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Except weapons and armor. Which always must be modeled.

How many models would you say need to have CC weapons in a Chaos Marines squad then?

Or because they are secondary, they don't need to be modeled?

All of them, technically.

That being said,..."Weapons like chainswords, rifle butts, combat blades, bayonets..." all count as CCW according to the BRB. I imagine Bolters are a kind of rifle.

(P42, BRB)

my philosophy regarding WYSIWYG is consistency. If I model something as a certain weapon, then I have to maintain consistent throughout. So, in other words, I can model eldar starcannons using shuriken cannons, but that means that every shuriken cannon in my army has to be a starcannon...

I'm counting on most people sharing that philosophy with me this sunday. I'm taking a pair of falcons as a pair of fire prisms... To be fair, the way the falcon is modeled is unique (weapons speaking) so it COULD be a prism cannon. Who is to say, there are no other pulse lasers/EML bits in my army.

chaos0xomega wrote:my philosophy regarding WYSIWYG is consistency. If I model something as a certain weapon, then I have to maintain consistent throughout. So, in other words, I can model eldar starcannons using shuriken cannons, but that means that every shuriken cannon in my army has to be a starcannon...

I'm counting on most people sharing that philosophy with me this sunday. I'm taking a pair of falcons as a pair of fire prisms... To be fair, the way the falcon is modeled is unique (weapons speaking) so it COULD be a prism cannon. Who is to say, there are no other pulse lasers/EML bits in my army.

I want to take 9 kannons... But I only have 3 kannons, but I have plenty of Lobbas and Zzap guns. So I will just take whatever models I willy nilly feel like and say 'Hey opponent, anything that is a big gun is a kannon, got it?'

Of course, that is not WYSIWYG, but WYSIWYG doesn't apply for me because I don't have the models I want to use and I still want to play. It is ok in a competitive environment to burden my opponent with remembering what all my models are supposed to be. It is not like he can actually do anything about it being there is no sportsmanship scores right?

It is a slippery slope which just simply isn't fair. Everyone knows the rules are WYSIWYG and showing up to expect to play even though you know you planned to use proxies just isn't fair.

nkelsch wrote:
It is a slippery slope which just simply isn't fair. Everyone knows the rules are WYSIWYG and showing up to expect to play even though you know you planned to use proxies just isn't fair.

And they kinda are the only rule when it comes to appearance.

No paint, no basing, no theme. Just have the right WYSIWYG. It's black and white in the packet.

And yet, I guarantee I'm going to have to ask someone what X is this weekend.

nkelsch wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:my philosophy regarding WYSIWYG is consistency. If I model something as a certain weapon, then I have to maintain consistent throughout. So, in other words, I can model eldar starcannons using shuriken cannons, but that means that every shuriken cannon in my army has to be a starcannon...

I'm counting on most people sharing that philosophy with me this sunday. I'm taking a pair of falcons as a pair of fire prisms... To be fair, the way the falcon is modeled is unique (weapons speaking) so it COULD be a prism cannon. Who is to say, there are no other pulse lasers/EML bits in my army.

I want to take 9 kannons... But I only have 3 kannons, but I have plenty of Lobbas and Zzap guns. So I will just take whatever models I willy nilly feel like and say 'Hey opponent, anything that is a big gun is a kannon, got it?'

Of course, that is not WYSIWYG, but WYSIWYG doesn't apply for me because I don't have the models I want to use and I still want to play. It is ok in a competitive environment to burden my opponent with remembering what all my models are supposed to be. It is not like he can actually do anything about it being there is no sportsmanship scores right?

It is a slippery slope which just simply isn't fair. Everyone knows the rules are WYSIWYG and showing up to expect to play even though you know you planned to use proxies just isn't fair.

heres the difference: all my fire prisms look identical.

Your kannons are not the same as the lobbas are not the same as the zzap guns. In fact, they are all rather different and cannot really approximate one another. Thats not wysiwyg/counts-as. Thats proxy.

In the case of my falcons, their design was intentional. From the very beginning they were set up to approximate a falcon or a fire prism, and were designed with that in mind.

chaos0xomega wrote:

heres the difference: all my fire prisms look identical.

Your kannons are not the same as the lobbas are not the same as the zzap guns. In fact, they are all rather different and cannot really approximate one another. Thats not wysiwyg/counts-as. Thats proxy.

Frankly, your example isn't 'counts as' either. It is just proxy as well. Call a spade a spade.

I can come up with 9 zzap gunz, but 9 zzap guns suck squigpoo game-wize... So by your logic, if I have 9 Zzap guns, I rightfully have 9 of any big gun I feel like and I can call it 'counts as' and force it upon opponents.

You are showing up with a Proxy, knowing it is a Proxy and going to expect to be allowed to play... You don't know the meaning of the term 'counts as'.

chaos0xomega wrote:In the case of my falcons, their design was intentional. From the very beginning they were set up to approximate a falcon or a fire prism, and were designed with that in mind.

Hang on, I can see the beginnings of an argument over a misunderstanding here.

To clarify: Are your skimmers built as Falcons which you intend to instead use as Fire Prisms, or are they skimmers with a converted weapon loadout which doesn't perfectly fit either and can quite reasonably fit both? For example, a unique gun which there are currently no rules for and which you can simply say "This gun is a Prism Cannon"?

Because if it's the former, it's no-go. If it's the latter, then it's a conversion and most TOs - but not all, necessarily - will generally allow it.

I run my space marines with two different codexs and never had a problem. I run them under both the normal SM codex and the BA codex. I swap out the special weapons and my elite and heavy support selections change but I've never had a problem with it.

Aelyn wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:In the case of my falcons, their design was intentional. From the very beginning they were set up to approximate a falcon or a fire prism, and were designed with that in mind.

Hang on, I can see the beginnings of an argument over a misunderstanding here.

To clarify: Are your skimmers built as Falcons which you intend to instead use as Fire Prisms, or are they skimmers with a converted weapon loadout which doesn't perfectly fit either and can quite reasonably fit both? For example, a unique gun which there are currently no rules for and which you can simply say "This gun is a Prism Cannon"?

Because if it's the former, it's no-go. If it's the latter, then it's a conversion and most TOs - but not all, necessarily - will generally allow it.

QFT.

I am gonna model every big gun in my army to look like a large-barreled, kannon that has a Zzappy car battery attached that looks like it can pivot on the mount to indirectly 'lob' a round at the enemy. It can possibly shoot a kannon round, possibly belch electricity and possibly Lob ammo. Who are you to say it can't? Then because my weapon is so ambiguous I am always WYSIWYG.

A Falcon with a custom gun that cannot be confused for anything *BUT* a fireprism is cool, but an ambiguous 'everygun' that means you can 'count as' any of the weapons from a fireprism to all of the options for a falcon is shenanigans.