Can you put ICs with Snikrot?

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**puma713**

Gorkamorka wrote:
puma713 wrote:
kill dem stunties wrote:You cannot benefit from something you do not have.

What are you talking about? When an IC that doesn't have infiltrate joins Shrike's unit, he is subject to "See, But Remain Unseen", which is Shrike's special rule. He is a member of the unit, therefore he is affected by the rule. He doesn't remove "Infiltrate" because there is no one in the unit that has the Infiltrate USR. They are being affected by a rule that gives them infiltrate, just like the IC. As soon as the IC becomes a part of the unit, he gains Infiltrate, not because of a rule being conferred upon him, but because he is subject to "See, But Remain Unseen", just like any other model that joins Shrike's "unit".

Your hung up on the fact that there is a USR involved. It would matter if Shrike actually had Infiltrate and then an IC joined him. That IC wouldn't be able to Infiltrate. But that's not what's happening here. There is a blanket ability affecting anyone who joins Shrike's unit. The ability gives a USR. This isn't the same as having a USR conferred upon you.

Again, it's the entire reason the INAT changed its ruling on Shrike, just as it did on Snikrot.

The problem with Shrike, as I understand it (going from memory without either rule in front of me), has to do with deployment order.
You can't join an IC to a unit at deployment without deploying them in coherency... they aren't joined until that point. So either you place shrike as an infiltrator and are stuck with a unit without his rule that can't deploy by him, or you place the unit without infiltrate then deploy shrike with them in their bad position. It's a very strict raw hardline though, and makes his rule essentially worthless (sans reserves, I suppose), so most people ignore it.

Ah. Yeah, I figured you were talking about his ability to deploy and not necessarily his special rule. That debate has been dragged through the mud many times.

**kartofelkopf**

Yeah, it's nothing to do with who grants what, but an issue of when.

RAW, they cannot infiltrate (Shrike and a non-Infiltrating unit/IC), but could Outflank.

Nobody* plays it that way, but just one of those "Oh, that's weird" moments.

*"nobody" as used here may or may not include the RAW Brigade. I can't remember which arguments are made in earnest and which are made for the sake of pedanticism.**

**playing Devil's Advocate is often appreciated. No flame intended. Your mileage may vary, see store for details.

**puma713**

kartofelkopf wrote:Yeah, it's nothing to do with who grants what, but an issue of when.

RAW, they cannot infiltrate (Shrike and a non-Infiltrating unit/IC), but could Outflank.

Nobody* plays it that way, but just one of those "Oh, that's weird" moments.

*"nobody" as used here may or may not include the RAW Brigade. I can't remember which arguments are made in earnest and which are made for the sake of pedanticism.**

**playing Devil's Advocate is often appreciated. No flame intended. Your mileage may vary, see store for details.

Offer void in Utah.

**Black Blow Fly**

Snikrot is available as a replacement for a Nob in a unit of kommandos. The unit is the kommandos. Another IC joining his unit is not another option for the unit to field, it's simply a character joining the unit. That is why if you join another character to the unit they as a whole cannot Ambush. It's just that simple too.

**kartofelkopf**

Just like an IC joined to a command squad with apothecary doesn't have FNP, right?

...

When an IC joins a squad, they are now a SINGLE unit.

If I use a Pysker Battle Squad to lower the leadership of a unit with an attached IC, is the IC's leadership lowered?

Of course-- he's part of the unit.

An IC attached to Snikrot's squad is... well, it's part of Snikrot's squad. Ergo, it benefits (or is disadvantaged by) things that affect that squad.

It's just that simple, too.

**Black Blow Fly**

Go back and read the rules for the kommandos. The kommandos are referred to as Snikrot's unit. An IC joining the unit is just that... an IC joining the unit. He is not a kommando.

G

**nosferatu1001**

Black Blow Fly wrote:Snikrot is available as a replacement for a Nob in a unit of kommandos. The unit is the kommandos. Another IC joining his unit is not another option for the unit to field, it's simply a character joining the unit. That is why if you join another character to the unit they as a whole cannot Ambush. It's just that simple too.

7

I suggest you reread the rules for ICs joining units. It states, quite clearly, that they are part of the unit and therefore the rule applies.

Your reasoning is simple but wrong.

**Black Blow Fly**

ICs that join a unit count as a separate unit in close combat & can be singled out during assaults. So it's a separate unit joined to hte kommandos.

G

**nosferatu1001**

So "count as" means "not actually"

They are not ACTUALLY a seperate unit, they just count as. You still need to read page 49, Independent Characters and Assaults, end of the second paragraph, where it states they "once again count as normal members of the unit they have joined"

So the rules disagree with you and the English language disagrees with you (on what "join" means)

**KingCracker**

nosferatu1001 wrote:So "count as" means "not actually"

They are not ACTUALLY a seperate unit, they just count as. You still need to read page 49, Independent Characters and Assaults, end of the second paragraph, where it states they "once again count as normal members of the unit they have joined"

So the rules disagree with you and the English language disagrees with you (on what "join" means)

AWww I wish I had thought of that one when arguing with someone about a mad dok granting FNP to an IC that joined his unit as well. The guy SWORE an IC is never counted as part of their unit anywhere in the rulebook because he just coulndt find it. Nice ness.

But to add more to what I said earlier, Fluff wise is the reason I dont use Thraka with them (again unless it was a tourny and I really wanted to win the prize) fluff wise the guy is over 20feet tall and weighs.....god like 20tons or so? How the hell can that guy sneak around the bushes with out people seeing him? But in a normal game, Id have no problem doing the Snikrot trick with a normal non mega boss warboss. That would be easy enough to see fluff wise how he could sneak around.

Also just too add, Thraka was also in Armageddon, a couple times.

**nosferatu1001**

Thraka is kinda famous for startring in the Armageddon wars, otherwise Yarrick was captured by the wrong dude....

**Black Blow Fly**

Thrakka did not start Armegeddon. The first war was versus Khorne/Angron.

The rules on page 48 of hte BRB only states that an IC joins a unit, never states he is part of the unit. So a warboss joining Snikrot and his boys does not suddenly become a kommando.

G

**BrockRitcey**

Really? What do you think the word joining means?

You should open your book to page 48.

Third bullet "While an independent character is part of a unit,..."

**Black Blow Fly**

That could have been stated in reference to a retinue as it's the only time in that section he is referred to as such. All other instances state he joined to the unit, not part of the unit.

G

**BrockRitcey**

Again that is what joining does. GW takes some assumptions when it writes the rules and one of those is that you understand the meaning of the words they use.

And if he never actually joins then that section doesn't apply to an IC when he joins a unit and he doesn't have to obey cohesion rules or move at the slowest speed while they stay together.

**Black Blow Fly**

Snikrot's unit is the kommandos. There is no option for them to include a Warboss. Snikrot's rule works for his unit, the kommandos. That is what this is all about. If the warboss was part of the unit and could benefit from the rule then why not go so far as to mount him on a bike to get the most advantage? Or take Thrakka then use his special Waaaagh rule? Game balance is important, it's not all about how much you can squeeze the rules.

G

**BrockRitcey**

The boss on a bike would still be limited to a 6" move on the turn it enters play but it is an option. And Ghaz is always a popular option.

And if snikrots power doesn't apply to IC that are part of the unit then things like the apothecary or pain boys would not grant it to the IC because he's "not part of the unit".

**Gorkamorka**

Black Blow Fly wrote:Snikrot's rule works for his unit, the kommandos. That is what this is all about.

Game balance is important, it's not all about how much you can squeeze the rules.

I suppose game balance is important, since it's causing you to blatantly ignore the rules after being told to read them by half a dozen people.
The IC joins the unit in reserves per the reserves rule, ambush works on the entire unit, the end. You have no rules leg to stand on, and haven't even really presented one other than 'ICs can't really join units' (with no basis) and 'ambush only works on the kommandos part of the unit' (with no basis).

**Black Blow Fly**

I have provided the passages from page 48 of the BRB. Nothing more to add here.

G

**insaniak**

Black Blow Fly wrote:I have provided the passages from page 48 of the BRB. Nothing more to add here.

Which would seem to make this post a little redundant.

This isn't going anywhere. Time to move on.