IG Dealing With Chaos

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**Soup and a roll**

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:I do have to ask, how is Termicide a "good hard counter" to vendettas?

You need 6inch melta range, if you are positioning to drop within 6inches of the vendetta, 90 degress of your potential scatter arc will mishap you (unless you just completely miss the target, which is just as bad.) also 300 points of termies is either 10 termies unupgraded (which can't do jack to the vendetta) or ~7 termis with Combi-melta (unless you meant Chainfists... I hope to GOD you don't mean Chainfists...) So those 7 termies take their 1 melta-shot each (per game) miss 1/3 of them (lets be nice and say... 2) of the 5 that hit, 1 glance 4 pens (in melta range) or 2 glances (3 on a good day 2 glances and a pen on a better day) if not in melta range. the two glances only do something on a roll of 6 (I guess an Immobilised result is just as good in most cases...) so only really if you are rolling particularly well will that 300 some points of termies (that after this point, will most likely be killed easily) MIGHT kill that 140point Vendetta... I don't really see that as a Hard Counter...

A termicide squad is generally accepted to be 3 chaos terminators with combi meltas (a sometimes a chainfist), deep striking. They come in at a little over a hundred points. By positioning the squad 2-5" (do you feel lucky, punk?) from the rear corner of the most threatening vehicle (preferably a squadron) they can minimise mishaps while maximising the potential targets (you don't have to shoot at the vehicle you tried to land next to). It is effective when combined with fast icons such as bikers, characters or transported units to prevent scatter. If the squad fluffs they are not too expensive to ruin your game. If they land correctly they can easily get two hits on a threatening vehicle with an excellent chance of at best destroying it or at worst preventing it from firing for a turn. You then have three very vulnerable wounds sitting by themselves fully expecting to be killed at once, hopefully attracting some firepower. If not (unlikely) you have 9 power weapon attacks on the charge or even a chainfist.

Three squads of the above deny the army chosen, possessed and dreadnoughts. I personally love dreads and enjoy using chosen so I wouldn't go 3x termicide unless I was desperate (outflanking melta chosen are also good anti-tank). While some players love possessed I think most players leave home without them.

The obvious downsides of termicide are they are a one-shot glass hammer and they are prone to scatter if not iconed.

In my experience a squad will destroy it's target vehicle ~80% of the time if iconed, 50% if not.

Edit for grammar

**Alerian**

Soup and a roll wrote:
Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:I do have to ask, how is Termicide a "good hard counter" to vendettas?

You need 6inch melta range, if you are positioning to drop within 6inches of the vendetta, 90 degress of your potential scatter arc will mishap you (unless you just completely miss the target, which is just as bad.) also 300 points of termies is either 10 termies unupgraded (which can't do jack to the vendetta) or ~7 termis with Combi-melta (unless you meant Chainfists... I hope to GOD you don't mean Chainfists...) So those 7 termies take their 1 melta-shot each (per game) miss 1/3 of them (lets be nice and say... 2) of the 5 that hit, 1 glance 4 pens (in melta range) or 2 glances (3 on a good day 2 glances and a pen on a better day) if not in melta range. the two glances only do something on a roll of 6 (I guess an Immobilised result is just as good in most cases...) so only really if you are rolling particularly well will that 300 some points of termies (that after this point, will most likely be killed easily) MIGHT kill that 140point Vendetta... I don't really see that as a Hard Counter...

A termicide squad is generally accepted to be 3 chaos terminators with combi meltas (a sometimes a chainfist), deep striking. They come in at a little over a hundred points. By positioning the squad 2-5" (do you feel lucky, punk?) from the rear corner of the most threatening vehicle (preferably a squadron) they can minimise mishaps while maximising the potential targets (you don't have to shoot at the vehicle you tried to land next to). It is effective when combined with fast icons such as bikers, characters or transported units to prevent scatter. If the squad fluffs they are not too expensive to ruin your game. If they land correctly they can easily get two hits on a threatening vehicle with an excellent chance of at best destroying it or at worst preventing it from firing for a turn. You then have three very vulnerable wounds sitting by themselves fully expecting to be killed at once, hopefully attracting some firepower. If not (unlikely) you have 9 power weapon attacks on the charge or even a chainfist.

Three squads of the above deny the army chosen, possessed and dreadnoughts. I personally love dreads and enjoy using chosen so I wouldn't go 3x termicide unless I was desperate (outflanking melta chosen are also good anti-tank). While some players love possessed I think most players leave home without them.

The obvious downsides of termicide are they are a one-shot glass hammer and they are prone to scatter if not iconed.

In my experience a squad will destroy it's target vehicle ~80% of the time if iconed, 50% if not.

Edit for grammar

If facing termicide, all an IG player has to do us use an =I= with Mystics in a Vendetta. By keeping CCS and Melta Vets in Chimeras within 12" of the huge footprint of the Vendetta, all termicide squads eat meltas to the face before firing a shot

**Redwunz**

Wow! The ouchy things you can do to the bad marines are many.
I'm sure D.A.R. will cover it, but start with plasma/melta vets and CCS, Demo charges, Leman Russ with battle/demo/executioner cannon w/plasma cannon sponsons, Basilisk or Collosus arty, blobs with 3-10 power weapons (ok, 10 is stupid, but 3-5 is pretty good), Chem cannon hellhound variant (Bane Wolf?), etc, etc.
That's not even counting the wounds you can lay on with simple volume of fire with lasguns, autocannons and such.

*edit* Okay, I type way to slow

**Soup and a roll**

Alerian wrote:If facing termicide, all an IG player has to do us use an =I= with Mystics in a Vendetta. By keeping CCS and Melta Vets in Chimeras within 12" of the huge footprint of the Vendetta, all termicide squads eat meltas to the face before firing a shot

Aye. I pointed that out when talking about the escalation of making armies to beat your opponent. The terminators will come in one turn 2+ so the CSM has at least one turn to shoot up the mystic. Then you end up with people holding armies in reserve, cookie cutter army lists and WAACery. Fun for everyone!

**CajunMan550**

If you want to crush heavy MC Chaos or even just ur basic lash list your heavies should be 1 5 Plasma Cannon Executioner, 1 Punisher with pask and 1 Colossus. Against that chaos army those 3 tanks out do themselves 10 fold trust me they make Chaos cry if you got the points or like all LRs consider a Demolisher instead of Colossus. All your troops can either have rides or be foot slogging it. Try a large blob squad bout 40 man with 6 PWs those are alot of fun just avoid beserker chargers by blaster there tanks early with auto cannon and LC teams. Also Vendettas if you can take them do lol they make MCs and Rhinos nothing more than smokeing treads and boots.

**Alerian**

Soup and a roll wrote:
Alerian wrote:If facing termicide, all an IG player has to do us use an =I= with Mystics in a Vendetta. By keeping CCS and Melta Vets in Chimeras within 12" of the huge footprint of the Vendetta, all termicide squads eat meltas to the face before firing a shot

Aye. I pointed that out when talking about the escalation of making armies to beat your opponent. The terminators will come in one turn 2+ so the CSM has at least one turn to shoot up the mystic. Then you end up with people holding armies in reserve, cookie cutter army lists and WAACery. Fun for everyone!

huh?
The Termies (only 3 of them in standard termicide) do not have much of a chance of ever shooting, with a Plasma CCS within 12 inches of the =I='s Vendetta. Even melta vets will drop 1-2 of the Termies before they get to shoot. Termies getting shot by AP 1-2 weapons as they DS, before they get to shoot makes them cry

Termicide vs. IG+ Mystics = fail...lol

**Soup and a roll**

Alerian wrote:huh?
The Termies (only 3 of them in standard termicide) do not have much of a chance of ever shooting, with a Plasma CCS within 12 inches of the =I='s Vendetta. Even melta vets will drop 1-2 of the Termies before they get to shoot. Termies getting shot by AP 1-2 weapons as they DS, before they get to shoot makes them cry

Termicide vs. IG+ Mystics = fail...lol

I'm saying that even if the gaurd army is perfectly castled, the CSM play has at least one turn of shooting before any deepstrikers come in. This rearly happens (in my experience) as it is hard to cover every vulnerable target, especially with a variable range on the mystics. You certainly make it much harder for termicide to be effective by taking mystics but it by no means fool-proof.

**Daemon-Archon Ren**

tldr wrote:Daemon-Archon Ren- What would a guard list look like cheesed out to be anti-chaos?

Ennkay wrote:
Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:
CSM player puts his army on Dakka Swap Shop (or Ebay/Rogue Market/W.E) and picks up MTG/Warmachine.

I see what you did there,

Anyway guard is a very very flexible army that offers fantastic counters to whatever your opponent might bring to the table
you have a number of fantastic multipurpose units that can be mighty killy

Russes are always great for dealing with MEQ, and by proxy nurgle marines
the standard LRBT is a great cheap option, in 5th edition it is probably BEST suited to deal with
squads of marines at a time, now you can either take them base or you can throw plasma cannons on the sides to become death to anything that moves(this option is still under 200 points)
the only other variant that i really would say is worth its weight is probably the demolisher, the rest of them, in my opinion, are just there for funsies
if you take a demolisher just base you have a large strength 10 pie plate that will make short work of everything that is not Assault terminators, once again you can add plasma cannons to just wipe everything away, this same thing can be done with an executioner, but its arguably better to take a plasma russ or demolisher instead, as the point cost is less and the effectiveness can be better

Vendettas are a fantastic unit, actually no, they are an incredibly broken unit.
Why they decided to strap 3 twin linked las cannons onto a fast skimmer for the points is astonishing.
so until 6th edition guard you can abuse that fact, consider the following scenario:

your friend is playing plague marines riding in rhinos with some of his bigger things in land raiders

you deploy relatively far away with russes and vendettas

3 vendettas open up rhinos with relative ease, and if you are fielding chimeras with multi lasers it is possible to assist in this process.
with a squad or two of plague marines out in the open you pound a single LRBT(without sponsons) shell into a squad, killing at least 4 on a direct hit(and thats being generous to the nurgle player)

Veterans whipping around melta guns in any sort of transport is always a good day

against a nurgle player you might consider the following loadout for chimera riding veterans

Veterans
melta
melta
melta
Chimera
hull heavy flamer

i find that chimeras are the 55 point upgrade to give guardsmen power armour, if you point the facing in the appropriate direction it can be difficult to get them out of their box. also when they go opened top from shooting it will make the chimera easier to blow up, but in return the guardsmen inside are less likely to all die in the resulting explosion

you can also put veterans in the vendettas to make a unit that is the bane of armor

Vendetta
heavy bolters

Veterans
melta
melta
melta
Demolitions

This type of squad gets 3 melta guns, a nice little demo charge, and 10 melta bombs, they pretty much are the gak

this leads me to how you might deal with a daemon prince,

other players have suggested plasma veterans, i happen to dislike plasma veterans because i feel like they explode themselves as fast as they shoot

what really gets some of the big guys is your humble CCS

i like to outfit mine as such

CCS
commander w/ plasma pistol(and sometimes power fist)
plasma gun
plasma gun
plasma gun
Medic
Chimera
hull heavy flamer

This gives you 7 BS4 plasma shots with a good % of survival in the event of an overheat

It also takes gaks all over everything in existence

hope this helps, if not, i can just give you the imperial guard tactica

This is why I love knowing a guard player irl. I am also taking this from seeing it square off agasnt almost every face of CSM out there...

As far as termicide goes, I still don't see it being nearly as effective as you are saying. First off, the 80% figure is pure fabrication, you have a 164% chance of getting 1 pen in the three shots (so about 50% they will all pen) and then you have a 50% chance that will fail. That will give you an ~82% chance to kill a vendetta(in total, not with each shot) within 6 inch melta range. Outside of that, its dropped to 33% chance(in total not with each shot) and thats not counting the possible scatter.

How you are getting an Iconed unit within 6inchs of the vendetta, I have no idea (even if you are going max range of 12 inches, that vendetta player is terrible for letting your icon get that close) and Icons only work if the unit is on the board before dropping (also not counting subsequent drops, so if two squads come out the same turn, one does not guide the other, we dont have dante sadly, so your first iconed squad is gonna scatter...) Dropping two inches is foolish as you will certainly mishap, you have to deploy in a circle and you can't be within 1 inch (after all bodies land) or you mishap, so assuming you dead hit with a 2inch range, you are mishapping, assuming you move 1 inch toward the model, you are mishapping. at 5 inches the opposite problem arise, go even 1 inch from the desired point away from the vendetta, and at least one of your shots is not getting melta.

The vendetta costs 140 points, the termicide costs 120 points... effectively, you are spending 120 points to kill 140 points which in its first turn of shooting(it gets two of these if you go second), will likely kill 160+(320) points of your stuff, that 120 points has a chance of scattering giving the Vendetta another 120, totalling at 280+ (440) and then that vendetta will have probably killed just about every other threat it may or may not have (including the squad itself if it lands and doesn't hurt the vendetta, 3 twin linked lascannons typically = 3 dead termis.). And again, these cost the IG player 140 points, and he can take 9.

Is termicide good against Land Raiders? Sure
Against Dreds? Overkill, but sure
LRBTs? Hell yeah!

but vendettas... noooooooo

I also have to ask how you find the fact that the termies are coming down turn 2+ to be good for CSM. CSM have (not counting Defilier battle cannons) max range 48" Guard have much better range then that, with nastier weapons, and big tanks blocking off that mystic squad (also being used by said mystic squad to shoot the deepstrikers.). You won't be thinning the guard player out by the time your termis drop, odds are, they will have thinned you out.

I understand the concept of Escalation and by no means to I not agree it exists, however I will firmly state that in an "escalation" war of IG vs Chaos, IG wins before chaos gets a second rebuttle, as Chaos has little variety in cookie cutter (and even thin, its nichy at best) and IG just COMPLETELY trumps them. It would be like comparing the "escalation" of a Haitian tribe with the United States Military... IG out gun CSM, period. (Now in APOC, we get all their fun stuff and more, and thats a COMPLETELY different story!)

**willydstyle**

You're doing your math wrong. There is no such thing as a 164% chance.

Assuming the Terminators drop in 1/2 range (since we're measuring to the hull of the vendetta, that's basically directly below the thing), on average rolls, you get 2 hits, 1.67 pens, so about .83 dead vendettas.

**Soup and a roll**

Hi. I suggested termicide as an example of a possible counter to a vendetta spam when discussing escalation. Obviously there may be more expensive targets. If the vendetta is the best target the termicide squad has a excellent chance of killing it without breaking the bank.

If you are talking about 3 squadrons of vendettas, 3 termicide squads alone would not be an adequate counter. They are also cheaper than you suggest as most players (myself included) wouldn't take Cfists.
Icons are really cheap and you can have them on a great number of units in CSM. Also you can be placed within 6" of the icon so you just need a squad with 12" of any target (as many as possible) for a successful drop.

I agree that it is not ideal to not have the unit deepstriking on the first turn, but CSM can't do that so other units might want to think about causing some damage in the first turn. I disagree that 3 TL LC typically will kill 3 termies. I think one has about a 40% chance? (4+ reroll to hit, 2+ wound, 5+ invuln), so 1.2 dead, ~30 points.

If you are taking 9 vendettas (1260 points?) I think there are a number of very effective counters. (Who takes 9 vendettas?)

Anyway, I'm happy to concede that Guard have a number of effective strategies to give typical CSM armies a hard time. I think you should concede that this does not make them unbeatable and also that CSM also have a number (probably not so many) of valid strategies to counter various different guard armies.

Edit for grammar

**Ailaros**

Okay, so I'm no CSM player, granted, but what's all the worry about vendettas? So they're good against vehicles. So is all that artillery that the opposing leaf blower list is bringing, and so are all of the dozens of meltaguns and meltabombs that the infantry is carrying.

Guard are, generally, good against vehicles, and if you're a CSM, you're only bringing a few anyways. Furthermore, as was already mentioned several times, the idea of deploying on your side of the board and then gunning it out into the open is going to FAIL. Why be so concerned about a unit that makes a failing strategy fail harder?

**Daemon-Archon Ren**

willydstyle wrote:You're doing your math wrong. There is no such thing as a 164% chance.

Assuming the Terminators drop in 1/2 range (since we're measuring to the hull of the vendetta, that's basically directly below the thing), on average rolls, you get 2 hits, 1.67 pens*, so about .83 dead vendettas.

66% chance to hit x 3 shots

1.98 hits x .83 chance to pen (30/36)

1.65 (Aprox 164%) pens * 50% chance to wreck (+1 on table)

0.825

~82% chance that three shots at melta range will kill it. How is my math wrong? There is such thing as 164% chance. Probability is not limited to 0-100%.

*(You realise this is saying 167% right?)

How are they cheaper?

30 each + 10 points for Combi-Melta each = 40 each x3 120 points...

I will say this

Bad IG lists can counter most Bad CSM lists

Bad CSM lists can counter some Bad IG lists

Bad IG lists can counter some good CSM lists

Bad CSM lists can counter NO good IG lists

Good IG lists can counter ALL bad CSM lists

Good CSM lists can counter some Bad IG lists

Good ig lists can counter most Good CSM lists

Good CSM lists can counter NO good IG lists.

see the balance?

**willydstyle**

Well, the actual math is a bit more complicated than that, if you're looking at a %chance to kill. There is no unit that has a 100% chance to kill as long as it's using dice.

To do it properly, we should take the chance of each shot to kill (2/3*11/12*1/2=22/72)and then figure the chance of getting a positive result with three trials.

The math for this is 22/72+22/72(1-22/72)+22/72*(1-22/72(1-22/72))=.758

So three meltas at half range have about a 76% chance to kill an AV12 vehicle. However, be aware that this is sloppy as it assumes glances have the same chance to kill as pens, as an estimation it works about right.

**Soup and a roll**

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:How are they cheaper?

30 each + 10 points for Combi-Melta each = 40 each x3 120 points...

I will say this

Bad IG lists can counter most Bad CSM lists

Bad CSM lists can counter some Bad IG lists

Bad IG lists can counter some good CSM lists

Bad CSM lists can counter NO good IG lists

Good IG lists can counter ALL bad CSM lists

Good CSM lists can counter some Bad IG lists

Good ig lists can counter most Good CSM lists

Good CSM lists can counter NO good IG lists.

see the balance?

5 points for a combi-weapon. I thought you were adding a 15 point chainfist.

My only objection is that you seem to be saying that if you have a good IG list you should be winning against any Chaos list. It's just not true. You give yourself the best chance by taking advantage of the multitude of big guns but there's no reason a good CSM player won't kick you up and down the board as much as you might do to him.

I know it's not really an indicator of anything but I just checked the last three CSM vs IG battle reports are 2:1 to CSM. You still need to be a good general and maybe get some luck to win.

@Ailaros: Nobody is specifically worried by vendettas. It was just an example given earlier about how any unit can be countered. Then Ren besmirched the honour of Termiciders and it turned into a bit of a debate

**Daemon-Archon Ren**

Soup and a roll wrote:
5 points for a combi-weapon. I thought you were adding a 15 point chainfist.

Mixed up the cost of the combi-weapons for ACs, forgot our termis come standard with a twinlinked bolter (I always upgrade the weapon)

My only objection is that you seem to be saying that if you have a good IG list you should be winning against any Chaos list. It's just not true. You give yourself the best chance by taking advantage of the multitude of big guns but there's no reason a good CSM player won't kick you up and down the board as much as you might do to him.

My statement is that

IG vs CSM

is like

A 1000 point game
DE vs Tau
On a 2' by 2' board, w/DE player going first, and 3rd edition assault rules...

I know it's not really an indicator of anything but I just checked the last three CSM vs IG battle reports are 2:1 to CSM. You still need to be a good general and maybe get some luck to win.

Well the 'Ard Boyz finals are July 17th and that can show us amount of IG lists vs CSM lists in terms of Tourny Tier... I however HIGHLY doubt you will see as many chaos as last year, because if you remember correctly, IG got their codex around the same time as last years Ard Boys, and with only having the new codex 3 months, Nick Rose took first place, by a MASSIVE 71 points (there are only 72 POSSIBLE points) with 2nd place having 63(eldar). With the amount of fine tuning guard has seen in the past year I will not be surprised if they dominate the Finals this time around.... for a sneak preview http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/150/294940.page

@Ailaros: Nobody is specifically worried by vendettas. It was just an example given earlier about how any unit can be countered. Then Ren besmirched the honour of Termiciders and it turned into a bit of a debate

If you arent worrying about vendettas, your IG player should pick up Heroscape.

**Soup and a roll**

Remember that the inexperience of the opponent plays a big role in how an army fares. I just looked at his list here:
http://www.40konline.com/community/index.php?topic=190979.0
and it is a very good list. Not unbeatable though so I suspect he would get fewer points with the same matchups against more experienced generals (just my opinion. I can't back this up obviously). I'd imagine that blood angels will romp around this year before slipping next year. People will have prepared for guard lists and have a great deal more experience in facing them.

Your DE example is just mean. Poor tau.

With regards to vendettas I was just trying to point out that the thread wasn't, 'Help me with vendettas!' until we hijacked it.

Will be interesting to see this year's tourney results. Looks like a good mix from the preview thread. Lots of Nids placing highly. If there are only guard matchups in the run up to the finals I will happily concede that guard cannot be beaten in the grand scheme of things!

Edit for observation

**willydstyle**

There's no such thing as an "unbeatable" list. I would not rate that list as "very good" as he has several lynch pin units that do not have redundancy. I'd rate it as "solid" as none of the units are truly horrible.