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GW Price Rise Thread 1:

Ostrakon rushes to their defence.

GW Price Rise Thread 2:

Ostrakon rushes their their defence.

Mantic Games announces no price rise in a humorous manner:

Ostrakon rushes to GW's defence.



There's a reason I keep using the word 'apologist'.

Nice, nice. Now, if only they could produce minis I'd actually want to buy, I'll be all happy.

Though I guess buying a few sprues of skellies won't hurt, right?

His Master's Voice wrote:Nice, nice. Now, if only they could produce minis I'd actually want to buy, I'll be all happy.

Though I guess buying a few sprues of skellies won't hurt, right?

Worth getting just for scenery/base decorating I think.

H.B.M.C. wrote:GW Price Rise Thread 1:

Ostrakon rushes to their defence.

GW Price Rise Thread 2:

Ostrakon rushes their their defence.

Mantic Games announces no price rise in a humorous manner:

Ostrakon rushes to GW's defence.



There's a reason I keep using the word 'apologist'.

Actually three Price Rise Threads and this one, he's a busy chap and I hope GW sends him some freebies for his valiant effort.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/293921.page

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/294431.page

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/294640.page

Better an apologist than a hysteric. It's not so much that I'm pro-GW, only that I'm against people who are offensively illogical.

I have nothing against Mantic, and if I ever start a VC army I'll be using their skeletons over GW's. Not because of price, either: Mantic has put out a much better product than GW in regards to plastic skeletons.

But this little ad of theirs is kind of stupid, and it's playing to a crowd of ignorant reactionaries. I mean, they're gaking on a company without whom they would not have a market for plastic minis.

Ostrakon wrote:But this little ad of theirs is kind of stupid, and it's playing to a crowd of ignorant reactionaries. I mean, they're gaking on a company without whom they would not have a market for plastic minis.

Not that I particularly care but this last statement is an erroneous assumption on your part. You see, GW uses "Heroic" 28mm scale versus nearly every other manufacturer, including Mantic, who all use true 28mm. What this means is that there is a visual difference between GW models and Mantic's line. Let's start a list of all the fantasy game systems (or any size for that matter); I've bolded GW's contributions and please note this is hardly and exhaustive list and was taken from Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_miniature_wargames#Fantasy)

A Fistfull of Miniatures (North Shore Press, 1986; Precis Intermedia Gaming, 2009)
Aminouch! (Camberley Area Wargames Society (CAWS), 1995)
Archworld (Fantasy Games Unlimited, 1977) [16]
Armies of Arcana (Thanes Games, 1997) [16]
Battle of Five Armies (Games Workshop, 2001)
Battlestorm (Ral Partha Publishing, 1997) [16]
Bellicose Fantasy Battles (Sanity Studios, 2009)
Blood Bowl (Games Workshop, 1987) [17]
Celtos (Brigade Models, 2002)
Citadel (Fantasy Games Unlimited, unknown)
Confrontation (Rackham, 2000) [18]
Dungeons & Dragons Miniatures (Wizards of the Coast, 2003)
Dwarf Wars (West Wind Productions, unknown)
Fairy Meat (Kenzer & Company, 2000)
Fantasy Warlord (Folio Works, 1990) [16]
Fantasy Rules! 2nd Ed (Chipco)
Fantasy Warriors (Grenadier Miniatures UK, 1990) [16]
For the Masses (Majestic Twelve Games, 2004)
HAVOC: Tactical Miniature Warfare (Voodoo Ink Publishing/Brent Spivey, 2009)
HeroClix (Superhero) (WizKids, 2002)
Heroscape (Hasbro/Wizards of the Coast, 2004)
HORDES (Privateer Press, 2006)
Knights and Magick (Heritage) 1980
Hordes of the Things (Wargames Research Group, 1991) [16]
Legions Unleashed (Tactical Command Games, 1983, 1996)
Lord of the Rings Strategy Battle Game (Games Workshop, 2005)
Mage Knight (WizKids, 2001)
Malifaux (Wyrd Miniatures, LLC, 2005 ) [17]
Middle Earth Wargame Rules (Decalset, 1976)
Mighty Armies (Mongoose Publishing, 2004)
Mordheim (Games Workshop, 1999)
Occult Wars (Stealthy Spider Publishing, 2006)
Ring of Rule (Zvezda, 2003)
Rippers: The Horror Wars (Pinnacle, 2004)
Royal Armies of the Hyborian Age (Fantasy Games Unlimited, 1975)
Skull Cleaver - Fantasy V 6 (Computer Moderated Miniature Wargame Rules) (Computer Strategies, 2007)
Song of Blades and Heroes (Ganesha Games, 2007)
Supersystem (West Wind Productions, 2000)
Third Kingdom Skirmish Game (Wargame involving animals) (Whimsical Entertainment, unknown)
Vis Magica (Ordered Flexibility, 2002)
Wargods of Ægyptus (Crocodile Games, 2002)
Wargods of Olympus (Crocodile Games, 2008)
Warhammer Fantasy Battle (Games Workshop, 1983) [1][16]
Warlord (Gamer's Guild, 1983)
Warlord (Reaper Miniatures, 2004)
WARMACHINE (Privateer Press, 2003) [1]
Warmaster (Games Workshop, 2000) [1]

As you can see, GW is not the only rules system out there.

I love your elf miniatures, I like the bag and you'd almost definitely have a sale if you only had a Canadian distributor. I refuse to pay customs out of principle.

As you can see, GW is not the only rules system out there.

Very true, but it IS the most widely used, by a very wide margin. And without GW popularizing wargames, people wouldn't have as much of an incentive to buy minis. There are a lot of people in it solely for the hobbying aspect, but you don't need to buy blocks upon blocks of infantry for that.

What do you really think the demand would be if GW didn't exist? The vast majority of people buy minis for the purposes of gaming, and the vast majority of them who buy minis in large quantities play GW games.

I know the scale is definitely different, and let's face it: Mantic minis are of a way higher quality than a lot of GW sculpts. But I cant imagine them selling very many elves or skeletons to people not playing WFB, at least in terms of ratio to players with VC or HE armies.

It's kind of like a company who makes software. They rely on computers and people using them to make a profit. And so they can sell their products to Windows users, Mac users, and Linux users. But 85% of the people out there are Windows users. You can't responsibly say that - assuming people buying their software were in roughly the same ratio OS-wise as the general populace - that they wouldn't be depending more or less on those Windows users to turn a profit.

It's a slightly faulty metaphor but I'm sure you get the idea.

Classic, I'm still waiting for their excellent Ghouls to be released around here, I'm itching to get a box and turn them into Hullghasts.

Why would they not want to cock a snook?

Good on them for a smart move.
and they get some positive publicity for nowt


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Better an apologist than a hysteric. It's not so much that I'm pro-GW, only that I'm against people who are offensively illogical.

Oestrogen
But why are you so offensive about this?

Are you suggesting that it is illogical to decry a price rise and support a support a company who announces a price freeze?
That is illogical, Jim.

Soon, there'll be elves, dwarves, and undead. That's enough for me and 2 friends to get into it. The army prices are pretty impressive compared to GW.

Dwarves? Mantic will make dwarves? When! Where!

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:Why would they not want to cock a snook?

Good on them for a smart move.
and they get some positive publicity for nowt


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Better an apologist than a hysteric. It's not so much that I'm pro-GW, only that I'm against people who are offensively illogical.

Oestrogen
But why are you so offensive about this?

Are you suggesting that it is illogical to decry a price rise and support a support a company who announces a price freeze?
That is illogical, Jim.

No, it's illogical to make the following leaps

GW-> Price Increase -> Enemy of Mankind
Mantic -> Price not-increase -> Holy defender of all things good

And frankly it's kind of grating to be called an apologist, when everyone else is simply doing the same thing I am (sans rational thought in many cases) for "not-GW".

The fact is, reducing it to a simple matter of price is a terrible point from which to jump to a conclusion. I'm not saying "don't support them, buy GW products instead." I was merely trying to point out the hypocrisy of this little advertisement.

Ostrakon wrote:I have nothing against Mantic, and if I ever start a VC army I'll be using their skeletons over GW's. Not because of price, either: Mantic has put out a much better product than GW in regards to plastic skeletons.

To each his own I guess. But saying Mantic's skeletons are superior to GW's is like saying Wargames Factory's Romans are superior to Wargames Foundry's.

I like the prices for Mantic, don't like the aesthetic.

The gnashing of teeth over the annual GW price rise does get old after awhile. I can't imagine people continue to be surprised.

I'm voting with my wallet and taking up Ancients

But to be fair no one has said GW = enemy of mankind as far as I could see.

annoying, pestulant, tyrannical ers maybe



these chaps look pretty good, if a little peaky.

I was obviously exaggerating, but "evil, greedy, soulless" has been thrown around quite a bit, with the majority of Dakka posters nodding furiously in agreement, as though it's Truth with a captial 'T'.

Ostrakon wrote:

As you can see, GW is not the only rules system out there.

Very true, but it IS the most widely used, by a very wide margin. And without GW popularizing wargames, people wouldn't have as much of an incentive to buy minis. There are a lot of people in it solely for the hobbying aspect, but you don't need to buy blocks upon blocks of infantry for that.

What do you really think the demand would be if GW didn't exist? The vast majority of people buy minis for the purposes of gaming, and the vast majority of them who buy minis in large quantities play GW games.

I know the scale is definitely different, and let's face it: Mantic minis are of a way higher quality than a lot of GW sculpts. But I cant imagine them selling very many elves or skeletons to people not playing WFB, at least in terms of ratio to players with VC or HE armies.

Mini wargamming was around a fair bit longer than GW has been in business. If GW didn't exist, the industry would change as would the clientele; however, there would still be mini-wargamming.

Such knee-jerk extapolations are what we all witnessed when TSR sold out to Wizards, "OMG, D&D is dead! Noone will ever role-play again!".

If GW closed shop tomorrow, another company would fill the void and we'd be having this same conversation about them 20 years later. Obviously the demand is there; if you build it, they will come.

I've yet to see GW hire ex-nazis and test their new mold injection system on babies first, so they aren't that evil yet.

BrookM wrote:I've yet to see GW hire ex-nazis and test their new mold injection system on babies first, so they aren't that evil yet.

You've yet to see it.

Doesn't mean some of us haven't...
*vanishes as the GW Gestapo silence the interloper!*

The problem is an apparent distancing between the corporate side of the business, and a section of the gaming community.

GW sets itself up for criticism from disgruntled gamers by doing things like annually hiking up the prices without explanation. It looks even more baffling by the selective manner in which it was done this time.

Yes GW is a business which wants to make a profit, but it acts in a way that seems to focus on pleasing shareholders. Can't remember the figures but around 50% of shares are held by investment companies. These groups are not investing cash to benifit the hobbyist. How many of these anonymous suits rattle dice - to move minis around the table that is. Some may do to help the decision making process

Mantic on the other hand have made the right overtures. Sure thay are smaller and no threat to GW.
They may have more freedom to do this. But they are showing that the corporate level of decision making doesn't have primacy and they are willing to keep in touch with their customer base with good free PR.

To be fair to GW they do reinvest in their products. Which are generally good imho. Also the staff I have talked to so far have been excellent and not been pushy. I have no complaints at that level. It is further up the chain, where they seemingly lose touch with the community they are selling to. There is simply too much treating the custom base as a cash cow to milk.

I can understand how people get irritated by the attutude and feel that GW walk rough shod over the hobbyist. Part of the problem may lie with the fact that GW are so successful and dominant in the hobby. It maybe that the effective lack of competition has led to a bit of arrogance and complacency.
I don't know tbh that is the perception among some of us and GW could do worse by taking steps to redress that. With sincerity rather than the usual business speil.

Kanluwen wrote:

BrookM wrote:I've yet to see GW hire ex-nazis and test their new mold injection system on babies first, so they aren't that evil yet.

You've yet to see it.

Doesn't mean some of us haven't...
*vanishes as the GW Gestapo silence the interloper!*

Right, Jervis is Eichmann, Warwick is Mussolini and Lindsey is Tojo.

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:
Mantic on the other hand have made the right overtures. Sure thay are smaller and no threat to GW.
They may have more freedom to do this. But they are showing that the corporate level of decision making doesn't have primacy and they are willing to keep in touch with their customer base with good free PR

And this is what just about every company does when it hits the market. GW used to do it. PP did it. Now Mantic. And eventually the line gets far enough along, that they decide to price them competitively within the market. Or they become a publicly-shared company and can't make decisions to be 'hobbyist friendly' anymore (for whatever reason).

Everyone's 'corporate decision making' doesn't have primacy when you're a small company with a handful of employees. When its running for 30 years, and has stores and distribution all around the world, then we can compare them.

I wish Mantic all the luck. Its always great to see new miniature companies in the mix.

agnosto wrote:

Ostrakon wrote:

As you can see, GW is not the only rules system out there.

Very true, but it IS the most widely used, by a very wide margin. And without GW popularizing wargames, people wouldn't have as much of an incentive to buy minis. There are a lot of people in it solely for the hobbying aspect, but you don't need to buy blocks upon blocks of infantry for that.

What do you really think the demand would be if GW didn't exist? The vast majority of people buy minis for the purposes of gaming, and the vast majority of them who buy minis in large quantities play GW games.

I know the scale is definitely different, and let's face it: Mantic minis are of a way higher quality than a lot of GW sculpts. But I cant imagine them selling very many elves or skeletons to people not playing WFB, at least in terms of ratio to players with VC or HE armies.

Mini wargamming was around a fair bit longer than GW has been in business. If GW didn't exist, the industry would change as would the clientele; however, there would still be mini-wargamming.

Such knee-jerk extapolations are what we all witnessed when TSR sold out to Wizards, "OMG, D&D is dead! Noone will ever role-play again!".

If GW closed shop tomorrow, another company would fill the void and we'd be having this same conversation about them 20 years later. Obviously the demand is there; if you build it, they will come.

To be fair, D&D (and tabletop RPGs in general) are way more accessible than miniature wargaming. The IP changing hands would very likely be great for us gamers, but in the wrong hands it could be potentially disastrous. All it takes is some smug company thinking they can invalidate our entire mini collections and force us to buy from a new line, and guess what - for a lot of us, they'd probably be right!

countchocula86 wrote:

Soon, there'll be elves, dwarves, and undead. That's enough for me and 2 friends to get into it. The army prices are pretty impressive compared to GW.

Dwarves? Mantic will make dwarves? When! Where!

There's a Dakka contest right now to name their unit of Dwarves with guns/crossbows, which, if I'm not mistaken, indicates that Dwarves are up next.
Seriously though, I am buying an army as soon as I read through the rules set. The models show a lot of promise.

Specs wrote:I love your elf miniatures, I like the bag and you'd almost definitely have a sale if you only had a Canadian distributor. I refuse to pay customs out of principle.

Every time I've ordered from Maelstrom games, they were marked such that I paid no customs/taxes/etc., for them coming into the country. Same with miniaturemarket.com

Ostrakon wrote:
And frankly it's kind of grating to be called an apologist, when everyone else is simply doing the same thing I am (sans rational thought in many cases) for "not-GW".

Sure because EVERYONE thinks the OPPOSITE of you, by the way Games Workshop are a rare case of business model, you don't see Nintendo saying "hmm last year we kept selling Nintendo DS' so let's crank them up by 15% and do so next year with the wii", in fact they lower the prices as the profit go up.

I am planning to get an army of Mantic Miniatures because they are a joy to paint, I don't play WHFB and don't plan to.
I'll be getting mantic minis because of their quality.

I can see this turning into another "GW is pissing on my corn flakes" rant thread.

We get it. People think GW is only out to take your money and that companies with NO shareholders, NO overhead in things like stores and their own dedicated team of painters and rules writers and people paid to run the gw hobby centers have lower prices because they aren't out to feth you over like GW.

I love all the "armchair" CEO's that think if they owned GW that they could keep things the way they are, cut prices in half and somehow make money.

Why also compare plastic minis, who's production costs don't decrease over time (afterall, plastic production technology doesn't change and get better on an annual basis like computer tech does allowing computer tech to be manufactured cheaper) with tech like video cards and cpu's?

Video games get cheaper over time (though not very fast as MW2 is still $50 at most places a year after initial release) because the market gets saturated and demand goes down. Yet funnily enough when CD became the media for gaming with the Playstation 1 cd's were more expensive to press than they are now, yet games now still cost $60 upon release whereas back in PS1 days I don't recall any PS1 game selling that high initially.

So by logic, since it's cheaper to press out cd's now vs 15 years ago any new games to come out on PS3/360 should be $30 or $20, not $60.

30 years ago Coke produced a lot fewer cans of their carbonated sodas than they do now and yet cans/bottles of Coca-Cola have not gotten cheaper. I guess Coke is an evil money hungry corporation.

It's easy to rant against GW because they are the biggest but if any of you honestly believe that if PP or Mantic or the makers of Malifaux were as big as GW and NOT do what GW does, for better or worst, you are delusional and need to step away from the keyboard and take your meds.

Fateweaver wrote:

It's easy to rant against GW because they are the biggest but if any of you honestly believe that if PP or Mantic or the makers of Malifaux were as big as GW and NOT do what GW does, for better or worst, you are delusional and need to step away from the keyboard and take your meds.

And if they became as successful as GW and didn't become a PLC? Because 'as successful as GW' is still not a megacorp and given GW's recent financial reports, pay freezes, store reductions, price hikes and staff cuts, not so fething successful atm eh?

Seriously, I revoke my previous statement to you about you just posting in OT, take your drivel back to OT and keep it there... 'burning Jewish babies' indeed, total bloody flamebaiting.

GW Management does not have to enter this discussion at all.

The only question that really matters in this particular thread is do you like Mantic's minis?

If the answer is yes, then this press release is hilarious.

If the answer is no, then this press release is also hilarious.

It's win/win.

(I happen to like their skinny elf models and want to see more)

MeanGreenStompa wrote:

Fateweaver wrote:

It's easy to rant against GW because they are the biggest but if any of you honestly believe that if PP or Mantic or the makers of Malifaux were as big as GW and NOT do what GW does, for better or worst, you are delusional and need to step away from the keyboard and take your meds.

And if they became as successful as GW and didn't become a PLC? Because 'as successful as GW' is still not a megacorp and given GW's recent financial reports, pay freezes, store reductions, price hikes and staff cuts, not so fething successful atm eh?

Seriously, I revoke my previous statement to you about you just posting in OT, take your drivel back to OT and keep it there... 'burning Jewish babies' indeed, total bloody flamebaiting.

The way people act over having to pay $2 more for a tactical squad this year vs last year makes me think that is what is going through their heads.

I thought you had me on iggy MGS or did you take me off just to insult me some more. My posts are no more mindless drivel than yours are. You might have a higher post count but that doesn't mean your posts are any more meaningful than mine.

I thought it was a pretty lame and stupid and failed attempt at a humorous jab at GW. There, I said it. MGS can continue flaming me and attacking me.