Gonna try making an unbiased Orc & Goblin army run-down. Might take a bit though, since I intend to go over everything.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
SPECIAL CHARACTERS
Gorbad Ironclaw. This edition is a very good one for Gorbad Ironclaw to be taken. He is Leadership 10, the only Leadership 10 model (base) in the Orc & Goblin Army. He also has the special rule where his Battle Standard Bearer's combat re-roll and General Leadership Usage is extended to 18". Depending on how the
FAQ for O&G reads, he might allow all units within 18" to re-roll any leadership tests at Leadership 10 (at least, until wounded). His chief advantage is that he's, while a Lord, only 310pts: You can fit in a semi-decent Infantry Warboss at that point level (or, if using Goblins, possibly two), and you don't have to pay the 55 minimal points for a Battle Standard Bearer. Finally, in Combat, he is slightly less of a slouch: He can now go before the rest of the Ladz (always a boon since they'll be I3 at best), and if the enemy is I4 or lower then he gets to re-roll failed to hits as well.
Unfortunately, all is not fine and well. Gorbad still has only a 3+ save, which - since he might have to take it after running through difficult terrain - could quickly drop his effective diameter by a solid 24 inches. Ouch! He also is still a 310 point Lord, which means that - while you can still take a non-slouch Warboss alongside him - you don't have any good counter for another army's killy generals. With more attacks able to be dedicated as well (additional ranks) towards Gorbad, he'll most probably only keep his special rule until his formation is engaged or has to run through a neck of woods.
Azhag the Slaughterer. Mixed opinion on this guy. You use up practically all the 25% Lord limit in games 2250 or under. He also is stuck on a Wyvern, which - while no longer +1 to hit - can't do much damage on its own in combat (even with additional attacks). He is also still very fragile, only a 5+ / 5+ save on him and a 4+ save for his mount.
Reason why I might even suggest him? Simple: He's a level 2 wizard in the Lore of Death now. Orc & Goblin Magic Armies have
their Lord Choice. Better yet, being on a Wyvern, a Miscast will only ever hit himself and - if positioned right - the enemy units he charged into. He can, until he burns out, potentially provide many extra dice for Orc & Goblin Wizards (alongside all the LoD damage), and even when he burns out the S10 template dropped on him might very well make up much of his cost.
Of course, that's also a reason to be careful: Does he count as a single model for the purpose of instant death? If so, that's himself AND a mount for a total of 450 points that were eaten up in a single roll of double 6's. While Gorbad's weakened by a single bad roll, Azhag is
toasted. Personally, I'd suggest him for a magic-heavy list. He can still provide some killy to the list, as well as being a magical god-send.
Grimgor Ironhide. He, to my knowledge, gains very little and loses nothing in this new edition. He's Always Strikes First, but already I5 as well as Hating Everyone. He's 375 points, so he stradles the line between allowing no other Lords (only Goblins). His only gains I can think of, are that in later rounds he can still re-roll failed to hits as well as the fact that many people will take larger units (and thus give him more to kill). Doesn't really gain anything, but loses nothing either.
Grom the Paunch of Misty Mountain. To my understanding, is slightly worsened. He's now undeniably Strength 6, he never negated ranks, and now ignores instant-destruction from S7 or better. However, he
is impaired by the loss of the combo Ward-Regen. He also is much less helpful in his negation of Fear in Goblins against Elves (seeing as it won't break them now but only subtract one
WS from non-Heroes). Is also just a few shy of being useable in a 1K game. Seeing as how most people don't use him anyways, it's a moot point.
Skarsnik. Depends greatly on whether regular Killing Blow affects him now. If so, that's a major bane. If not, he's only slightly less useful (having the chance of destroying his Prodder). Oh, well, technically, he does have one gain: No saves better than 4+ against Gobbla now. The only major plus for him isn't related to his rules: Being 205 points, you can field him in games 820 points or less and spend another 295 points on Lords in a 2K point game (or, since 3,000 might be the typical tournament size, up to 545 more in Gobbo Lords for a themed list).
Overall (Special Characters): Gorbad and Azhag are the two most benefited in this edition. Of all the Special Characters, barring a themed list, I'd have to state Gorbad to be the best choice. He has minimal losses, while at the same time providing some pretty decent gains. In small games Skarsnik might shine, but otherwise you're best sticking with Da Boss.
Lord Choices
Orc Warbosses. Each type has its own advantages and disadvantages still. A typical Orc Warboss seems to be at no gain, barring that being 120 points vanilla you might conceivably fit three of them in a 2,000 point game with so-so gear and not have them be horrible. Savage Orc Warbosses have very little incentive to bother with armor now (barring Boar + Enchanted Shield) due to the fact that Parry gives them a save they already have, but in turn their Leadership 9 means that Frenzy is unlikely to bait someone bearing this guy. Only five points more than a typical Warboss too, so you can relatively spam them in a similar fashion. However, bear in mind that with Initiative 4 and pretty much no save on-foot that these guys might be dragged down quickly. Finally, the Black Orc Warboss. I may be missing something, but there is practically zero improvement / penalty to this guy in 8th Edition beyond that his extra 25 points over a typical boss means you'll have less of him.
Orc Great Shaman. I'm on the fence with these guys. Both are Toughness Five and Leadership Eight. Both, vanilla (or even just a level boost), can leave enough room for a proper combat Warboss in a 2,000 point game. At 180 points for the cheapest, they can be in your army at only 750pt game levels. If you upgrade to Level 4 and take the Staff of Baduum, you are almost as good as a Vampire Count in that 2/3 the Spells will go off on a
3+. Even naked, no Great Shaman spell will take more than a nine to cast on average. Depending on what the Orc
FAQ says, you might use
their Miscast Table instead, which - as always - is seemingly the less harsh of the new edition (Here's for the 8th Edition book where it's an Apocalypse Blast on the Shaman
).
The catch? They're still expensive, you're taking anywhere between half and two thirds your Big Waaagh! choices in a single model, and if thus if the Shaman goes boom most of your magical power is gone too. And, furthermore, you're using a 7th Edition Magic Lore in a system where the 8th Edition Lores are King. Provided there is no spell change in the
FAQ, your spells are only so-so: Only
D6 Magic Missiles and no
2D6 or
3D6 varieties?
Goblin Warbosses. No losses to my understanding, and several gains due to one thing: 25% Lords, no slot limit. I'll go into this in its own paragraph. As for other advantages? Well, none that I can think of. They're not too high a Leadership, which is a bane when it comes to Stubborn via Ranks when facing pretty much anyone who isn't Beastmen or Hero-restricted Warriors of Chaos. They aren't particularly fast, and they aren't too well armed or armored either. They're finally above the typical rank & file (having Weapon Skill 5), but if you're going for some individual killy model you're often taking Orc Warbosses (or even Big Bosses) anyways due to extra Toughness on all levels and Strength on Lord Levels.
Why then is the 25% thing so good? A vanilla Goblin Warboss ranges from 55 to 65 points. This is very helpful for three good reasons. First: You can fit a Goblin Warboss - with Night Goblins possibly two - in a 500 point game. You can almost always,
always squeeze in a Goblin Warboss within the 25% limit. Second: The Goblin Warboss is at least on par with most other army's heroes, points slightly higher if better and slightly lower if worse. This factors into #3 as well, but is an advantage in its own right as it gives you a counter for most other armies' regular Hero choices. Finally, third advantage: You aren't spending it on Heroes. Those 320 points you slapped down on four Night Goblin Warbosses? None of them bar you from taking hero level wizards, fielding Orc Big Bosses, and so on.
Finally, for fun: You can, quite feasibly, fit ten (!) Night Goblin characters on Great Cave Squigs in a 2000 point list, or ten Common Goblin characters on Gigantic Spiders. That's a lot of 'fun' for all parties.
Goblin Great Shamans. As with Orc Great Shamans, these are an on-the-fence thing for me. The Orc advantages (higher toughness, leadership, bonus' to casting, and so on) all exist, with once more the same disadvantages. You get them at a slightly reduced price tag, and use the Little Waaagh! lore instead. However, Orc Shamans seem to benefit more: Whereas they can conceivably get 66% of their spells on a 3+, Night Goblins at best are getting half on 3+ or lower, and two on 4+. They have a lower "max" cast (their best spell can conceivably go off on a 5+), but their magic is much more situational to boot.
Overall (Lords): I'd say I'm leaning more in favor of the Lord-version of Orc Shamans, and against Goblin Shamans. Similarly, I'd say that - if you do plan on taking a special character - Goblin Lords are the better for anything other than direct Lord confrontation.
Hero Choices
Orc Big Boss. Lose out a decent bit on the "initiative order", as now they'll rarely go first on the charge. However, most plighted by this is the Savage Orc variety: All others can get at least a 2+ save with a Ward, if you so desired, while only cracking into a single common magic item (I do believe that with the Common Magic Item list you could get two that way, possibly three). The only real advantage I can find is that, if for some reason you had three characters on Chariots already, you can still run them (albeit almost vanilla). A minor note as well: Bear in mind that, with a certain magic item, a Black Orc Big Boss can come close to rivaling many other armies' Lords (being only one attack and wound shy, and of course initiative) by becoming WS7, S5, T5, and still having the option for a 2+ / 5+ save. No major losses besides the initiative issue (all are only I3). Practically no gain, but practically no loss either.
Orc Shaman. Orc Shamans gain a minor bit from the rule (+1 or +2 to cast), but not much. However, as with the Lord, it is worth keeping in mind that you can make a decent number (in this case 50%) of their spells go off on a 3+. With the proper magic item, you can change it to +4 to cast (situationally). On the plus side, you can fit five of 'em at level 2 in a 2K point game. On the minus side, you're wasting all of them after the third. Not much loss to speak of, the severity of miscasts depending on whose table they use.
Goblin Big Boss. Lacking special rules and stats, the Big Bosses are in the same boat as their lord variety: Easily able to be spammed at low point costs. While half the cost, they're also only Weapon Skill 4 (meaning that almost any army's special choices will hit them on 3's), as well as taking up hero points none-the-less. Their main advantage is that you can - if not taking Gorbad - get a
BSB for dirt cheap (55pts vanilla!). Just bear in mind how easy it is to kill a T4 2-wound model with at beast a 5+ / 5+ save from their own gear (and 4+ / 4+ using common magic): Even with the change from slot to percent, it may be better to just stick with an Orc
BSB.
Goblin Shaman. These benefit from the rule changes slightly more than the Orcs. While the Orc is stuck in the hard place between a single-
D6 and
2D6 roll - being too high to reliably roll on 1D6 but too low to justify a common use of two - the Goblin gets boosted to the place wherein it can successfully cast many of its spells on
2D6 now - only one Goblin Shaman Spell can't be casted on a 7+ while at level 2, and with a magic item all six can. However, as with Orcs, recall that you have no incentive for more than three: You only have six spell levels to spend on Goblins, and six spell levels to spend on Orcs. Since the Heroes benefit more than the Lords (who are in the same boat as Orc Hero-Shamans), I'd say these are more preferable for spell-casting.
Overall (Heroes): Orc Big Bosses, while they gain little, are notably tougher and 'arder hitting than Goblin Big Bosses. The rule changes allow more Goblin heroes, but they will rarely make a dent on non-Undead / Saurus core. Whereas Orc Shamans benefited most at a Lord level, Goblin Shamans seem to benefit more here.
Figure I have some time to kill tonight, and I'm not up for anything else, so - whilst I don't plan to finish - here's another update.
Magic Items
Common Items. For the most part, mixed. You have more Ward Saves now, but much of the combat options are less than helpful. Overall points are increased in the
BRB, so in the Army Book now you're better using the in-book variants. Staff of Sorcery still in the Army Book, so keep that in mind (as well as the fact that it'll probably go poof).
Overall (Common Items): Get ready for the price hike, use these while you can.
Magic Weapons. The Ironclaw Waaagh! Cleava is unchanged, as is the Skull Wand of Kaloth, Ulag's Akrit Axe, the Backstabber's Blade, Wollopa's One Hit Wunda, and Lucky Dirk.
The Battleaxe and Porko's are changed only slightly: It's harder to lose your ranks now, and Porkos is slightly better for flanking characters now (Ex: Goblin Big Boss on Wolf. Flank the enemy unit with five other wolves, hit the side. Still get the +3 attacks).
Basha's Bloodaxe is much, much less useful now. You're stuck outside units still, but now you only gain the
D6 attacks on the charge: Every other round you're only 3-5 attacks base (depending on equipment / character). It wasn't too great in the first place, but now seems to have minimal use if you can't break on the charge.
Shaga's Screamin' Sword is mixed. On one hand, against armies like Chaos you can now expect even less bonus'. However, against Skaven, Goblins, Empire, and possibly a few others, imagine how many more attacks you can get. Hell, imagine something like +5 strength and attacks in a 2K point game - S10 A9! Major pain! Since the focus is on picking lore before battle, it'll become much more hit or miss: Some armies you might never be able to get more than +2, but others you might be able to get ten or more attacks at S10. I mentioned it in other threads, but the "Front of Warlock Engineers" tactic would be
bad anywhere near an Orc / Goblin using this.
Martog's Best Basha is different in only one way: +1 Initiative. You can get an Initiative 6 Night Goblin Warboss, which often times will be fast enough to go before non-
ASF foes. Very good counter to some units. Also the item used to make a Black Orc Big Boss into a Lord-lite.
Sneaky Skewer. While the rules are the same, recall: The Goblin is S4. The blade is another -3. That's a total of -4. Furthermore, no saves better than 1+. No-one fighting you will ever have better than a 5+ save. Pretty good, if you have to deal with having a S4 character.
Overall (Magic Weapons): Porko's Pigstikka is much more useful on Gobbos (Gobbo Warboss w/ Pigstikka, Boots (see later) & Wolf = 150pt model with up to 8 S5 attacks on the flank charge at WS5) now that they can use their extra speed and flanking-nature to get bonus'. Shaga's is less useful as you can't expect the typical 3-4 characters at a 2K game, but more useful against some foes who might be bringing a half dozen or more at that point level. Martog's is good for bumping someone to a decent striking order. Skewer will ignore most saves now at only 10pts. Most other items unchanged.
Magic Armour. Armour of Gork is pretty much unchanged: Unless you plan on charging Gnoblars, it won't be changed for you. Same goes for Spiteful Shield, although with more models attacking you might get a slightly increased use rate.
Overall (Magic Armour): No real changes.
Talismans. Effigy of Mork has seemingly been out-sourced by a Common Magic Item. I can't recall the name of it, but it did the same thing for a lower point cost. Most people probably won't take it anyways, as it makes little difference when it comes to hitting most characters.
The Best Boss 'At isn't quite out-sourced, but it is met pretty handily by a common item - at least now you don't have to bicker over which character takes the 5+ Ward now. What I mean: There's at least two other Ward-Save Magic Items in the new Common Item list. Each is either a 5+ or 4+ Ward. With those, you now don't need to have the current O&G debate on which character you want to have a chance of surviving a challenge (currently, there's no regen or other definitive Ward Saves beyond a 6+). Not invalidated, but no gain either.
Amulet of Protectyness is slightly less helpfu nowl, as almost anyone can get a character durability parity via common magic items. Since no-one can get better than a 1+, it loses the advantage it had against things like Juggernaut Lords. The only real advantages I can think of are that it's only 25 points (though this is still only a steal against other durability characters) and that the frequency of warded characters will probably be on the rise (and thus more gain overall).
Collar of Zorga remains unchanged.
Overall (Talismans): Effigy is outsourced, Warboss 'Umms is now not a big debate on who to give it to, Amulet of Protectyness is less useful now due to easier armor parities, Collar of Zorga is unchanged.
Arcane Items. Idol of Mork... is mixed. On one hand, it's extra base power dice: Always good since it's random now. On the other, you lose dice more often than you gain (Must be Orc unit 20+ in combat to get a die, any O&G unit 20+ fleeing at this point is -1 die: Goblins included!). It could be useful, especially in larger games when you'll (be expected to) have lots of large units.
Staff of Sneaky Stealin' is a
wonderful item now. +1
DD and -1 enemy PD? Brings you two dice closer to a PD /
DD parity, and robs the enemy of some of their dice. It was good before, but now can be really helpful for stopping spells.
Staff of Baduum's bonus to casting is - while negligible at first (especially compared to a Lord) - decent in that most Orc & Goblin spells have a low casting value. Any hero level character with this staff will never take more than a 10+ to cast a spell, and a pimped-out Lord will never exceed a 7+ (Waaagh! being cast on two dice!). Price tag makes this kinda iffy, though.
Waaagh! Paint is a more situational Staff of Baduum. Orc only, double the bonus, 25% the cost... but doesn't work with two spells. Considering this can mean someone gets a Waaagh! off on a 6+, however, it might be worth trying. After all, +6 to Casting will make the dispel attempt a pain without a
DD parity (it will take an average of two dice now to make up the difference!).
Magic Mushrooms... are unchanged if the
FAQ says to use the Orc & Goblin table,
horrendously dangerous otherwise. Actually, they're still dangerous: If none of the prior dice rolled are 6's, you have no greater a miscast chance. If any of the prior dice were, your miscast odds after using the 'shroom are now 33%.
Overall (Arcane Items): Idol of Mork is situationally / list-dependent useful, Staff of Sneaky Stealin' & the two Casting Boosters are very helpful, and Magic Mushrooms range from only slightly more suicidal to dangerously suicidal. Hm, actually, that gives one potential use: Load up on a trio of Shrooms, wait in a unit, and run out to charge an enemy if the O&G use the Rulebook Table. Eat all three. Hope for at least one 1 or a pair of 6's. Enjoy your boomer.
Enchanted Items. Ironback Boar, Warboss Imbad's Iron Gnashas, Bigged's Kickin' Boots, Maad's Map*, Brimstone Bauble, and Madcap Mushrooms are unchanged.
The Horn of Urgok is now a Bound Item, meaning it must be rolled to cast. +1 to all Leadership values to a max of 10 and -1 to all enemy Leadership will become much bigger now: Stubborn might be more prevalent, so the penalty of even -1 to the general's leadership could be a Gorksend. Similarly, +1 to your Leadership means a non-Gorbad general can now be Leadership 10 for a
Ld 10 Stubborn instead of
Ld 9: A decent increase in success odds. Of course, it's still a risky investment at its points cost.
The Pipes of Doom are less useful now, as pretty much everything's leadership is even higher now / given more re-roll options. Only real advantage I can think of is using it to force a screening cavalry unit to flee through said unit and take some Dangerous Terrain hits.
Tricksy Trinket hasn't changed, but with the minor reduction in save effectiveness as well as its nullification power it might prove more useful as someone's forced to either take their inferior Regen instead of Ward Save (see: Druchii Lord) or stuck with only an armor save (see: Most characters).
Nibbla's 'Itty Ring is bound now too, but having only a 3+ to cast means you can get it off 66% of the time on a single dice - good enough since it means you need not risk it going poof from double-sixes.
Guzzla's Battle Brew is slightly more effective for 3-4 results as you don't get forced to pursue due to Hatred any more, and 5-6 results as you're harder to have your character baited out with Frenzy.
Overall (Enchanted Items): Mostly unchanged or made slightly inferior. Nothing to really complain about: The bad stuff was mostly bad already, and the good stuff wasn't really hit hard.
Overall (Magic Items): Most weapons are either unchanged or slightly more effective, most armor is unchanged, Talismans are unchanged or made less spectacular, Arcane Items are all pretty much better depending on circumstances (Getting 3+ casting spells instead of 5+ for example), and enchanted are practically completely static barring one or two items.
Mounts
Wyvern. Slightly slower now, having only a 10+
2D6 (technically) charge for an average of only 16-18" instead of 20". Of course, is technically slightly faster too with a potential 20" range. Crush makes it more effective now, especially if it keeps Poison for those attacks, but it still is inferior to other Flying Mounts (only 3 S6 attacks base).
Gigantic Spider. Since it isn't Fast Cavalry, can make some of the Forest Goblin Spider Rider units capable of negating ranks again. Having Initiative 4 as well, you can rely on it to go before at least a few enemies. No real changes otherwise, besides the (seeming) +1 to save now allowed for this mount.
Great Squig. Changed the same degree as Spawns when it comes to their random movement. That's about it.
Boar. No changes.
Giant Wolf. No direct changes, just like the Boar, but keep in mind the Porko's Pigstikka combination I mentioned earlier.
Overall (Mounts): Wyvern is slightly better, but still inferior to other flying mounts. Gigantic Spider is useful now in that it allows Spider Riders to flank. Pretty much everything else is minimal / no change.
*Maad's Map dependent on what Scout is like in 8th Edition.
. I hope there's something in the individual army books about that. That's a lot more firepower than they can currently take... right?
. They'll be relegated to supporting charges from the flank. Slightly Improved