Adepticon 2010 Cheating and letting you deicide!

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**Dashofpepper**

I think that most cheating occurs because the opponent is unwilling to stop it.

**Black Blow Fly**

There was some teenager beside my table during the TT with a camera. I pulled his hat way down over his eyes, spun him round and pushed away from the table. He didn't come back for more.

G

**realgenius**

Dashofpepper wrote:I think that most cheating occurs because the opponent is unwilling to stop it.

I think that is one of the tools in the cheater's bag of tricks: keep cheating and arguing with your opponent until they get so frustrated they just give up and pray for the game to finish.

You see it a lot from the victims of cheating, quotes like "I was just so tired of him at that point, I let it go".

**Timmah**

Wow, you guys really get upset over people video taping your game at a public venue?

Nothing like attacking/being a jerk to someone for no reason.

**warboss**

Black Blow Fly wrote:***generic internet tough guy assault and battery story***

G

shouldn't that be "B" now?

**fullybakedbear**

1) It is not reasonable and in complete opposition to all historical data and statistics to assume that there are not people actively cheating at high level tournaments.

2) There is no reasonable assumption of privacy at these events. Even if someone would argue that a camera is invasive, what is to stop someone from taking specific notes including names, what they were wearing, physical descriptions, the number of times specific color of dice were used, how many times they used an over extended ruler to measure a shorter distance, etc. Has anyone checked the registration form and rules to see if there is specific mention?

I'm interested in seeing the video when I get home

**Timmah**

Frazzled wrote:

Its private property
It IS a private event.
I can and would have it stopped. What part of raging lawyer threatening to sue if you don't stop do you not get?

I am pretty sure you could call it news reporting or something. I am pretty sure you have no basis to sue on.

**Redbeard**

This is America, you don't need a basis to sue, it's a constitutionally protected right.

**kronk**

warboss wrote: public venue, not public property, is what i said. i agree that the owner/manager of the hotel has a right to stop the filming but not the individual being filmed. that person has the right to interupt their game, go get the management, and stop it.. thereby being docked points for slow play and sportmanship. either way, not really the point of this thread so i'll leave it be.

I'm being filmed against my wishes and my right to privacy.

I complain and put a stop to it.

I get penalized. I'm the jerk.

So if someone steals my land raider off the table and runs off with it and I chase him down, deal with security, get my stuff back, and return to the table, here is warboss's reaction:

"tsk, tsk. You wasted time away from the table, so you get a 0 in sportsmanship for stalling."

Wow.

Edit: I have no problem being filmed at an event, mind you, but I respect other's rights to privacy. If people are watching, they better keep their damned mouths shut, though.

**warboss**

kronk wrote:
thereby being docked points for slow play and sportmanship. either way, not really the point of this thread so i'll leave it be.

I'm being filmed against my wishes and my right to privacy.

I complain and put a stop to it.

I get penalized. I'm the jerk.

So if someone steals my land raider off the table and runs off with it and I chase him down, deal with security, get my stuff back, and return to the table, here is warboss's reaction:

"tsk, tsk. You wasted time away from the table, so you get a 0 in sportsmanship for stalling."

Wow.

internet hyperbole, automatic post fail. (or is that a simile... don't remember)

no, you wouldn't be docked because someone stealing your land raider has already disrupted the game and you are not at fault. also, a crime has been committed. the two situations have NOTHING in common. someone quietly videotaping a game from a respectable distance is neither a crime nor disruptive, unless you choose to make it so INSTEAD of playing the game you're in. frankly, i've never taped anyone's games (not even my own) so i'm not some internet paparazzi 40k crusader. i'm just playing the devil's advocate. if someone CHOOSES to delay my tournament game an excessive amount of time for a reason i deem trivial (like this) INSTEAD of playing the game, i would dock them. as frazzled said, I PAID TO PLAY, not to watch my opponent deal with drama they imagined up IMO while i sit there. if i were playing frazzled in a tourney and he objected to being videotaped and took a minute or two to convince/threaten/stare down/fart in the direction of the guy doing it, i wouldn't care. if he walked away from the table and spent the next 5-30 minutes dealing with this during the game (instead of after where it would be appropriate), i would dock him points.

**Blunt Force Trauma**

Timmah wrote:Wow, you guys really get upset over people video taping your game at a public venue?

.

Sure do. I hate kibitzers, onlookers, and people taping/talking about my games. Why tape? Are they playing? Did they ask for permission? Are they going to follow a player into the bathroom and tape that too? Please. I've nothing to hide but I do not want my face, persona, or likeness on the internet, blog or any other hack media site. Last thing I need is to be called out on BoK for some BS I didn't do and then be asked to defend myself. No thanks. I play fair no need to record unless you get my permission.

**kronk**

warboss wrote: if he walked away from the table and spent the next 5-30 minutes dealing with this during the game (instead of after where it would be appropriate), i would dock him points.

And that's bull.

I also payed my entry fee, hotel room fee, assembled and painted my army, play-tested, and everything else you did.

If someone is harrassing me, I am going to deal with it.

And that is not internet hyperbole.

It is 100% the same thing.

**Frazzled**

Black Blow Fly wrote:There was some teenager beside my table during the TT with a camera. I pulled his hat way down over his eyes, spun him round and pushed away from the table. He didn't come back for more.

G

Flinging angry wienie dogs works well too.

**Rube**

Without knowing what the guy's list was, I personally can't see any cheating in those vids. Sloppy gameplay isn't against the rules, but he should get his soft-scores slammed (which I believe is what happened? So no harm done).

This thread is pretty funny though! Only in America would you get people threatening physical assault and legal action because someone took pictures of them!

**Matthias**

Dashofpepper wrote:I think that most cheating occurs because the opponent is unwilling to stop it.

Absolutely and at a large event you have to be vigilant. Granted - not everyone has the same understanding/depth of the rules, but if you are participating in an event of this size (910 individual rounds of 40K) - you are expected to have some. AdeptiCon has been very clear on where it stands in regards to how to go about calling out questionable play:

Rules Disputes: Rules disputes are bound to occur at an event this large and varied in attendance. Players should attempt to resolve all rules disputes between themselves at the table (using the appropriate codex, rulebook, FAQ). If this fails, contact a Floor Judge who will attempt to resolve the dispute using the appropriate game system documents. In some extreme situations, a Floor Judge reserves the right to escalate issues to the Head Rules Judge (if the event has one) – his/her decision is final.

Cheating: Cheating will not be tolerated at AdeptiCon. Cheating affects the quality of the experience for all attendees and creates a significant disruption for event staff. Proof of cheating at AdeptiCon will lead to forfeiture of all scheduled events for the rest of the weekend and being placed on the banned list for all future AdeptiCons.
Players are expected to have a solid grasp of the rules and are responsible for challenging their opponent(s) when those rules are broken. If the players cannot come to a resolution, then the matter must be brought to the attention of a Floor Judge DURING the game. At that point the Floor Judge(s) will weigh the evidence and take appropriate action (which might result in anything from a warning to expulsion). Please remember, this is a complex game and honest mistakes are often made. Every attempt to resolve the issue should be made prior to calling over a Floor Judge (see Rules Disputes above). Claiming your opponent is cheating to simply influence the outcome of the game is cheating in and of itself.

Observing Games: As some of the larger tournaments enter the final rounds, it is often tempting to seek out and watch the ‘top tables’. Simply observing a game in progress is fine, but observers should NEVER interject their own commentary, rules interpretations or tactical advice to either player involved in the game.

After the fact, you no doubt will have a handful of people saying..."Yeah! He did this to me too!" The question is...why are you waiting til now to say something? A bunch of people that didn't even attend the event or the Internet is not going to remedy the abuses - you are. Speak up...it's why judges are there. Drumming up manufactured drama to drive up your blog hits or turning every event into a witch-hunt is not going to solve anything - in fact one can argue it is just as damaging to the community as cheating. People are a fools if they think this sort of stuff doesn't occur at almost every event and it is one of the major reasons true 'competitive' 40K is a long ways off.

**Frazzled**

Blunt Force Trauma wrote:
Timmah wrote:Wow, you guys really get upset over people video taping your game at a public venue?

.

Sure do. I hate kibitzers, onlookers, and people taping/talking about my games. Why tape? Are they playing? Did they ask for permission? Are they going to follow a player into the bathroom and tape that too? Please. I've nothing to hide but I do not want my face, persona, or likeness on the internet, blog or any other hack media site. Last thing I need is to be called out on BoK for some BS I didn't do and then be asked to defend myself. No thanks. I play fair no need to record unless you get my permission.

Exactly. I have no problem with bystanders if they are quiet however, except for "OOh AAhng". It is a tournament and they shouldn't be giving advice or commenting except for an orklike roll of dice etc.

**SPARKEYG**

Rube wrote:
This thread is pretty funny though! Only in America would you get people threatening physical assault and legal action because someone took pictures of them!

To take this thread even farther afield, many a German would threaten action (physical or legal) to stop you from unwanted video taping them. German likes them their privacy.

**Da Boss**

Good post Matthias.
Agreed on all points.

**Darkwynn**

Matthias wrote:
Dashofpepper wrote:I think that most cheating occurs because the opponent is unwilling to stop it.

Absolutely and at a large event you have to be vigilant. Granted - not everyone has the same understanding/depth of the rules, but if you are participating in an event of this size (910 individual rounds of 40K) - you are expected to have some. AdeptiCon has been very clear on where it stands in regards to how to go about calling out questionable play:

Rules Disputes: Rules disputes are bound to occur at an event this large and varied in attendance. Players should attempt to resolve all rules disputes between themselves at the table (using the appropriate codex, rulebook, FAQ). If this fails, contact a Floor Judge who will attempt to resolve the dispute using the appropriate game system documents. In some extreme situations, a Floor Judge reserves the right to escalate issues to the Head Rules Judge (if the event has one) – his/her decision is final.

Cheating: Cheating will not be tolerated at AdeptiCon. Cheating affects the quality of the experience for all attendees and creates a significant disruption for event staff. Proof of cheating at AdeptiCon will lead to forfeiture of all scheduled events for the rest of the weekend and being placed on the banned list for all future AdeptiCons.
Players are expected to have a solid grasp of the rules and are responsible for challenging their opponent(s) when those rules are broken. If the players cannot come to a resolution, then the matter must be brought to the attention of a Floor Judge DURING the game. At that point the Floor Judge(s) will weigh the evidence and take appropriate action (which might result in anything from a warning to expulsion). Please remember, this is a complex game and honest mistakes are often made. Every attempt to resolve the issue should be made prior to calling over a Floor Judge (see Rules Disputes above). Claiming your opponent is cheating to simply influence the outcome of the game is cheating in and of itself.

Observing Games: As some of the larger tournaments enter the final rounds, it is often tempting to seek out and watch the ‘top tables’. Simply observing a game in progress is fine, but observers should NEVER interject their own commentary, rules interpretations or tactical advice to either player involved in the game.

After the fact, you no doubt will have a handful of people saying..."Yeah! He did this to me too!" The question is...why are you waiting til now to say something? A bunch of people that didn't even attend the event or the Internet is not going to remedy the abuses - you are. Speak up...it's why judges are there. Drumming up manufactured drama to drive up your blog hits or turning every event into a witch-hunt is not going to solve anything - in fact one can argue it is just as damaging to the community as cheating. People are a fools if they think this sort of stuff doesn't occur at almost every event and it is one of the major reasons true 'competitive' 40K is a long ways off.

I agree Matt and I should have called the judge over before. It was my bad and my fault and I accepted that and early on I was giving him the benefit of the doubt. Last thing we need is this affecting the community in a damaging or negative way.

**Timmah**

Frazzled wrote:
Blunt Force Trauma wrote:
Timmah wrote:Wow, you guys really get upset over people video taping your game at a public venue?

.

Sure do. I hate kibitzers, onlookers, and people taping/talking about my games. Why tape? Are they playing? Did they ask for permission? Are they going to follow a player into the bathroom and tape that too? Please. I've nothing to hide but I do not want my face, persona, or likeness on the internet, blog or any other hack media site. Last thing I need is to be called out on BoK for some BS I didn't do and then be asked to defend myself. No thanks. I play fair no need to record unless you get my permission.

Exactly. I have no problem with bystanders if they are quiet however, except for "OOh AAhng". It is a tournament and they shouldn't be giving advice or commenting except for an orklike roll of dice etc.

Notice I did not say talking, I said taping. Taping a public game at a public venue is completely legal and completely different from your other situations.

If you go to a football game do you get mad if the stadium camera gets you in a group shot?

I do not need your permission to record your game. I might ask out of politeness, but there is nothing that says I have to get consent to tape it.

**kronk**

Matthias wrote:
After the fact, you no doubt will have a handful of people saying..."Yeah! He did this to me too!" The question is...why are you waiting til now to say something? A bunch of people that didn't even attend the event or the Internet is not going to remedy the abuses - you are. Speak up...it's why judges are there. Drumming up manufactured drama to drive up your blog hits or turning every event into a witch-hunt is not going to solve anything - in fact one can argue it is just as damaging to the community as cheating. People are a fools if they think this sort of stuff doesn't occur at almost every event and it is one of the major reasons true 'competitive' 40K is a long ways off.

Excellent point, Matthias. If you are unclear or uncertain, or if your opponent is doing something you know is wrong but you can't come to agreement, call in the TO. Right then and there and resolve it.

Edit: I'm assuming that you are the other person, Darkwynn? I'm sorry that you had a crappy experience at the tournament. I'm more sorry that you're in the middle of all of this. Both suck, man.

**GMMStudios**

Black Blow Fly wrote:There was some teenager beside my table during the TT with a camera. I pulled his hat way down over his eyes, spun him round and pushed away from the table. He didn't come back for more.

G

Ahaha I love you Steve.

Steven seagal of 40k, poppin caps in nerds lol.

**RiTides**

Video 1- He just didn't know the rule correctly it seemed... I agree that the opponent should have paused and looked it up. It's sour grapes to retroactively point out what those two surviving marines killed, if you don't verify the rule when it happened.

Video 2- It just looks like a sloppy way of moving the tank, as others have said. He should have moved it back to its original position and remeasured... but it clearly had enough movement to get where he put it. What's the big deal? I'm sure I've nudged models back after moving them, deciding I didn't want to put them that far after all... I'm not sure why you would label this as possible "cheating"? And it certainly didn't cost anyone the game...

Video 3- A big mistake, and people are right, he probably should have been disqualified. Unfortunately this just happend to me- in the Warhammer North American Tournament (which is no tournament at all, but one game played the last weekend of the month for three months, hosted by GW) I played against an illeagal army (5 units of censer bearers in skaven). I let the guy have the win, since it was a massacre, anyway. But it was disappointing to have someone make such a mistake in an official event. I'll check the army list from now!!!!

I think only the third video could be called cheating (and it clearly was) although perhaps it was a mistake. Either way, I think he should have been disqualified for that. The other two videos are just non-exemplary play... nothing to call cheating imho.

**Matthias**

Darkwynn wrote:I agree Matt and I should have called the judge over before. It was my bad and my fault and I accepted that and early on I was giving him the benefit of the doubt. Last thing we need is this affecting the community in a damaging or negative way.

Nick - I have no doubt this is not your intention - but it is a tool that WILL be used by others to prop up their listen-to-me-I-know-the-one-true-path-to-God way of approaching this hobby/game. I am all for calling out cheaters and AdeptiCon, as an event, has no tolerance for it - but the way it was dangled out there by BoK does a great disservice to the event and the 100+ volunteers that run the event and the thousands of hours people invest in planning and pulling this thing off. This is something that should have been handled at the table, by the players (at least one of whom is very competent) and the judges. It takes much, much more than throwing some terrain out on a few tables to make this happen. BoK's Crusade is 100% self-serving, I see no value in what he is doing and I take personal offense to the manner in which this was handled.

**Blunt Force Trauma**

Timmah wrote:

If you go to a football game do you get mad if the stadium camera gets you in a group shot?

I do not need your permission to record your game. I might ask out of politeness, but there is nothing that says I have to get consent to tape it.

That is different. I respect people's right to privacy. If attending an event like that (football game) where I am an onlooker and not the participant, then no, I don't care. But to be video taped without consent, no you'll need to ask me my permission or I'll be buying the "reporter" a new camera if it came to that. And it is just plain courteous to ask.

**Frazzled**

Timmah wrote:
Frazzled wrote:
Blunt Force Trauma wrote:
Timmah wrote:Wow, you guys really get upset over people video taping your game at a public venue?

.

Sure do. I hate kibitzers, onlookers, and people taping/talking about my games. Why tape? Are they playing? Did they ask for permission? Are they going to follow a player into the bathroom and tape that too? Please. I've nothing to hide but I do not want my face, persona, or likeness on the internet, blog or any other hack media site. Last thing I need is to be called out on BoK for some BS I didn't do and then be asked to defend myself. No thanks. I play fair no need to record unless you get my permission.

Exactly. I have no problem with bystanders if they are quiet however, except for "OOh AAhng". It is a tournament and they shouldn't be giving advice or commenting except for an orklike roll of dice etc.

Notice I did not say talking, I said taping. Taping a public game at a public venue is completely legal and completely different from your other situations.

If you go to a football game do you get mad if the stadium camera gets you in a group shot?

I do not need your permission to record your game. I might ask out of politeness, but there is nothing that says I have to get consent to tape it.

Kid its private property and a private event. I can sue you for sport. I say this not in happiness-I'm on the receiving end of it.

**Redbeard**

Matthias wrote:
After the fact, you no doubt will have a handful of people saying..."Yeah! He did this to me too!" The question is...why are you waiting til now to say something?

As I stated somewhere else, the reason people don't say things at the time is that they often don't realize there's anything funny going on at the time. When I play games, I give people the benefit of the doubt. Perhaps that's a bad habit on my part. My opponent hands me his list, I glance at it, but for the most part, I trust his models to be WYSIWYG, because those are the rules for the event, and that's how I play. If someone had an extra missile in there, I probably wouldn't catch it until after the event when I was collecting my thoughts and typing in their list as I was writing a battle report. If someone forgot to take a weird codex-specific test, I might not realize they had to until I recounted what happened to a friend after the game who then mentioned that such a test was part of the rule. You can catch people on some stuff at the time, and correct it on the spot, but most players, in my experience, only really know a few codexes front-to-back, and have to trust their opponents on the others. I think the quiz results from Adepticon back that view too.

It would be nice if we could just play games without feeling that we have to be hyper-vigilant, but I know that it's unrealistic to expect judges to catch stuff in advance at smaller events, and doubly-so at large events. That doesn't mean the event isn't good or even that the judges aren't good. It might mean that some people need to win their toy soldier games a little too much... It's a lot to ask any given player to keep track of everything an opponent does with an unfamiliar codex within a 2-hour game.

**Timmah**

Frazzled wrote:
Timmah wrote:
Frazzled wrote:
Blunt Force Trauma wrote:
Timmah wrote:Wow, you guys really get upset over people video taping your game at a public venue?

.

Sure do. I hate kibitzers, onlookers, and people taping/talking about my games. Why tape? Are they playing? Did they ask for permission? Are they going to follow a player into the bathroom and tape that too? Please. I've nothing to hide but I do not want my face, persona, or likeness on the internet, blog or any other hack media site. Last thing I need is to be called out on BoK for some BS I didn't do and then be asked to defend myself. No thanks. I play fair no need to record unless you get my permission.

Exactly. I have no problem with bystanders if they are quiet however, except for "OOh AAhng". It is a tournament and they shouldn't be giving advice or commenting except for an orklike roll of dice etc.

Notice I did not say talking, I said taping. Taping a public game at a public venue is completely legal and completely different from your other situations.

If you go to a football game do you get mad if the stadium camera gets you in a group shot?

I do not need your permission to record your game. I might ask out of politeness, but there is nothing that says I have to get consent to tape it.

Kid its private property and a private event. I can sue you for sport. I say this not in happiness-I'm on the receiving end of it.

Son, it is a public venue that allowed cameras into it. Meaning its fair game to do any sort of video reporting you want as long as its not for a profit.

**kronk**

Redbeard wrote:
As I stated somewhere else, the reason people don't say things at the time is that they often don't realize there's anything funny going on at the time. When I play games, I give people the benefit of the doubt. Perhaps that's a bad habit on my part.

I see it as two different things, redbeard.

Being unfamiliar with an army and being told: yeah, my ____ has a 4+ inv save when he doesn't is one thing. In this case, yes the guy is a d-bag. Finding out after the game, your only recorse is to tell the TO so that he can prevent the player from pulling it in future games. It doesn't take away from you getting screwed, but it might help the next guy.

Being familiar with a rule and knowing the guy is breaking it, intentionally or otherwise, is a separate issue. Yes, this need to be resolved ASAP. If the two of you can't talk it out, or after reading the rules you interpret them differently, you should call the TO right then to resolve it. Complaining afterwards to the TO won't take away from you getting screwed and may help the next guy, but getting a ruling from the TO might save your butt the game.

After a full weekend of gaming, I can see fatigue or whatever setting in and just not giving a damn at that point. So I wouldn't begrudge anyone that just said "whatever, man" and let it go. Nor can I say that I wouldn't do the same. We're only human, right?

**Darkwynn**

Matthias wrote:
Darkwynn wrote:I agree Matt and I should have called the judge over before. It was my bad and my fault and I accepted that and early on I was giving him the benefit of the doubt. Last thing we need is this affecting the community in a damaging or negative way.

Nick - I have no doubt this is not your intention - but it is a tool that WILL be used by others to prop up their listen-to-me-I-know-the-one-true-path-to-God way of approaching this hobby/game. I am all for calling out cheaters and AdeptiCon, as an event, has no tolerance for it - but the way it was dangled out there by BoK does a great disservice to the event and the 100+ volunteers that run the event and the thousands of hours people invest in planning and pulling this thing off. This is something that should have been handled at the table, by the players (at least one of whom is very competent) and the judges. It takes much, much more than throwing some terrain out on a few tables to make this happen. BoK's Crusade is 100% self-serving, I see no value in what he is doing and I take personal offense to the manner in which this was handled.

I agree Matt for most part but as head judge even at BolsCon but this type of cheating is impossible to catch by the staff and I don't view you guys at fault by any means if anything its mine. Personal, I think people should take the focus off Adepticon its not their fault and there is a lot of people who put time and energy into this event and its one of the best. If there wasn't a video tape though no one would have caught him in this game or pass games or him having multiple list at each table from my understanding as other previous opponents have brought up. As a side note i don't think BoK is going off attacking Adepticon or trying to persecute you guys by the way as you did everything right and one run of the best events. I think he just wants to put the focus on the player that was in issue and probably call me out for being stupid on not reporting it.

Besides you guys have the best event out there right now and some of the best judges along with your self Joe, and Dave you guys are awesome. It has happened we need to move on, recognize the player, know we still have a great event , bring more people to Adepticon reinforce that hey if people brought this up it would have been handled correctly and would have been disqualified. the burden of Blame goes to me and that is it. lets look forward to next year and grow it to 2500 people.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

kronk wrote:

After a full weekend of gaming, I can see fatigue or whatever setting in and just not giving a damn at that point. So I wouldn't begrudge anyone that just said "whatever, man" and let it go. Nor can I say that I wouldn't do the same. We're only human, right?

you hit it on the spot for me Kronk, It was the last game of the day on 3 hours of sleep and I went whatever, lets just finish the game and move on. I want to go play the poker game and obviously he wanted the game more then I did. Plus I already had won a thunderhawk to cuddle up to on my way home.