all 3 dog variants, rough riders, and yes sentinels....and I find ALL are good, IF you use them in doing things they are supposed to do.

For me the justification for fielding any choice is if after using them the unit helped you win. And yes the sentinel has helped me win in several games (so have all the other choices)....not only in fun games BUT also in tournaments. The sentinel is extremely cheap and as long as does something that makes up it points back (and that is not difficult to do, even an immobilized/weapon destroyed result on an enemy vindicator is ace..the sentinel is just 35 pts cmon!)....

HOWEVER, even if I have said that the sentinel is not my first choice to fill in a FA slot. It is usually my last, but a still good last choice spent in most cases.

I have to say, this is classic... You question me for my opinion, then state that Sentinels are your last choice. Really? You felt the need to criticize my opinion that it is hard to justify using them, then tell everyone that they are your last choice for the slot...I mean c'mon

Yes, sentinels are cheap and can outflank, but they are also an easy KP. Worst of all, they take up a valuable FA slot. That is the real problem with them. They are a sub standard unit going up against 2 of the very best units in the entire game for the same FA slot, namely Vends and Hellhounds.

Honestly, the only place where a FA slot is better spent on a Sentinel than Vends/Hellhounds (varients included) is in small points games, where mobile firepower is still necessary but also where points are tight. If you are playing 1k or less games, then there is some merit to Sentinels, as they are cheap mobile gun platforms than can outflank and scout. In such a game the AC is usually the weapon of choice as it will be able to handle most vehicles that you will be seeing at low points games (especially against side armor). I would, however, always run them in pairs.

I think the thread is going a little off-topic. Clearly, a vend or a hellhound is superior to a sentinel. That is why they are 3x more expensive! Lets assume that the general is taking sentinels.... how do you use them?

No one answered me about the smoke - on the one hand, it seems like a good upgrade, for those turns when you may want to run. On the other, sents are all about cheap...

murdog wrote:No one answered me about the smoke - on the one hand, it seems like a good upgrade, for those turns when you may want to run. On the other, sents are all about cheap...

Smoke is a no go. Sure, 1 out of 20 games you may want it to run across the open to tie up that unit in Hth forever, but I think you nail it on the head, Scout sentinels are cheap, keep them that way. Armored Sentinels should be sitting in cover almost always, no smoke needed.

I personally run 3 scout sentinels with autocannons, just because they're so handy to outflank and just cause a mess in the backfield. Great for tying things up.

Alerian wrote:

freddieyu1 wrote:

Alerian wrote:Since the advent of the Vendetta/Valk and the re-do of hellhounds (plus the addition of its varients), I find that the best uses of Sentinals are either a)paperweights or b)bitz for other converserions.

With the release of 5th ed, along with the much better FA choices available in the new dex, it is very hard to justiy fielding Sentinels.

Have you used them? I have already tried all the FA choices/variants (except the armoured sentinel, I like scout sentinels better). The valk/vendetta, all 3 dog variants, rough riders, and yes sentinels....and I find ALL are good, IF you use them in doing things they are supposed to do.

For me the justification for fielding any choice is if after using them the unit helped you win. And yes the sentinel has helped me win in several games (so have all the other choices)....not only in fun games BUT also in tournaments. The sentinel is extremely cheap and as long as does something that makes up it points back (and that is not difficult to do, even an immobilized/weapon destroyed result on an enemy vindicator is ace..the sentinel is just 35 pts cmon!)....

HOWEVER, even if I have said that the sentinel is not my first choice to fill in a FA slot. It is usually my last, but a still good last choice spent in most cases.

I have to say, this is classic... You question me for my opinion, then state that Sentinels are your last choice. Really? You felt the need to criticize my opinion that it is hard to justify using them, then tell everyone that they are your last choice for the slot...I mean c'mon

Yes, sentinels are cheap and can outflank, but they are also an easy KP. Worst of all, they take up a valuable FA slot. That is the real problem with them. They are a sub standard unit going up against 2 of the very best units in the entire game for the same FA slot, namely Vends and Hellhounds.

Honestly, the only place where a FA slot is better spent on a Sentinel than Vends/Hellhounds (varients included) is in small points games, where mobile firepower is still necessary but also where points are tight. If you are playing 1k or less games, then there is some merit to Sentinels, as they are cheap mobile gun platforms than can outflank and scout. In such a game the AC is usually the weapon of choice as it will be able to handle most vehicles that you will be seeing at low points games (especially against side armor). I would, however, always run them in pairs.

Fellow guardsman...you still haven't answered the question...have you used them? I back up my opinions with actual experience, which I would like to share with all of you. Yes you are correct, they are not my first choice for my FA slot, but I also do not like spamming the same unit more than 2x, since I like variety in my lists. Hence I get to use sentinels even in 2000 pt games, WITH SUCCESS. And you mistake my answers as criticism rather than a healthy discussion. Why not try using them more for often for some variety? The IG codex is rich I would encourage you to try all the options, for fun's sake...Relax bro...no criticism intended...

Yes... I have used them... and no... I am not upset with you...lol

Here is my point...
In anything over 1k games, they are inferior when compared to your other FA slot choices. You have the points to use the better options, so don't fight with one hand tied behind your back. Vendettas are perhaps one of the most undercosted things in the Dex, and Hellhound varients are simply amazing for their price...why not use the better options if you have points?

If you want to use them for fun, then great. If you don't want to have the same unit used more than 2x, then that is up to you (although that means you can still fit in 2x vend squadrons, and a Hellhound unit .

My Answer was to the OP...
Tactically, I don't see any real use for them in higher point games. When you have the option to use better units, fielding an inferior one is NOT a sound tactical decision...ever.

In lower point games (1k and less), I like units of 2 with ACs to outflank and handle AT duty and pressure the flanks.

Alerian wrote:Yes... I have used them... and no... I am not upset with you...lol

Here is my point...
In anything over 1k games, they are inferior when compared to your other FA slot choices. You have the points to use the better options, so don't fight with one hand tied behind your back. Vendettas are perhaps one of the most undercosted things in the Dex, and Hellhound varients are simply amazing for their price...why not use the better options if you have points?

If you want to use them for fun, then great. If you don't want to have the same unit used more than 2x, then that is up to you (although that means you can still fit in 2x vend squadrons, and a Hellhound unit .

My Answer was to the OP...
Tactically, I don't see any real use for them in higher point games. When you have the option to use better units, fielding an inferior one is NOT a sound tactical decision...ever.

In lower point games (1k and less), I like units of 2 with ACs to outflank and handle AT duty and pressure the flanks.

hahaha ok cool! But you know when you say inferior you imply they have the same points cost, which is not the case as the sentinel is much cheaper. You personal preference is probably loading up the FA slots first with your beloved skimmers and dog tanks, and that is fine. For me, I prefer to load up on the troops and HS slots first, then finally fill out the remaining points using the FA and elites slots. This is why even at 2000 pts I run out of pts for 3 dog/skimmers. In such case I do not hesitate to use the sentinel as well RRs, since they work for me. Using these choices does not imply I am fighting with 1 hand behind my back. Far from it, since that means the points are used somewhere else in the list.

To illustrate my point, I posted a batrep on our local GT last November. Here I used a single scout sentinel, which proved to be irritating for several of my opponents...

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/267340.page