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generalgrog wrote:...if you look at what I typed I clearly suggested that the ork IG should have the models modedeled with a theme. For example: shootas = lasguns, big shooats = heavy bolters, lobbas = mortars, kannons = lascannons, zapp guns = autocannons, rokkit launchas = missile launchers, wierd boys = psykers....

Actually, I wasn't aiming at you when I typed above.
The theme you're talking about is akin to my fielding:
boyz =gray hunters
grots = scouts
meganobs = termies
dreadnought converted to deff dread w/proper weapons = Bjorn
LandRaider = LandRaider

Never seen such complaining, at the LGS or on dakka when I brought it up about how "confusing" I had made the army and how screwed up I hadn't bought duplicate Space Marines (I also field SMs) to properly play.

privateer4hire wrote:

generalgrog wrote:...if you look at what I typed I clearly suggested that the ork IG should have the models modedeled with a theme. For example: shootas = lasguns, big shooats = heavy bolters, lobbas = mortars, kannons = lascannons, zapp guns = autocannons, rokkit launchas = missile launchers, wierd boys = psykers....

Actually, I wasn't aiming at you when I typed above.
The theme you're talking about is akin to my fielding:
boyz =gray hunters
grots = scouts
meganobs = termies
dreadnought converted to deff dread w/proper weapons = Bjorn
LandRaider = LandRaider

Never seen such complaining, at the LGS or on dakka when I brought it up about how "confusing" I had made the army and how screwed up I hadn't bought duplicate Space Marines (I also field SMs) to properly play.

But... these are Proxies. Proxies are fine with opponent's permission but are not welcome at most events. If you show up at a tourney with a stock grot and he is supposed to be a T4 scout with a sniper rifle, your models will not be allowed because they are proxies and not even close to WYSIWYG...

Now if you actually convert your models that the Grot has the appropriate weapons, and armor save and other gear along with the rest of the army then the rule of 'counts as' kicks in. The better your models look and the more effort put into the conversion, the more people accept them.

Sounds like some Ork players have 'everymarine' envy and want to codexhop with all thier smurf-owning buddies. Such is life when playing Xenos... Play your army or realize you are using 'proxies' which many people dislike and are totally unwelcome at most events.

generalgrog wrote:

ph34r wrote:If your friends don't care, then there is no problem, and why bother asking us?

Because this is a tournament forum, and I was curious what the consensus of tourney players were about using this in a tourney environment?

GG

In a tournament situation, if I was the TO I would not allow it unless your orks all had the appropriate wargear modeled, with converted IG vehicles, and models having the correct weapons. If I was your opponent I would wonder how your counts as army got in.
Basically, if your army is IG enough to the point that it can't be used as orks, then I'd be fine with it as IG. No double army though, there's just no way that it will look clear or correct enough for 2 armies at once.

ph34r wrote:

generalgrog wrote:

ph34r wrote:If your friends don't care, then there is no problem, and why bother asking us?

Because this is a tournament forum, and I was curious what the consensus of tourney players were about using this in a tourney environment?

GG

In a tournament situation, if I was the TO I would not allow it unless your orks all had the appropriate wargear modeled, with converted IG vehicles, and models having the correct weapons. If I was your opponent I would wonder how your counts as army got in.
Basically, if your army is IG enough to the point that it can't be used as orks, then I'd be fine with it as IG. No double army though, there's just no way that it will look clear or correct enough for 2 armies at once.

Actually an orkified loota list might look excellent.
Lootify imperial vehicles with ork paint and ork junk for an innovative loota look army wide. I'm envisioning Leman tanks with an ork head sticking out the front/ork paintjob, the usual. Minor ork conversions to help or additionally diversify. A sentinel with a normal leg and an ork defdred leg or other kitbash, that sort of thing. It scould be epic. A few big orky conversions could work too. I big kitbashed Ork fighta bomb type instead of a Valkrie for example (but with WYSIWYG weaponry).

Additionally, instead of orks, it could be grots, which would go well to representing guard stats, their reliance on range weaponry, and their greater prowess with better looted imperial tech.

Frazzled wrote:Actually an orkified loota list might look excellent.
Lootify imperial vehicles with ork paint and ork junk for an innovative loota look army wide. I'm envisioning Leman tanks with an ork head sticking out the front/ork paintjob, the usual. Minor ork conversions to help or additionally diversify. A sentinel with a normal leg and an ork defdred leg or other kitbash, that sort of thing. It scould be epic. A few big orky conversions could work too. I big kitbashed Ork fighta bomb type instead of a Valkrie for example (but with WYSIWYG weaponry).

Additionally, instead of orks, it could be grots, which would go well to representing guard stats, their reliance on range weaponry, and their greater prowess with better looted imperial tech.

agreed, but what you're listing isn't what the OP is suggesting. he wants to take the army he just played as orks the day before with no conversions and play them as stock IG. see that ork trukk with only ork bits? that's a chimera. see that nob with a power claw? he's an infantry squad veteran sergeant. i'm all for converted armies and even proxies that make sense (heck, my "tyranid" army uses all horrorclix aliens) in friendly games but not in tournies. there are too many potential hassles in a tourney setting to have to worry about an army where NOTHING is WYSIWIG and no effort has been made to even try.

warboss wrote:

Frazzled wrote:Actually an orkified loota list might look excellent.
Lootify imperial vehicles with ork paint and ork junk for an innovative loota look army wide. I'm envisioning Leman tanks with an ork head sticking out the front/ork paintjob, the usual. Minor ork conversions to help or additionally diversify. A sentinel with a normal leg and an ork defdred leg or other kitbash, that sort of thing. It scould be epic. A few big orky conversions could work too. I big kitbashed Ork fighta bomb type instead of a Valkrie for example (but with WYSIWYG weaponry).

Additionally, instead of orks, it could be grots, which would go well to representing guard stats, their reliance on range weaponry, and their greater prowess with better looted imperial tech.

agreed, but what you're listing isn't what the OP is suggesting. he wants to take the army he just played as orks the day before with no conversions and play them as stock IG. see that ork trukk with only ork bits? that's a chimera. see that nob with a power claw? he's an infantry squad veteran sergeant. i'm all for converted armies and even proxies that make sense (heck, my "tyranid" army uses all horrorclix aliens) in friendly games but not in tournies. there are too many potential hassles in a tourney setting to have to worry about an army where NOTHING is WYSIWIG and no effort has been made to even try.

Ayah further agreed. Free gaming - go for it. Tourney? No, it doesn't especially work.

When we run tournaments we allow some counts as with the understanding that if your opponent objects to your non WYSIWYG you take an automatic loss.

With that said we have never ever had anyone complain about a counts as. And we usually run 20 table tournaments.

We've also had some strange things on the table, like Space Wolves on Eldar Jet Bikes counting as TWC.

warboss wrote:
agreed, but what you're listing isn't what the OP is suggesting. he wants to take the army he just played as orks the day before with no conversions and play them as stock IG. see that ork trukk with only ork bits? that's a chimera. see that nob with a power claw? he's an infantry squad veteran sergeant. i'm all for converted armies and even proxies that make sense (heck, my "tyranid" army uses all horrorclix aliens) in friendly games but not in tournies. there are too many potential hassles in a tourney setting to have to worry about an army where NOTHING is WYSIWIG and no effort has been made to even try.

Uhhhh....No...that's not at all what I said. Please go back and read my posts again. I never suggested using trukks as chimeras, or nobs with powerklaws as seargents. Although, if the seargents did have access to powerfists, I don't see why that would be a problem.

The only thing I suggested was to say that shootas "counts as" las guns. Big shootas "counts as" as heavy bolters, Kannons "counts as" las cannons", Zzaap guns "counts as" auto cannons, Lobbas "counts as" mortars, Rokkit launchas, "counts as", missile lanchers, burnas "counts as" flamers. Plasma and melta guns, you would probably have to use guard bits for that. I also said that the ork heavy weapons squads would have to be modeled on a similar base as an IG heavy weapon team, with 2 orks manning it.

I really don't think what I suggested is all that OUT there, and I believe some of the reaction is just pure kneejerk.

GG

Actually, I'd be pretty ok with that. Vehicles should generally be IG vehicles though.

generalgrog wrote:

warboss wrote:
agreed, but what you're listing isn't what the OP is suggesting. he wants to take the army he just played as orks the day before with no conversions and play them as stock IG. see that ork trukk with only ork bits? that's a chimera. see that nob with a power claw? he's an infantry squad veteran sergeant. i'm all for converted armies and even proxies that make sense (heck, my "tyranid" army uses all horrorclix aliens) in friendly games but not in tournies. there are too many potential hassles in a tourney setting to have to worry about an army where NOTHING is WYSIWIG and no effort has been made to even try.

Uhhhh....No...that's not at all what I said. Please go back and read my posts again. I never suggested using trukks as chimeras, or nobs with powerklaws as seargents. Although, if the seargents did have access to powerfists, I don't see why that would be a problem.

The only thing I suggested was to say that shootas "counts as" las guns. Big shootas "counts as" as heavy bolters, Kannons "counts as" las cannons", Zzaap guns "counts as" auto cannons, Lobbas "counts as" mortars, Rokkit launchas, "counts as", missile lanchers, burnas "counts as" flamers. Plasma and melta guns, you would probably have to use guard bits for that. I also said that the ork heavy weapons squads would have to be modeled on a similar base as an IG heavy weapon team, with 2 orks manning it.

I really don't think what I suggested is all that OUT there, and I believe some of the reaction is just pure kneejerk.

GG

the thread is now a full two pages. i suggest you reread the thread and mentally tally the opinions as your original question has been answered in this thread. a significant portion of people (and an easy majority in this thread) could have a problem with you using an unmodified ork army as IG in a tournament. if you went through the time, effort, and cost to use IG bits and heavily convert your models, most people wouldn't have a problem with it but there is no guarantee that it would be allowed. as for "pure kneejerk" reactions, that is exactly the type you'll encounter in a tournament as you'll be playing people who don't know you personally and are not familiar with what you "count as" stuff. for instance, if i were playing an ork player in a friendly game who was trying out the army as IG, i would assume the zzap gun to be a lascannon simply because they are both long barrelled energy weapons as opposed to ones that fire kinetic bullets while you have them as autocannons. what seems like a common sense counts as in your opinion can make no sense to others. either way, good luck with your army.

warboss wrote:the thread is now a full two pages. i suggest you reread the thread and mentally tally the opinions as your original question has been answered in this thread. a significant portion of people (and an easy majority in this thread) could have a problem with you using an unmodified ork army as IG in a tournament. if you went through the time, effort, and cost to use IG bits and heavily convert your models, most people wouldn't have a problem with it but there is no guarantee that it would be allowed. as for "pure kneejerk" reactions, that is exactly the type you'll encounter in a tournament as you'll be playing people who don't know you personally and are not familiar with what you "count as" stuff. for instance, if i were playing an ork player in a friendly game who was trying out the army as IG, i would assume the zzap gun to be a lascannon simply because they are both long barrelled energy weapons as opposed to ones that fire kinetic bullets while you have them as autocannons. what seems like a common sense counts as in your opinion can make no sense to others. either way, good luck with your army.

I call this the "I made a mistake and won't admit it, so I'll resort to squirming and attacking a straw man" post.

You made the claim that I was trying to "counts as" trukks as chimeras.........WRONG.

You don't even have the common courtesy to apologize for your blatant mistake.

The very first post (in this very thread) talked about using looted leman russ's and chimeras, no where do I mention using trukks as chimeras.

Anyway, there are a few people that posted that wouldn't mind, there are a few people that make reasoned arguments as to why they wouldn't like it, and then there are people like warboss who have kneejerked.

GG

Allright. This has been asked and answered and is getting flamy. Shutting down now.