Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I want to have that Iron Warrior's Dreadnought babies.

You do know what "generic" actually means, right?

Each of those has iconography and tooling that is VERY Legion specific.

The Chaos Star surrounding an Eye of Horus is unique to Black Legion, the stahlhelm styled head of the second is VERY unique to the Death Guard, the grilled knight style helm is specific to Iron Warriors, etc.

You cannot really make a "generic" Chaos Dreadnought. Each Legion has very specific stylings that mean the kit would have to be on par with the Chaos Terminator Lord kit in terms of accessories--but on a far bigger scale.

LunaHound wrote:

Point B) Almost every single one of the Space Marine Dreads have been the same same thing, just slightly retooled to be a new kit.

Ya! which is why Chaos players are disgruntled! Glad you just proved our point!

LOL QFT!

This being said, it’s an age old problem with an easy solution. I think the main cause and this can apply to any outdated models or armies (like DE), is that GW in the last few years has become too rapped up in releasing easy dollar/quick profit MEQ releases. In my opinion, 5-10 years ago there wasn't nearly as much GW/SM hate as there is now.

candy.man wrote:

LunaHound wrote:Same thing could be done with chaos. Not able to make a passable generic chaos dread is BS You can keep telling yourself that.

Point B) Almost every single one of the Space Marine Dreads have been the same same thing, just slightly retooled to be a new kit.

Ya! which is why Chaos players are disgruntled! Glad you just proved our point!

LOL QFT!

This being said, it’s an age old problem with an easy solution. I think the main cause and this can apply to any outdated models or armies (like DE), is that GW in the last few years has become too rapped up in releasing easy dollar/quick profit MEQ releases. In my opinion, 5-10 years ago there wasn't nearly as much GW/SM hate as there is now.

Uh no.

There's no way to create a passable generic Chaos Dreadnought that will be something other than the SM kit with a Chaos vehicle sprue. No matter how it ended up being done--there'd be complaints from Chaos players that "<Insert Specific Legion/God Here> GET ALL THE LOVE WTF!".

The Legions are too vastly different in terms of their design styles, and would require a huge plastic kit--or a single base kit and then them creating God/Legion specific upgrade sprues.

Kanluwen:

I think she's referring to the fact that the Chaos Dreadnoughts shown are all MkIV, with similar. I gotta admit that close combat chainfist is pretty ugly and flimsy looking, but the fact that it's the only one available is what she's getting it, if I understand correctly.

Consider such a kit: Give it a right arm supporting Twin-Linked Heavy Bolters, Twin-Linked Autocannons, or Missile Launchers, and a left arm with Twin-Linked Autocannons, 2x Close Combat Weapons, and Heavy Flamer/Twin-Linked Bolter mount. Then add nine heads, and some religion-specific iconography in similar mounts to the Venerable Dreadnought (and interchangeable), dual stacks like a MkV, and feet with defined toes and heel and you'd have a kit that crowns the whole plastic Space Marine Dreadnought line.

Kanluwen wrote:
Uh no.

There's no way to create a passable generic Chaos Dreadnought that will be something other than the SM kit with a Chaos vehicle sprue. No matter how it ended up being done--there'd be complaints from Chaos players that "<Insert Specific Legion/God Here> GET ALL THE LOVE WTF!".

The Legions are too vastly different in terms of their design styles, and would require a huge plastic kit--or a single base kit and then them creating God/Legion specific upgrade sprues.

Kanluwen wrote:You do know what "generic" actually means, right?

Each of those has iconography and tooling that is VERY Legion specific.

The Chaos Star surrounding an Eye of Horus is unique to Black Legion, the stahlhelm styled head of the second is VERY unique to the Death Guard, the grilled knight style helm is specific to Iron Warriors, etc.

You cannot really make a "generic" Chaos Dreadnought. Each Legion has very specific stylings that mean the kit would have to be on par with the Chaos Terminator Lord kit in terms of accessories--but on a far bigger scale.

Here kanluwen , just do me a favor this once. Can you use paint or photoshop and circle all the icons you are talking about that you see in those photos
to why they arnt generic?

Thanks

Luna:

I don't have to, because it's not hard to spot them at all.

The Eye of Horus on the Black Legion Dread is Legion specific. The head on the Iron Warriors dread--Legion specific. Head, scrolls, and flame motif on Word Bearers Dreadnought is the same, as is the World Eaters iconography surrounding the head--and the head itself. The Death Guard/Nurgle Dread is iffy because they've moved from "just" Death Guard having the specific T slit helms.

So, that pretty much defeats the purpose of a generic Chaos Dreadnought because pretty much every army has very specific iconography or motifs(Alpha Legion/Night Lords' usage of captured Imperial tech, Word Bearers extensive use of enslaved Daemons, Black Legions being incredibly uniform in their iconography/colors, etc).


But again, you knew that since you're trying to argue that "WELL DUH YOU CAN JUST HAVE DIFFERENT CHESTPLATES FOR ALL THE DIFFERENT CHAPTERS!" is a viable solution so that you can have a "generic" Chaos Dreadnought.

Which again...kind of defeats the purpose of a "generic" Chaos Dreadnought.

Nurglitch:
But that's not the point of what she's been trying to argue, this entire thread.

Having a Chaos Dreadnought with all the options to make a Legion specific vehicle? Fine and dandy. That does not make it generic however.

However, no matter what it will just end up being for the most part a Space Marine Dread with spikes.

So why the hell would GW waste production time on it when there are bits and pieces on the standard Chaos Vehicle Sprue that can easily be fitted onto a plastic SM Dread?

Or when Forge World has a complete line of God/Legion specific Dreadnoughts--including an Emperor's Children Sonic Dreadnought(which would pretty much be wasted space on a "generic" Chaos Dread sprue).

If GW were to release a chaos dread, they wouldn't need to represent all the legions. They would just need to include a few extra chaos icons/heads to represent the different chaos gods and chaos undivided. Through painting, decals and optional coversions could the legions be easilly represented.

I think the main focus would be for GW to release a chaos plastic kit with a good selection of weapons, sprues and chaos icons.

Kanluwen:

By your logic GW would have never produced the Venerable Dreadnought. That kit doesn't have the level or variety of detail that the Forge World kits have, and doesn't have their cool feet either. Indeed, it doesn't even have the weapons to enable Space Marine Dreadnoughts to be armed with unconverted plastic.

And yet it exists.

Similarly I believe we can expect a Chaos Dreadnought according to the lines I suggested. After all, a Chaos Space Marine squad exists that can be adjusted to reflect their religious beliefs. It'll just take time.

Kanluwen wrote:Luna:

I don't have to, because it's not hard to spot them at all.

Just do it for the sake of making sure we are on the same page and talking about same thing?
Pick one of them then , sure the chaos star and eye of horus one ur talking about.

candy.man wrote:If GW were to release a chaos dread, they wouldn't need to represent all the legions. They would just need to include a few extra chaos icons/heads to represent the different chaos gods and chaos undivided. Through painting, decals and optional conversions could the legions be easily represented.

I think the main focus would be for GW to release a chaos plastic kit with a good selection of weapons, sprues and chaos icons.

And you just proved my entire point.

Chaos players don't even understand what would be required for their own bloody Legions to be differentiated from standard Cult troops/equipment.

Again:
Iconography is what make the Legions stand apart from any Cult troops that might be accompanying them.

An actual Thousand Sons Dreadnought from the Heresy would be completely different from a Tzeentechian-dedicated Dreadnought that's in the service of the Black Legion, or an Alpha Legion Dreadnought devoted to Khorne, etc.

It all comes down to the fact that each Legion has a very different visual style compared to the other.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

LunaHound wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Luna:

I don't have to, because it's not hard to spot them at all.

Just do it for the sake of making sure we are on the same page and talking about same thing?
Pick one of them then , sure the chaos star and eye of horus one ur talking about.

Do it yourself.

Look at the Black Legion Dreadnought. See that MASSIVE icon to the left of the head? That's the Eye of Horus. It's a Black Legion specific symbol.

Honestly, I'd fork over the extra cash for a Iron Warrior only dready, you only need 2 or 3 anyways.

Now onto the plastic kit. I don't think it would be much if they even made it probably would just be a loyalist one with spikes anyways lol. GW is way too busy making more loyalist sets and they SAY their updating the Dark Eldar.

Their not a simple army and point being Chaos has to wait I bet a few years yet before a update and thats the only way I'd see more models for chaos coming.

Also what ever became of the plastic Daemon Prince?

Nurglitch wrote:Kanluwen:

By your logic GW would have never produced the Venerable Dreadnought. That kit doesn't have the level or variety of detail that the Forge World kits have, and doesn't have their cool feet either. Indeed, it doesn't even have the weapons to enable Space Marine Dreadnoughts to be armed with unconverted plastic.

And yet it exists.

Similarly I believe we can expect a Chaos Dreadnought according to the lines I suggested. After all, a Chaos Space Marine squad exists that can be adjusted to reflect their religious beliefs. It'll just take time.

I never said that there was a good reason for what GW's done with the SM line-up, now have I?

The Venerable Dreadnought was done the way it was, as far as I know, to create a setup that prevented too much abuse of standard Dreadnoughts suddenly becoming Venerables.

Kanluwen wrote:
Do it yourself.

i would if i know what you are talking about.

Why cant you just do me a favor and take 15 seconds in paint and circle the parts you are talking about?

@Shadowbrand
In Australia, it is cheapr to get a FW dread then a GW dread which is crazy. The Iron Warrior dread looks the best and I had a conversion idea for it a while back. As for where the plastic daemon prince is, I don't know. I've put my DP plans on hold until GW release it as I am quite fond of the kit and the idea behind it. I would like to think that any chaos plastic dread kit would be as good in terms of the variety of options as the vulnerable kit.

@Kanluwen
You've diverted so far from the point of this thread that you fail.

So Kanluwen, would it be accurate to say that you're asking for Legion-specific Dreadnought despite the lack of Legion-specific rules? Seems pretty unreasonable.

Likewise your point about the Venerable Dreadnought being made so that ordinary Dreadnoughts couldn't be easily converted, so long as boxes of Dreadnoughts were sold it wouldn't matter, and besides the greater variety of weapons would have put the box in greater demand, particularly if there was less duplication.

Nurglitch wrote:So Kanluwen, would it be accurate to say that you're asking for Legion-specific Dreadnought despite the lack of Legion-specific rules? Seems pretty unreasonable.

Likewise your point about the Venerable Dreadnought being made so that ordinary Dreadnoughts couldn't be easily converted, so long as boxes of Dreadnoughts were sold it wouldn't matter, and besides the greater variety of weapons would have put the box in greater demand, particularly if there was less duplication.

Completely reasonable, actually, given with how certain Legions are advertised as the flagship Legions/forces of certain Gods.

I've yet to see a Tzeentchian force that doesn't incorporate something that could be construed as similar to the Thousand Sons, likewise with Death Guard/The Purge etc.

So why not just deity-specific options with a hint of Legion?

LunaHound wrote:All of those are generic minus the chest armor plate , which is pointless to use that to argue.
Because look at Venerable dread , remember how we have so many variation to the armor plates?

Kanluwen wrote:You do know what "generic" actually means, right?

Each of those has iconography and tooling that is VERY Legion specific.

The Chaos Star surrounding an Eye of Horus is unique to Black Legion, the stahlhelm styled head of the second is VERY unique to the Death Guard, the grilled knight style helm is specific to Iron Warriors, etc.

You cannot really make a "generic" Chaos Dreadnought. Each Legion has very specific stylings that mean the kit would have to be on par with the Chaos Terminator Lord kit in terms of accessories--but on a far bigger scale.

Generic?



What legion are these guys sculpted for?


Why do you assume they have to belong to a legion? Does SM Ven dread have specific chapter?

Kanluwen wrote:Buck up, save your pennies and get a Forge World dread. Failing that--put some time and effort into converting the "standard" Marine Dreadnought.

This is the 2nd time you made an insulting comment regarding subject of me not able to afford things ,
I dont think its wise , because you never know when i'll suddenly ask you to compare our bank account to see if you should say such things.

Nurglitch wrote:So why not just deity-specific options with a hint of Legion?

Probably because not every deity is specific to a Legion.

It would be a bit of a fluff faux pas to have a World Eaters Dreadnought in an Alpha Legion/Night Lords force--but the reverse(a Night Lords Dreadnought bearing the Mark of Khorne or sigils denoting worship of a Chaos Deity) isn't true.

That's part of the problem with the Chaos forces, speaking purely from a fluff identification/stickler for cohesion across the army standpoint.

It's something that, as it stands, is irking the hell out of my dad while working on his Red Corsairs force.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I should also add, Nurglitch, that it's a bit easier to do a "generic" Space Marine kit just because overall they seem to use the same standard plans for building things like Dreadnoughts, Servitors, etc.

Chaos doesn't. They've got things like Fabius Bile and the Dark Mechanicus who're in charge of all their wacky crap.

Clearly a diety-specific Dreadnought would include non-aligned as well as ecumenical. If you want Legion specific, then simply paint Legion-symbols. Much like your can also paint warband-specific or chapter-specific symbols. The affiliation to a specific diety is far more essential to the fluff, and to the rules, than any particular warband.

As for the comment that Chaos Space Marines don't use standard patterns like the Imperium, the kits posted by Lunahound put the lie to that. If you want specialised stuff to fit your conception of the fluff, then the onus should be on your to convert. The basic kit should be generic, particularly since the rules themselves are generic. There's no point in producing a Dreadnought with sonic weapons, for example, as no sonic weapons are available for Dreadnoughts.

I mean, maybe you think what you're asking is reasonable, but you seem to have no understanding why the Space Marine Dreadnoughts were produced the way they were, why the current Chaos Space Marine line is the way it is, and what sort of approach GW would take with a plastic Chaos Dreadnought as a consequence.

Yep , the dred can be generically scupted the same way every other Chaos kits are made. They certainly dont need any legion specific icons to look like chaos. Though of course just like the SM counter part, such icon and extra armor piece can easily be included.

Nurglitch wrote:Clearly a diety-specific Dreadnought would include non-aligned as well as ecumenical. If you want Legion specific, then simply paint Legion-symbols. Much like your can also paint warband-specific or chapter-specific symbols. The affiliation to a specific diety is far more essential to the fluff, and to the rules, than any particular warband.

As for the comment that Chaos Space Marines don't use standard patterns like the Imperium, the kits posted by Lunahound put the lie to that. If you want specialised stuff to fit your conception of the fluff, then the onus should be on your to convert. The basic kit should be generic, particularly since the rules themselves are generic. There's no point in producing a Dreadnought with sonic weapons, for example, as no sonic weapons are available for Dreadnoughts.

I mean, maybe you think what you're asking is reasonable, but you seem to have no understanding why the Space Marine Dreadnoughts were produced the way they were, why the current Chaos Space Marine line is the way it is, and what sort of approach GW would take with a plastic Chaos Dreadnought as a consequence.

Except it's not something as simple as painted symbols that make things Legion specific.

Word Bearers, for example, tend towards having leering daemonic faces and corrupt texts adorning their vehicles and equipment.
Thousand Sons tend towards making very baroque designs, Black Legion tends to have more advanced or better crafted vehicles and equipment, Alpha Legion tend towards making their stuff look as anonymous or close to their Loyalist counterparts as possible for their infiltration missions, etc.

And no, actually, it really doesn't "put the lie to that" in regards to their kits. Chaos' stuff, historically, is supposed to be flavorful and uniquely crafted for each design. No two Dreadnoughts are supposed to be similar in regards to Chaos, unless they were built pre-Heresy or were empty husks scavenged/stolen from the Loyalists and corrupted.

They have no STCs to work from and the Dark Mechanicus building the things are said to be constantly altering the blueprints for their Dreadnought designs.

As for why the current Space Marine Dreadnoughts were produced the way they were?
Simple: They're made to be something that has a very recognizable profile, across all Space Marine armies. A Space Marine Dreadnought is recognizable as a Dreadnought, no matter what Chapter is fielding it.

The only differences come from when the Forge World Venerable Dreadnoughts are introduced to the equation, and even then they're still similar enough that you can look at it and say "Oh, that's a Dreadnought! But it looks fancier and has specific iconography...so he must be using Dark Angels, and has a Venerable Dread!" or when comparing a "standard" Dreadnought to a Venerable or an Ironclad.

If GW were to do a kit much like the SM venerable for CSMs, it would make all the difference, to be honest.

A few drop-in plates for stylistic adjustment, and a few different heads and covers for the sarcophogus, and a couple of accessory sprues (preferably designed for the dread) and suddenly, voila, you've got one fething amazing kit for CSM players. It's not that difficult to put together, honestly, and they've already done it for the loyalists...

Why can't we get our psychotic dreadnoughts?

Kanluwen wrote:And no, actually, it really doesn't "put the lie to that" in regards to their kits. Chaos' stuff, historically, is supposed to be flavorful and uniquely crafted for each design. No two Dreadnoughts are supposed to be similar in regards to Chaos

Other than the chest and the head i beg to differ

Dronze wrote:If GW were to do a kit much like the SM venerable for CSMs, it would make all the difference, to be honest.

A few drop-in plates for stylistic adjustment, and a few different heads and covers for the sarcophogus, and a couple of accessory sprues (preferably designed for the dread) and suddenly, voila, you've got one fething amazing kit for CSM players. It's not that difficult to put together, honestly, and they've already done it for the loyalists...

Why can't we get our psychotic dreadnoughts?

Because supposedly , if we have money we are supposed to buy FW ones ,
and if we dont have money we glue moar spikes on.

Dont ask me how that works but thats what they say.

Kanluwen:

Sorry for the massive edit if you've already posted, but I just re-read my post and realized you were arguing that a plastic Chaos Dreadnought can't be released because of your idiosyncratic reading of the background, a reading that Forgeworld's own line of resin Dreadnoughts disagrees with. The fact is that GW has not yet produced a Chaos Dreadnought because they have had more commercially viable kits further down the release pipeline. So they can't produce a kit to produce the variety of Chaos Dreadnoughts that you seem to believe is somehow necessary, so? They aren't going to produce your magical wish-list kid, they're going to produce something along the lines of the Possessed, Death Company, Sanguinary Guard, or Space Wolf sprues: something that's either cross-compatible with other popular kits or is just a couple of upgrade sprues for existing models. I'm hoping for the former, but given the design of the Venerable Dreadnought, a kit consisting entirely of God and Legion specific knick-knacks and including the weapons that aren't found in the other kits seems more likely.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Dronze:

I'd bet you dollars to donuts that they already have a kit that's cross-compatible with the Space Marine Dreadnought kits in the design phase if not in the pipeline for release.

Something good to keep in mind is that GW isn't restricting releases to simply roll-outs with the associated Codex like it used to, but also maintaining a continual 'drip' of releases. We may not have a wait for a new Codex to see a new Dreadnought kit.

I think we'll see a plastic chaos dread (or at least a new dread kit) when we see a new chaos codex. I don't see why they would release a new csm model until then.

As to the question of whether or not they could do a dread kit that could be given enough extra parts to convert it to something viable for each legion? I think it is definitely possible. We have some incredible plastic model kits for chaos atm. The terminator lord is a prime example of this.

I think a basic chaos dread kit would be possible with options that would be both chaos-y without making it too specific so as to alienate other legions. Head swap bits, swappable plastic legion icons, hooved feet, swappable chest plates with varying degrees of chaos gifts/mutation, etc. All possible and even likely with the current level of detail/options given in our chaos plastic kits. They could also offer additional customization kits for each of the legions (or just a few kits with multiple legion options, ie 1 for the 4 god cult legions, another for the rest).

They may not have something that represents every little aspect of every legion, but I'd be damn happy to get something like that and I don't see any of it as impossible or undoable when we look at the new plastic kits for blood angels/space wolves and our 4th edition kits.

candy.man wrote:In my opinion, while conversions can make a CSM converted SM dreadnaught presentable, it feels more like a spiky marine dreadnaught.

It takes stuff extensive conversion work, chaotic symbols, sprues and greenstuff to make a SM dread a true CSM dread.

Forge worlds dreadnaughts in my opinion are used as a measuring stick for a Chaos dread.

A Chaos Dread *is* a spiky marine dreadnaught

Actually, it just needs a bunch of spikes.

Then you have to use the FW Loyalist Dreads as the measuring stick for Loyalist Dreads, too. Against which, the plastic Dreads fall woefully short.
____

LunaHound wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:@OP: You can't add spikes to a plastic SM Dread?

Because thats an insult to Chaos players. That we are to buy loyalist kits and just add MOAR SPIKEYS

The point is , GW made so much effort on SM variants ( sure SM is their flag faction ) but just give Chaos player a stupid plastic dread.

Ultramarine: Make them some laurel bits
Blood Angel: Make them some blood drops
Black Templar: Make them some Cross
Dark Angels: Give them some winged sword.

Huh? I repeat myself above: A Chaos Dread *is* nothing more than a spiky marine dreadnaught!

What effort? The Ironclad is a joke, and the Venerable apes the stupid FW design. Both are utter crap, aside from some of the bitz. I'd be ashamed to own either one of them.

I've played since 2E, and my metal UM Dread has a Roman-styled Eagle, not a laurel. The BT don't get a Templar Cross version, but the SW do get something with Viking bitz sculpted on.

And, for the record, prior to 4E, the Chaos Dread contained 3 guns and 3 CCWs. So, bitz-wise, you got your money's worth.

Nurglitch wrote:I want to have that Iron Warrior's Dreadnought babies.

Got one, it's purty.



I have both bought a FW dread and converted a SM dread. I am happy with both of them but woudl still like to see a plastic chaos dread kit.

Or even, as stated above somewhere, a "bitz" kit with dread specific chaos bits would be fine. We could use that to effectively convert the Sm dread. As it stands there are options on the chaos dread that we simply cant get without resorting to forgeworl (Tl autocannon for example).

At what point is it supposed to be economically feasible for GW to release a dreadnought kit with the fourteen different iconographies? Or to release fourteen different plastic upgrade kits?

Because to do the chaos dreadnought decently you would need to provide customization options for not only the nine different legions, but also five generic options for the four different gods and undivided.