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@I grappled the shoggoth

The rule set was updated too quickly after their release and they didnt fit the new rules too well is all

what do you mean? they didnt fit 4th edition well?

They were okay...definitely better than now...but they were made for 3rd.

Sanctjud wrote:Control is not something you always have and it's a game of resource management rather than the processes normal armies go through.

Warhammer 40k is a game of resource management...

It seems to me that the random style of play that the demon list has is probably keeping people away from it. I have seen demon armies basically lose on turn one when their deep strike goes horribly wrong and they get the wrong wave. I have also seen them land their preferred wave in exactly the spot they were aiming for and proceed to steam roller the other army. The point I am trying to make here is that the demon army is so random that I think it must be difficult, or at least intimidating, to play. There is always going to be a random element to a game like 40k but I think the demon codex takes it to a whole new level. I am also in agreement with the posters who cited the cost of metal armies as a potential problem and fall into the camp that demons should be a part of the CSM book and not separate. To be fair, I have never personally run a demon list so I may be totally off the mark here.

ductvader wrote:They were okay...definitely better than now...but they were made for 3rd.

Eye of terror campaign was during 3rd edition though.

I also beleiv part of what turns people off to the army is nearly the entire army is lead. Unless you run S. Grinders, deamonettes, or bloodletters as the mainstay of the army, its lotsa lead to clean, lotsa lead to put together and pin, and lotsa lead to buy.

Fiends are an awesome unit, but 6 of them is around $120.00 retail. Thats about $.60 a point. A unit of Blood crushers say ...5 of them is 200 points and costs about $150.00 retail. Thats $.75 a point, add in the options of icons, instument etc... and it goes down to $.60 a point. Not all units are this bad, the Greater Deamons are a bit better but as a whole the army is exspensive, and a pain to put together and transport IMO.

Now most people building armies may not consider this and they may just buy units here and there and have an army, but I notice a lot of deamon builds online people post " I have these units....what kind of list can I build?" because they dont want to go out and buy 10 Bloodcrushers or 15 Screamers.

Armies like marines and Orks are a little more forgiving on the pocketbook, and since they are plastic, it is easier to customize or swap bitz to create Nobz, Devastators, Burna Boyz etc..

I think many of the other reasons: randomness, hard time with mech, are good but I think cost and majority lead are the real deterants.

@Nurglitch:
Forgive me I was not clear with my last post, I had meant you have less to work with 100% of the time, where-as other armies can choose to be at 100% on the board.

So for daemons players they have to manage less at the start all the time compared to most other armies.

Sanctjud wrote:@Nurglitch:
Forgive me I was not clear with my last post, I had meant you have less to work with 100% of the time, where-as other armies can choose to be at 100% on the board.

So for daemons players they have to manage less at the start all the time compared to most other armies.

Much of the difficulty in Chaos Daemons is figuring out what to send down in the first wave. As Sanctjud states above Chaos Daemon players only get around half of their units on the board right away. This is a problem in itself just deciding what is going to hit the ground first. If its to weak it will be shot or assaulted before it ever gets to move. If you put your big players on the board to soon there is a risk they will be focused down too fast, especially if units dont come on turn 2. And this is all assuming they got their preferred wave. If they dont get their preferred wave then a backup plan must be in place and some very creative thinking must be used in deployment. I lost a lot of my first games using Chaos Daemons because i couldnt find what worked for me in the first wave.

I think a properly planned list is far more important to a chaos daemons player as it is to other lists.

I love my Daemons.They are such a fun list to play.Yeah they arre random in deepstriking but thats what seperates you as a good tactic player.You should be able to plan for the worse.If it goes wrong there should be a plan B and with Daemons it is important.
The fluff for them is awesome and the characters can set up for some interesting combos.
As for taking on vehicles:has anyone read the codex,we have
Keeper of Secrets,Bloodthirster,Lord of Change for that with brutal cc attacks plus as MC they have 2d6 on the armour penertration table.We have BoT which is S8 ap1.We have Screamers which are pretty much flying melta bombs.Soul Grinders in cc or shooting can tear a tank apart.Daemon Princes tailored for vehicle killing are deadly.
They have beautifull models and look awesome on the table when painted.
People dont play them because they are a challenge to play but so are all armies(apart from space marines)to play when you first start.People would rather play it safe with space marines as they are good at everything.
Daemons are hard to start with but once you get through the learning curve they are an amazing army to use.

I think composition scored events keep people away from deamons... as soon as you bring blood crushers you get a bad score...

Daemon Dave:

Plan B is great and all, but the Daemon list is not one that can recover from the loss of initiative.

Fluff is both awesome and poo really as some of those awesome combos spits on old fluff...arguably the better fluff.

Keeper of Secrets,Bloodthirster,Lord of Change for that with brutal cc attacks plus as MC they have 2d6 on the armour penertration table.

Except they have to get into combat, which could fail due to cover...they hit worse than normal should the vehicle move or even need 6's without the help of warp time, and there is a limited effective supply of them.

We have BoT which is S8 ap1.

Whoop-di-friggin-do...it's expensive, it's a single shot, and lacks the melta rule for something that looks so similar.

We have Screamers which are pretty much flying melta bombs.

Again...whoop-di-do. They have poor cost/stat/role ratios...and needs to hit things that are either 4+ or 6+ and DEMAND to have BLoS terrain to hide behind in the initial deepstrike with a tank within 18" of it.

Soul Grinders in cc or shooting can tear a tank apart.

Great stuff. Only issues is you can only rely on Target Saturation and not armor Saturation. That anti-tank shot is a poor single shot lower than MEQ BS...while combat has the same issues as the MCs.

Daemon Princes tailored for vehicle killing are deadly.

As said of the MCs above, Princes get expensive for the 'basics'...if one runs without them tailoring is expensive...all for a glass cannon.

/shrug...at the very least they don't appeal to me.

I think one big issue with the daemon book is the lack of easy to purchase mobility for mid/late game. Other than MCs that fly and the previously mentioned fiends, there isn't much that can react quickly to an objective grab or the like. Sometimes you get lucky and a killy unit stays in reserves for a while, but if you roll in all your demons turns 2-3, you are very vulnerable. This makes placement and tactics very important, and I think the learning curve ends up being rather steep for most folks.

Beyond that, the Skittles of Chaos fluff of the book is kind of disappointing. Everyone I know who gets excited about the army wants to play a mono list, or at least one that respects the old fluff of Sacred Numbers and ancient enemies, and the new book just doesn't lend itself.

I play Daemons for two reasons:

1st I got 5k in daemons free from GW (YAY 'Ard Boyz!!!)

2nd they are challanging to run. You are not only dealing with your opponent, but also the random element of your army. The latter has only really hurt my once as I have been able to compensate for it the rest of the time. Oddly enough I have yet to lose a game in which I got my NONpreffered wave.

Now alot of the negatives people are putting up are true. They are a pricey army, I think I tallied the stuff GW sent me at around $1200-1400. They also have a steep learning curve. Out of the half a dozen players at my FLGS that started daemon armies, I think only 2 or 3 of us have been successfull with them. Mine have been extremely successful, winning one event so far an placing in the top 3 in the remainder. Alot of them had issues with mech and weren't willing/able to work their lists to deal with it. As I side note, I have yet to have a problem with multi land raider lists.

Its an army that plays completely differently from everything else out there and that can be hard for some people to get their heads around.

Daemons don't play like any other army. I'm still of the opinion that a properly constructed Daemons army is one of the strongest armies in the game.

People shy away from them mainly because of the randomness factor...you don't know what's coming in, when its coming in, or where it's coming in. Of course, that works against both sides...and a canny player can use that uncertainty itself as a weapon.

Really, your *best* AT is massed Fiends of Slaanesh.

MagicJuggler wrote:Really, your *best* AT is massed Fiends of Slaanesh.

Fiends are great AT, especially against skimmers, but can fall flat against MEQ if the rends don't come (mine often get beat up by tac squads in cover :( ). Thats why I prefer a mixed approach. As elites I run Crushers, fiends, and flamers and have had great success. Against mech my tzeentch heralds on chariots, grinders with tongue and daemon prince with bolt have been aces. The fiends, crushers, and blood thirster have just been icing on the tank busting cake.

Mass Fiends work against anything short of Land Raiders, which Daemons effectively fold against, for the melta-weapons that Marines most likely *do* have now have a very obvious target if you bring the Grinders.

MagicJuggler wrote:Mass Fiends work against anything short of Land Raiders, which Daemons effectively fold against, for the melta-weapons that Marines most likely *do* have now have a very obvious target if you bring the Grinders.

Yeah but they can bite it against almost any unit with any sort of cc ability in cover (mine have gone down to long fangs in woods). And any sort of massed shooting can take them out quickly. I need more depth out of my elite units in a competitive list.

MagicJuggler wrote:Mass Fiends work against anything short of Land Raiders, which Daemons effectively fold against, for the melta-weapons that Marines most likely *do* have now have a very obvious target if you bring the Grinders.

Landraiders are not that big of a deal. At least not for me. I run with 4 winged monsterous creatures. When i fight landraiders, they run scared. But there is a simple enough solution to those who dont run Daemonzilla lists. Since a landraider is really only a threat due to what it carries, simply coax the soliders inside out of the landraider. Once that is killed a landraider posses little threat.

The list has a bit of a learning curve, and first time players against daemons usually end up leaving the game getting pasted unless they've put some thought into the matchup. This can lead to people having unpleasant memories of the army in general.

I also think it's because the Daemons aren't really "iconic" as an army. Since they were just split off they just don't have the feel. The high price of lead, and lack of mini's means lots of converting, which leads you to more veteran players playing the army.

I wont deny they can be hard to play and it is a pain if you dont get your wave you wanted to go in first. When i said you need a plan b i ment if you get the wave you didn't want when you roll. That is why some have balanced halves, just incase. I personally love this army. I have played several games and yes lost some but you learn from those losses. To be fair on the at front. Most time land raiders aren't a problem as most space marine players dont normally use more than one in a 2k game. and im more concerned about a squad of leman russes.Yeah princes can cost alot. But if you work out what you want it to do then that will keep the cost down.

I agree with the comments about how the book was a slap in the face to CSM players. The 4th ed Chaos Codex was broken but was waaay more characterful.
Daemons were one of the elements which distinguished CSMS from loyalist Marines. The two armies played very differently. After that loss, it just made the army more vanilla. It was a blast to play the 4th ed. chaos list with Plague Marines, Plague Bearers, and a Great Unclean One all in one list. It makes sense from a fluff perspective.

The new list emphasizes mixed daemon armies, which can be cool, but often just seems silly. That and I think about half of the models are terrible.

mrwittwer wrote:

MagicJuggler wrote:Mass Fiends work against anything short of Land Raiders, which Daemons effectively fold against, for the melta-weapons that Marines most likely *do* have now have a very obvious target if you bring the Grinders.

Landraiders are not that big of a deal. At least not for me. I run with 4 winged monsterous creatures. When i fight landraiders, they run scared. But there is a simple enough solution to those who dont run Daemonzilla lists. Since a landraider is really only a threat due to what it carries, simply coax the soliders inside out of the landraider. Once that is killed a landraider posses little threat.

At 2000 points, if I see a Land Raider, I expect to see two, either of the Crusader or Redeemer variety. They carry Thunder Hammer+Storm Shield Terminators, and either Vulkan, a Null Zone Librarian, or both. Add some Speeders, and either Razorbacks/Rhinos trailing behind them, and it gets mean really quickly.

I don't mind skittles.
I just wish for the days of animosity, offsetting the practicality of candy-bagging.

MagicJuggler wrote:

mrwittwer wrote:

MagicJuggler wrote:Mass Fiends work against anything short of Land Raiders, which Daemons effectively fold against, for the melta-weapons that Marines most likely *do* have now have a very obvious target if you bring the Grinders.

Landraiders are not that big of a deal. At least not for me. I run with 4 winged monsterous creatures. When i fight landraiders, they run scared. But there is a simple enough solution to those who dont run Daemonzilla lists. Since a landraider is really only a threat due to what it carries, simply coax the soliders inside out of the landraider. Once that is killed a landraider posses little threat.

At 2000 points, if I see a Land Raider, I expect to see two, either of the Crusader or Redeemer variety. They carry Thunder Hammer+Storm Shield Terminators, and either Vulkan, a Null Zone Librarian, or both. Add some Speeders, and either Razorbacks/Rhinos trailing behind them, and it gets mean really quickly.

But you also have to remember at 2000 points, i can easily fit 3 Daemon Princes, a Bloodthirster, and Fateweaver. A squad of TH/SS vs Bloodthirster and within range of Fateweaver. Bloodthirster hits on 3's, Termies hit on 5's both wound on 2's. I have re-rollable 4++, they have 3++. It does get mean quick, but everything balances out fairly evenly. Its really about tactics and who can use their army better. Chaos daemons have the advantage since they are so unpredictable, it makes it hard for your opponent to know what he himself is going to do, much less what i am going to do.

KingCracker wrote:I know for me personally, I think Demons should stay in Fantasy. They dont have a place in 40k. In a Chaos list MAYBE. But thats just me

Theyre a staple faction of 40k. I dont think they should have their own book (they should be with CSM), but to say they have no place at all is just silly in my opinion.

Belphegor wrote:I don't mind skittles.
I just wish for the days of animosity, offsetting the practicality of candy-bagging.

Put in a benefit to having a single flavor, and you can put animosity back in.

"Here's the different forces of Chaos. Now pick one fourth that you'll never, ever be able to use." Yeah, that'll sell figures.

Deamons are expensive, thus you just are not going to see any lower income players taking deamons.

If you choose Nurgle or Tzeentch then plaguebearers and horrors are expensive metal models.

If you choose Khorne or Slaanesh then fiends and bloodcrushers are expensive models.

schadenfreude wrote:Deamons are expensive, thus you just are not going to see any lower income players taking deamons.

If you choose Nurgle or Tzeentch then plaguebearers and horrors are expensive metal models.

If you choose Khorne or Slaanesh then fiends and bloodcrushers are expensive models.

You gotta get creative! Gors make great plaguebearers and dryads make awesome pink horrors. For fiends I bought a box goblin spider riders, cut the heads off the spiders and add damonotte torsos/heads/arms to make spider centaurs. 10 Fiends for $50

For Blood Crushers I bet Chaos Knights might fit the bill.

Im just not a big fan of people not getting to play what they want cause of $$$.